Transformation

[ideasmith]

Re: Transformation

 

I see. I don't have that one, I use FRED (lately, that seems to make me a second class citizen.)

 

I just checked: FReD has the same rule, page 153.

 

Does it have anything else on Spiritual Transform?

 

5eR does indeed have more on Spiritual Transform. Basically, Spiritual Transforms can be based on CV or ECV as the creator prefers. As an optional rule, they can be compared to PRE rather than Body.

 

The palindromedary notes that actually, transforming a man into a demon need not include a physical transformation - it usually doesn't in fact.

 

I think he had the typical comic book demon in mind. For what it's worth.

[Lucius]

Re: Transformation

 

I just checked: FReD has the same rule, page 153.

 

 

 

5eR does indeed have more on Spiritual Transform. Basically, Spiritual Transforms can be based on CV or ECV as the creator prefers. As an optional rule, they can be compared to PRE rather than Body.

 

 

 

I think he had the typical comic book demon in mind. For what it's worth.

 

 

Whaddayaknow. There ARE some official rules after all.

 

I'm surprised they wanted to open that can of worms.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary ponders a khan of wyrms.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Spiritual Transformation

 

Maybe this is just my Buddhist tendencies, but...

 

I have thought of basing spiritual transformation on, not a single characteristic, but the WHOLE CHARACTER. i.e. instead of having to roll double the BOD or EGO, you would roll 1/5 of the character's total points. Including Disads.

 

So if a character was built on 75 pts and had 75 pts of Disadvantages and had earned 10 pts of XP, to successfully transform them spiritually would take a roll of 160/5 = 32.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary compares this to Multiform, among other things.

 

Minus most Foci I assume. Sledge Hammer might be an exception, but I don't think most characters would consider their often carried equipment the GM made them spend points on count as an integrel part of their very essence.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Transformation

 

The rule I'm referring to is on page 238 of 5ER. It reads' date=' in part: "To Transform more than one trait (for example, changing a man into a demon, which affects his Body and his Spirit), a character must buy two or more Linked Transforms."[/quote']

 

This is something that always held more than a little confusion for me. Does this mean you need a separate kind of Transform if you want to affect different aspects of the character sheet, such as separating STR from Psych Limits? The book doesn't really seem to say, though offers some faily plain examples. What parts of the character sheet represent a spiritual change? I suppose I should ask what parts of the character sheet are examples of what can represent a spiritual change?

 

I'm almost thinking there is no way to make an official distincion. For example, there's a character in my Champions game what has "spiritual sorcery", which is a kind of magic that is driven and powered by the soul of the caster. I suppose only a Transform defined as a Spirit Transform could alter that part of his character sheet. Turning him into a frog with a Physical Transform would give him the form of a frog, replacing all of his physical attributes. He'd still have the mind and motivations of a man, and all of his magic. The same Transform done on the mutant would be completely robbed of his powers until he was changed back.

[Lucius]

Re: Spiritual Transformation

 

Minus most Foci I assume. Sledge Hammer might be an exception' date=' but I don't think most characters would consider their often carried equipment the GM made them spend points on count as an integrel part of their very essence.[/quote']

 

Oh? Are you sure?

 

How about perks? These are often social advantages, like having money or status. Is the way OTHER people react to you an integral part of your OWN essence?

 

And what about disadvantages like Hunted or Reputation? Again, these are about how other people feel about your character. Should those points be discounted?

 

Followers and DNPCs are obviously characters in their own right, presumably with their own spiritual reality. Should points spent for/gained for them count in your character's total?

 

What about points for a variable power pool? By your reasoning, if it's a "gadget" pool, then no; if it's a "spell pool" then yes? But what if the spells require material components? And could it not be argued that the character's ability to master his environment with tools (physical or not) DOES represent some part of his "essence?"

 

And should we count XP that hasn't been spent yet?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks it should count, but does the opinion of a palindromedary count?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Spiritual Transformation

 

Oh? Are you sure?

 

How about perks? These are often social advantages, like having money or status. Is the way OTHER people react to you an integral part of your OWN essence?

 

And what about disadvantages like Hunted or Reputation? Again, these are about how other people feel about your character. Should those points be discounted?

 

Followers and DNPCs are obviously characters in their own right, presumably with their own spiritual reality. Should points spent for/gained for them count in your character's total?

 

What about points for a variable power pool? By your reasoning, if it's a "gadget" pool, then no; if it's a "spell pool" then yes? But what if the spells require material components? And could it not be argued that the character's ability to master his environment with tools (physical or not) DOES represent some part of his "essence?"

 

And should we count XP that hasn't been spent yet?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks it should count, but does the opinion of a palindromedary count?

 

I'm thinking it's nothing more than a rough idea that has merrit and many flaws. To answer your questions though...

 

It would depend on the Perk really. Most Perks would not count as being representitive of a character's spirit or essense. Absolutely a character with lots of Contacts and/or Followers has more stake in reality, and perhaps a greater sense of self, but certainly not a greater self. At the very least, paying points for such things can't possibly measure this anyway, as it's expected that most characters will have friends and family that are neither Followers/Contacts or DNPCs. And I can't possibly imagine how the President is more (10 points more) of a person than I am just because he was voted President.

 

Disadvantges of any kind really shouldn't be counted themselves, tough the points gained from then should be.

 

As for individual Powers or Frameworks... Spells that require material components should count, though magic items should not. The dividing line for me would be whether or not the Focus is Personal or Universal, and the reasons for the distinction.

 

Unspent XP should be counted, as it represents potential. If that XP is then spent on a Universal Focus, the potential is gone/spent/used up and not maintained within the character's "self".

 

I don't even know why I'm agruing this... the more I do, the less I like the idea of it.

[Lucius]

Re: Spiritual Transformation

 

I'm thinking it's nothing more than a rough idea that has merrit and many flaws. .

 

Probably a fair assessment.

 

I don't even know why I'm agruing this... the more I do, the less I like the idea of it.

 

Because that's how we all learn, and how we can fairly judge our ideas. It's how we iron out the bugs, or find out that an initially attractive idea just isn't going to work.

 

To respond to some of what you said; maybe the President isn't 10 pts more of a person than I am, just because he got elected (?) President - but is a weightlifter 5 pts more of a person than I am, because he can lift twice as much?

 

And if not my idea - what? Do you really think PRE makes a good benchmark?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suspects we will have to surrender this computer soon...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Spiritual Transformation

 

Probably a fair assessment.

 

 

 

Because that's how we all learn, and how we can fairly judge our ideas. It's how we iron out the bugs, or find out that an initially attractive idea just isn't going to work.

 

To respond to some of what you said; maybe the President isn't 10 pts more of a person than I am, just because he got elected (?) President - but is a weightlifter 5 pts more of a person than I am, because he can lift twice as much?

 

And if not my idea - what? Do you really think PRE makes a good benchmark?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suspects we will have to surrender this computer soon...

I think there is go "good" benchmark, at least when defining good as a single method that applies equally and accurately to all characters in the same genre/campaign. That's a big issue for something that is supposed to be part of the default rules.

 

Of course, we can also spend days poking holes in why BODY doesn't quite work for Physical Transforms. Why would the guy with an Insurmountable Will To Live (+20 BODY) automatically be harder to transform? What about the giant with a large amount of mass, but a fragile frame (and so only has 10 BODY)? Should he be easier to Transform? It's the way the rules work and it works in most cases, so we might as well as pick a Characteristic like was done for Physical and Mental Transforms as a baseline for Spirt Transforms and be done with it. PRE might as well be that Characteristic.

[Lucius]

Re: Transformation

 

Part of what I was doing in poking so many holes in my own idea was to respond to that statement about not counting Focus powers.....kind of saying "once you start poking holes, where do you stop?"

 

You can poke holes in the idea of using BOD, or EGO, too. As for using PRE, I don't think it quite satisfies me - neither does using END, as someone else suggested, as a measure of "life force." If you're measuring "life force" I suspect we're right back to BODy, actually...

 

Perhaps it's just as well that most people don't seem to bother with the idea of the "third option" for Transform at all. It's probably tangled enough sometimes just seperating what's physical from what's mental!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary casts two votes for a dualistic perspective

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Transformation

 

Don't sell yourself short, Lucius. I think it's a fine idea. If foci and other things that aren't attached to one's body aren't included, that sounds more like a Body transform. There's nothing that says that Spirit must be wholy contained within the Body. I think one's friends, relatives, associates, etc., including Followers, Contacts, DNPCs, are a fine reflection of a person's spirit. That's why we refer to some people as "soul mate" or "better half," and why we use such phases as "he/she completes me". Spirit is something a little more nebulous than just the physical attributes and things attached to one's body - that would be Body, or the skills one knows - which would be Mind.

 

Total character points is a fine measure of something supernatural about the character. Yes, heroic and especially superheroic characters are therefore going to have "more" Spirit than normals, but so what? That fits quite well with the source material. It may help to explain why Superman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Captain America, Phoenix, Punisher, Thing, Green Goblin, Lex Luthor, Doctor Doom, Brainiac, etc., all get to die and come back to life, but Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Thomas and Martha Wayne, Harry Osborn, etc., don't.

 

Spirit is something beyond the physical and mental.

[David Johnston]

Re: Transformation

 

However, it would just be such a pain to have one mechanic for physical and mental transforms and another one for "spiritual" transforms.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Transformation

 

However' date=' it would just be such a pain to have one mechanic for physical and mental transforms and another one for "spiritual" transforms.[/quote']

How so? Roll the dice and compare to BODYx2, or roll the dice and compare to CP/5. How much pain could that possibly cause you? We already have different mechanics for Normal and Killing Attacks, as well as Flashes, Entangles, Presence Attacks, Mental Powers, etc. What's the big deal?

[Robyn]

Re: Transformation

 

Don't sell yourself short' date=' Lucius. I think it's a fine idea. If foci and other things that aren't attached to one's body aren't included, that sounds more like a Body transform. There's nothing that says that Spirit must be wholy contained within the Body. I think one's friends, relatives, associates, etc., including Followers, Contacts, DNPCs, are a fine reflection of a person's spirit. That's why we refer to some people as "soul mate" or "better half," and why we use such phases as "he/she completes me". Spirit is something a little more nebulous than just the physical attributes and things attached to one's body - that would be Body, or the skills one knows - which would be Mind.[/quote']

 

Psychic tendrils on the Spiritual Plane connecting each person, place, and object to everything they have ever been associated with. These bonds are tenuous for fleeting associations, more solid for lasting friendships, and resemble foot-thick steel cable for intimate relationships. Some diviners can track from one person/place/object to another through these tendrils, by following them to the other end. Some people are able to exert control over the psychic connections they form, and a few can even sever them once established (it would be very rare, though, to be capable of severing the connections of others, and it should never be possible to perceive or affect any tendrils without access to one end of the tether). The tendrils allow people to share strength with each other; one's Spirit can access that which is important, if it still exists.

[Phil]

Re: Transformation

 

What about the unassuming character? The humble master? The person who conceals their power?

 

Any of those three could or even would have high Spiritual "Body", but low Presence.

 

I do agree in principle, but perhaps the key words are "humble" and "person who conceals". How do you know what PRE someone has if they don't use it. Just as STR60 man doesnt break every little thing he picks up, PRE 60 man doesn't have to appear as a super-charismatic idol.