Linked Powers question (in and out of Power Frameworks)

[Jaxom]

Been thinking about a bunch of different ideas and ran into something that I need to pick apart for better understanding. I'm not sure I get Linked powers as attacks at this point. Below are a number of examples where I *thought* Linked powers was the right answer but when I go to apply it I run into questions.

 

First idea... I want is an attack that has multiple components. E.G. A White Phosphorus Grenade which is 1) An explosion (EB or RKA), 2) Everything catches fire (a Change Environment (ignite stuff)), 3) A big, bright flash on detonation (Flash - Sight Group or maybe Normal and IR sight). Each of these bits can be defined independently as I did above, but is Linked the right way to combine them?

 

My initial idea was to build the explosion, take the Change Environment and the Flash (probably smaller powers) and Link them to the explosion. I *think* that is legal but then when I go to apply the Advantages and Limitations I begin to wonder...

 

Take the initial Explosion. It has lots of Modifiers... Explosion, Range mods as Thrown, Charges, Real Weapon... When you go to add the Linked modifier to the Change Envirnoment or the Flash, do you also add all the relevant modifiers to it? The Flash, for example, is also an explosion but maybe with a different rate of drop-off. The linked powers here also hit whatever the grenade hits so if you miss the throw, everything still happens. Does the Linked imply that there is one attack roll and everything uses the same roll? Since different powers might have different OCV mods for some reason, does this literally mean that the linked powers only hit if the primary power hits? Is there some other modifier that implies this (already defined somewhere, not GM fiat)?

 

Take a different example now... A Weapon with a Life-Stealing aura... Maybe a 2d6 HKA with a linked 2d6 Drain. Now, the Drain only happens if the HKA hits. If the HKA misses, it might miss entirely or hit something inanimate which cannot be Drained. In that case do you still pay END for the Drain (assuming that you didn't buy it off because you argue that you have channel/will the sword to drain)?

 

Ok, now for more fun. If I move to a cool future-tech weapon that uses coherent light, say... I can fire it as a blaster *or* wield a fixed blade as a light-saber. Now, since it is an either-or, this screams Multipower to me. It's one item with a dual-function switch after all. After some consideration, I decide to build it as an AP HKA and RKA with explosion *and* localized flash (ok, bad physics, but it still sounds fun if a bit rubbery). The AP HKA is easy enough, just don't exceed the Active Points in the pool and you are fine. The combined RKA + Flash is an issue though...

 

In more detail... If this is *mostly* an RKA explosion with a bit of flash added, the point differential is huge. You cannot do these as separate powers (say an ultra RKA with 60 Active and an Ultra Flash with 20 Active in a Multipower with an 80 point cap) because then the ranges would wind up different! The flash cannot hit 2/3rds of the targets in range for the RKA. Besides, if they were separate powers you'd roll two attacks. But you cannot Link two powers in the same Multipower (at least so says Hero Designer although I didn't dig through 5ED to find the reference). Is there some other way to link these two which *is* allowed in the Multipower? Do you throw the Flash out of the Multipower? If so, do you then have some other limit which states that the combined RKA and Flash still can't exceed the Active Points of the Multipower or do you just rely on the GM and campaign caps then?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Linked Powers question (in and out of Power Frameworks)

 

The Grenade first:

You would likely link the Change Enviro and the Flash to the RKA. They take all the same modifiers the RKA does (Real Weapon, Explosion, et cetera) to model they are still a grenade plue the Linked Limitation. You make one attack roll, they all go off.

 

The Life Stealer:

If the sword does not hit the Drain does not go off. Now if the Sword must get BODY through and do damage then put an additional limitation on the DRAIN: Sword must do BODY Damage. That way even if you do hit you can't Drain unless you hurt them. What happens with a miss is up to the GM - standard rules are you simply miss and move on.

 

The future-tech weapon:

If you have a MultiPower you can only Link Powers within the same slot - so if you have a RKA that does Flash they are a Compound Power within the same slot of the MP - you need to make sure the MP is large enough to accomodate a slot with both powers Active Points.

 

You cannot Link two slots of a framework or a Slot in a Framework to a Power outside a Framework (and the other way).

 

5ER p311 has rules for Linked and Power Frameworks. All other rules are listed under Linked in the Limitations section (5ER p299-301)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Linked Powers question (in and out of Power Frameworks)

 

Been thinking about a bunch of different ideas and ran into something that I need to pick apart for better understanding. I'm not sure I get Linked powers as attacks at this point. Below are a number of examples where I *thought* Linked powers was the right answer but when I go to apply it I run into questions.

 

First idea... I want is an attack that has multiple components. E.G. A White Phosphorus Grenade which is 1) An explosion (EB or RKA), 2) Everything catches fire (a Change Environment (ignite stuff)), 3) A big, bright flash on detonation (Flash - Sight Group or maybe Normal and IR sight). Each of these bits can be defined independently as I did above, but is Linked the right way to combine them?

 

My initial idea was to build the explosion, take the Change Environment and the Flash (probably smaller powers) and Link them to the explosion. I *think* that is legal but then when I go to apply the Advantages and Limitations I begin to wonder...

 

Take the initial Explosion. It has lots of Modifiers... Explosion, Range mods as Thrown, Charges, Real Weapon... When you go to add the Linked modifier to the Change Envirnoment or the Flash, do you also add all the relevant modifiers to it? The Flash, for example, is also an explosion but maybe with a different rate of drop-off. The linked powers here also hit whatever the grenade hits so if you miss the throw, everything still happens. Does the Linked imply that there is one attack roll and everything uses the same roll? Since different powers might have different OCV mods for some reason, does this literally mean that the linked powers only hit if the primary power hits? Is there some other modifier that implies this (already defined somewhere, not GM fiat)?

 

Take a different example now... A Weapon with a Life-Stealing aura... Maybe a 2d6 HKA with a linked 2d6 Drain. Now, the Drain only happens if the HKA hits. If the HKA misses, it might miss entirely or hit something inanimate which cannot be Drained. In that case do you still pay END for the Drain (assuming that you didn't buy it off because you argue that you have channel/will the sword to drain)?

 

Ok, now for more fun. If I move to a cool future-tech weapon that uses coherent light, say... I can fire it as a blaster *or* wield a fixed blade as a light-saber. Now, since it is an either-or, this screams Multipower to me. It's one item with a dual-function switch after all. After some consideration, I decide to build it as an AP HKA and RKA with explosion *and* localized flash (ok, bad physics, but it still sounds fun if a bit rubbery). The AP HKA is easy enough, just don't exceed the Active Points in the pool and you are fine. The combined RKA + Flash is an issue though...

 

In more detail... If this is *mostly* an RKA explosion with a bit of flash added, the point differential is huge. You cannot do these as separate powers (say an ultra RKA with 60 Active and an Ultra Flash with 20 Active in a Multipower with an 80 point cap) because then the ranges would wind up different! The flash cannot hit 2/3rds of the targets in range for the RKA. Besides, if they were separate powers you'd roll two attacks. But you cannot Link two powers in the same Multipower (at least so says Hero Designer although I didn't dig through 5ED to find the reference). Is there some other way to link these two which *is* allowed in the Multipower? Do you throw the Flash out of the Multipower? If so, do you then have some other limit which states that the combined RKA and Flash still can't exceed the Active Points of the Multipower or do you just rely on the GM and campaign caps then?

 

I think you are confusing Linked with the very similar Only works when.... type of limitations.

 

Linked only means that 1 or more of the powers can't be used at all unless another one is too. differing AOE as in your grenade example are fine. Linking a Flash (with AOE Radius) to an RKA (with no AOE) is fine too. In this case the Flash component can be thought of as a 'side-effect' of the main attack (just like real Lightning and Thunder). You can also add an Only works when.... limitation on top of Linked.

 

A poison Arrow is perfect example of how this is done:

 

Power 1. RKA.

Power 2. EB NND, No Range, Linked to RKA, Only works when target takes BODY from RKA.

 

Regarding the linking of slots in a Multipower...

You can't link 2 seperate slots but you can build multiple individual powers INTO 1 slot (using Linked to save real but not active points).

 

Hope this helps.

[Vurbal]

Re: Linked Powers question (in and out of Power Frameworks)

 

You cannot Link two slots of a framework or a Slot in a Framework to a Power outside a Framework (and the other way).

 

5ER p311 has rules for Linked and Power Frameworks. All other rules are listed under Linked in the Limitations section (5ER p299-301)

You can link a slot to a power that's not in any framework. 5ER has an example of this. What you can't do is link a framework slot to any part of a framework (either the one it's in or a different one), link an entire framework (or multiple slots in the same framework) to the same power or a framework or slot, or link a power to the base cost or reserve of a framework.

[Jaxom]

Re: Linked Powers question (in and out of Power Frameworks)

 

You can link a slot to a power that's not in any framework. 5ER has an example of this. What you can't do is link a framework slot to any part of a framework (either the one it's in or a different one)' date=' link an entire framework (or multiple slots in the same framework) to the same power or a framework or slot, or link a power to the base cost or reserve of a framework.[/quote']

 

This seems to match the way HD3 is implementing things (I knew I could link to powers outside the framework and was wondering if it was a bug)... The concept that is showing up in the HD3 forums is a "Compound Power" which is a new idea to me. I am going to have to go home after work and go searching for the reference.

 

The compound power being discussed seems to be exactly what I want since I was fully intending to stay within the limitations of the power framework but didn't realize that the expectation was putting them into a single slot. Since you can use two ultras as long as their active point costs don't exceed the value of the multipower I figured that was the way to build them. I think that the power I was building when I found this problem was a light manipulator who has a "Nova" power which is a combined EB and Flash inside her "light tricks" Multipower.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Linked Powers question (in and out of Power Frameworks)

 

An Energy Blast and a Flash bought seperatly can be used completly independent of one another. They can also be used together in an Multiple Power Attack (MPA), so long as nither of them violates the rules for an MPA. You CANNOT make MPA's with two slots of a single power framework. This prevents you from buying something like a 150 point pool so that you can use 2 75pt attacks together as a MPA.

 

A EB with a linked Flash can be used two ways. Either as just an EB or as a EB + Flash Combo. The EB could be in a power framework and the Flash could be linked to it so long as the Flash was NOT also in a power framework.

 

A EB/Flash compound power can only ever be used one way: as a combination EB/Flash. Compound powers are essentily a single power. If you wished, you could link the Flash to the EB within the compound power. Since the compound power is essentially a single power, you are allowed to put the whole thing in a power framework, even if you have one part linked to another part. Of ccourse, the total active points of the two powers must be considered in the case of a VPP or MP.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Linked Powers question (in and out of Power Frameworks)

 

You can link a slot to a power that's not in any framework. 5ER has an example of this. What you can't do is link a framework slot to any part of a framework (either the one it's in or a different one)' date=' link an entire framework (or multiple slots in the same framework) to the same power or a framework or slot, or link a power to the base cost or reserve of a framework.[/quote']

ah yah, my bad. This is the correct rule.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Linked Powers question (in and out of Power Frameworks)

 

Jaxom, I think you are using the Linked Limitation more or less correctly with your grenade and life drainer examples. The intracacies are... intracate though. One of the things you might look up is the rules for Multiple Power Attacks. In short, this rules states that if you have two Attack Powers, you can attack simultaneously with them at the same target. That's exactly what you are doing with the grenade and the life drainer. The reason for the Linked is that you must attack with them in this manner. For example, you can't throw just the Flash part of the grenade; when you throw the grenade it must include all of the associated Powers. One way to look at it when buying such Powers is to buy each element separately as if you wanted each to be a separate attack, then apply Linked to each that can't be used alone.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Linked Powers question (in and out of Power Frameworks)

 

Remember that if two (or more) powers must be used with each other, they can all take Linked (the highest Active Point power must take it at a lesser value). If any of them can be used without the others, that power doesn't get the Limitation.