Transforms vs. Mental Transforms

[oryanfactor]

Transform Attacks are required to be Mental Transformations if they inflict Pyschological Disadvantages. Mental Transforms have to be purchased with (BOECV) and (works against EGO). However, it doesn't say that you have to take Mental Transforms to take Physiological Disavantages.

 

The difference between these two Disadvantages should be obvious, but they aren't nesscessarily. Things a Character can't do, like use a phone if from outer space, are Physiological, while things they won't do, like being afraid of phones, are Pyschological.

 

So, how would it work if a Character used "Pyschic Surgery" to Transform a Character so they simply forgot how to use a phone. Its not some thing they don't want to do, they literally have no ability to do so. Sort of like a stroke patient. Is this a Mental Transform?

 

Also, since Transformations must be either Body, Mind or Spirit, and Spirit is personality, while Mind is intellect......wouldn't a pyschological disadvantage Tansform be usable if you affected spirit against the BODY score as opposed to a Mental Transform?

 

weird questions, I know. How do you deal with these things?

 

oryan

[gojira]

Re: Transforms vs. Mental Transforms

 

I'm not sure (I only have Sidekick), but I think one of the regular mental powers is used to edit memories, maybe Mind Control.

 

Of course, Mind Control has a relativly short duration due to the way breakout rolls work, so Transform I guess is the way to affect a permanent change. The way I look at it, Mind Control is a Mental power, and therefore it makes sense that the mental version of Transform is used for a similar, but permanent effect.

 

For historical reasons, I use Spirit Transforms on things that literally operate on Spirits, i.e., a soul. I allow Spirit Transforms for certain types of Astral Projection (ones where your spirit is literally moved to a different plane), possession, exorcism, body switch, etc. I don't use it for personality so much, but I might use it for feelings and emotions.

 

(I also, for historical reasons, require Power Defense to be bought with a +1/2 advantage ("vs. Spirit Powers") to work against Spirit Transforms. This PwrD is still effective against regular Transforms, Drain, Suppress, etc.) This makes Spirit Transforms truly nasty, unless you have the proper defense (usually a rent-a-priest).

[Rapier]

Re: Transforms vs. Mental Transforms

 

So' date=' how would it work if a Character used "Pyschic Surgery" to Transform a Character so they simply [i']forgot[/i] how to use a phone. Its not some thing they don't want to do, they literally have no ability to do so. Sort of like a stroke patient. Is this a Mental Transform?

 

Also, since Transformations must be either Body, Mind or Spirit, and Spirit is personality, while Mind is intellect......wouldn't a pyschological disadvantage Tansform be usable if you affected spirit against the BODY score as opposed to a Mental Transform?

 

Question 1: Yes, that is a Mental Transform. You have altered the memory so that he no longer knows how to use a phone. It would be extremely easy for him to relearn it however. You haven't stopped him from being able to use the phone, he can still pick up the handset and talk...he just doesn't know how to dial.

 

Question 2: Not quite sure what it is you are asking.

[oryanfactor]

Re: Transforms vs. Mental Transforms

 

On question #2:

 

The rules state that all Transforms which cause Psychological Disadvantges must be taken as a Mental Transform, which is bought with specific Advantages. However, all Transforms must affect either the physical body, the mind ot the spirit, the latter defined as "personality".

 

So, if you buy Transform to affect the "spirit", which affects personality, you shouldn't have to purchase Mental Transforms at a much higher price than regular Transforms to affect personality changes. However, you actually do. The 5th edr may contrdict itself here.

 

oryan

[Robyn]

Re: Transforms vs. Mental Transforms

 

You have altered the memory so that he no longer knows how to use a phone. It would be extremely easy for him to relearn it however. You haven't stopped him from being able to use the phone' date=' he can still pick up the handset and talk...he just doesn't know how to dial.[/quote']

 

If you make the character forget how to use their powers, can they still use them?

 

Would you let me take the Mental Transform (affecting self only) "me into me with knowledge of plot clues"?

 

I wouldn't let myself have "me into me with skills", but that's strictly a game balance issue; hints about the plot don't have any point value, unless we want to stat them out too?

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Transforms vs. Mental Transforms

 

The rules state that all Transforms which cause Psychological Disadvantges must be taken as a Mental Transform, which is bought with specific Advantages. However, all Transforms must affect either the physical body, the mind ot the spirit, the latter defined as "personality".

 

So, if you buy Transform to affect the "spirit", which affects personality, you shouldn't have to purchase Mental Transforms at a much higher price than regular Transforms to affect personality changes. However, you actually do. The 5th edr may contrdict itself here.

Interesting point. My take on it would be that although the rules say that Spirit Transforms do not necessarily have to be bought with BOECV, they also note that "in some cases, the GM may require it." (5ER p238). So if all you're doing is making minor changes to someone's personality, that may or may not require BOECV. But if you're making changes large enough to justify a Psych Lim, then you need to pay the points for BOECV. At least, that's the way I read it.

[SSJ Archon]

Re: Transforms vs. Mental Transforms

 

Essentially isn't this putting the -0 disadvantage "Does not know how to use a phone" on the targets Everyman Skill EveryDay Life?

 

Because, in my view, they are effectively putting disadvantages on skills, which have a serious mental component, I would rule this as either a Mental Transform, or build a more permanent form of mind control, such as,

 

Mind Control, Reduced END (0 End), Continous, Uncontrolled, Persistant, Inherant, Standard Effect, So on.

 

On a side note, since they may still remember phone numbers, it might take just an intelligence roll to figure it out, a fairly easy one considering they may still have computers or electronics.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Transforms vs. Mental Transforms

 

I would use Spirit Transforms for anything that involves the 'spirit' or 'soul' - which I don't count the personality as part of, I would use Mental Transforms on your personality.

 

Priest's Blessing: 2D6 Major Transform, Spirit; Tainted Soul to Untainted Soul. "Heals back" by the commitment of further sins on the part of the Blessed.

 

This is the construct I would use to fullfill the requirements to remove the Succubus' power outlined in the Bestiary. Or just expand it to "Unblessed Soul" to "Blessed Soul" to give a character a Holy Effect, perhaps it wears off after a period of time.

 

Mental Transforms is what I would use to change how someone thinks, acts or performs in a psychological manner (memories, psych lims, et cetera...)