"I teleport the criminal's gun out of his hand"...

[Dust Raven]

Re: "I teleport the criminal's gun out of his hand"...

 

Which is of greater value' date=' destroying a target's focus or taking away that focus "poof" and using it yourself against them?[/quote']

From the point of view of the person who took the Focus Limitation, they are equally detrimental. From the point of view of the guy either destroying or taking away the Focus, you need to buy a separate Power to take it away, so it balances itself.

 

I agree completely that it might get REAL expensive to remove powerful items "by power" just as the more powerful items are harder to break using rka's, which is why i am pointing to linking the cost of "taking their focus" to the power of the focus, especially once you have removed their characteristic as an opposition by removing the strength maneuver.

 

"I teleport their focus into the ground, destroying it" could be an RKA, and would be expensive. Doing it by dispel would also be expensive, and both are apporopriate.

Agreed. Though you can use the RKA to also attack things other than Foci and you can use the Dispel to turn off Powers that are not bought as Foci.

 

So "i teleport his gun to me so i can use it" shouldn't be a "level of enemy power independent" super-cheap UAA teleport.

I disagree. Attacking a Focus still has an OCV penalty, and applying UAA to a Power like Teleport is hardly every cheap. You also have to add in Advantages like Ranged if you don't want to be in HTH while using it, and the distance traveled is always limited by the inches bought for Teleport. If you wanted to teleport an object to your own hands, you'd also have to have Possition Shift, which cost lots more because UAA (and possibly Ranged) is applied to it as well.

 

It may still be cheaper than buying a Dispel or such, but then again, having a weapon taken away means you can potentially retreive it rather quickly instead of needing to build or acquire a new one.

 

Heck, if i want a "super-diaarm" why not just buy 1" of teleport UAA NND yahdee yahdee with lims for "only against foci" and spend less than 5 cp?

Sure i gotta be close but, gimme a desolid to abort to and decent timing and viola... one messy situation.

Why not? For the same reason the GM shouldn't allow you to buy Teleport 1" (no Modifiers).

 

taking someone's focus from them is better than just breaking it, in many or most cases. So, it should cost more than destroying it, not less.

 

As I said, I disagree.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "I teleport the criminal's gun out of his hand"...

 

So' date=' a EB+BOECV that still affects PD will pass though a PD Force Wall because it operates on Line-Of-Sight. Unless I'm missing something.[/quote']

 

I don't think line of sight changes the effects of intervening objects in any way. The attack has no range modifiers, but it still passes through the intervening space, so a BoECV attack that is defended by PD should be stopped by a PD force wall.

[The Souljourner]

Re: "I teleport the criminal's gun out of his hand"...

 

Why did you add Indirect' date=' and only at the +¼ level?[/quote']

 

I took indirect because I didn't feel that a teleport power should be able to be blocked by intervening barriers between myself and the target. The +1/4 level is enough to get around pesky barriers, and no other level is really needed - it doesn't matter which direction my teleport power "originates" from when it hits the target, it's not doing knockback or anything.

 

-Nate

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "I teleport the criminal's gun out of his hand"...

 

Which is of greater value' date=' destroying a target's focus or taking away that focus "poof" and using it yourself against them?[/quote']

 

While the logic is reasonable, that Accessible focus can also be Grabbed and used against its owner, even where brute STR would likely not be enough to break a more powerful item. The fact that enemies can take your focus away, and possibly (if it's universal) use it against you, is a drawback of an accessible focus, and one reason the limitation saves points.

 

The Teleport removes the opponent's ability to use STR to prevent the focus being taken away, so it does make it easier. On the other hand, maybe it's also abusive for a high STR character to save a ton of points using OAF with the expectation his STR will prevent anyone taking the focus away.

[The Souljourner]

Re: "I teleport the criminal's gun out of his hand"...

 

"Any BOECV powers that are modified by defenses (such as Energy Blast or Drain) can apply either to their standard defense, or to the character's Mental Defense, at the attacker's option." - 5re, p253.

 

So, a EB+BOECV that still affects PD will pass though a PD Force Wall because it operates on Line-Of-Sight. Unless I'm missing something.

 

Line of Sight just means there's no maximum range, i.e. you can hit anything you can see. It doesn't change the fact that a transparent aluminum wall still blocks the power. The only way to get around intervening barriers is with indirect. (obviously with the caveats of force walls without appropriate defenses blah blah)

 

Whether or not you "aim" with Ego or Dex is irrelevant. Whether or not the target dodges with Ego or Dex is irrelevant. The power is blocked by PD, the Force Wall has PD, therefore the Force Wall blocks the power.

 

(which, by the way, is why I chose indirect. Force Walls shouldn't be able to stop teleportation powers (unless bought with that advantage).

 

-Nate

[The Souljourner]

Re: "I teleport the criminal's gun out of his hand"...

 

The Teleport removes the opponent's ability to use STR to prevent the focus being taken away' date=' so it does make it easier.[/quote']

 

Easier? My power costs 75 points.

 

Telekinesis (80 STR), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (150 Active Points); Only For Disarming (-1) 75 real points.

 

Heck, a 4 point martial manuever gives you +25 strength to disarm, so maybe "only for disarming" should be an even greater limitation, I dunno.

 

And how many people are really going to resist an 80 strength disarm? Maybe the enemy bricks? And how often do they use OAFs?

 

-Nate

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "I teleport the criminal's gun out of his hand"...

 

Easier? My power costs 75 points.

 

Telekinesis (80 STR), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (150 Active Points); Only For Disarming (-1) 75 real points.

 

Heck, a 4 point martial manuever gives you +25 strength to disarm, so maybe "only for disarming" should be an even greater limitation, I dunno.

 

And how many people are really going to resist an 80 strength disarm? Maybe the enemy bricks? And how often do they use OAFs?

 

Given all the things TK can do, I'd suggest Only for Disarming is more than a -1 limitation. Unlike TP UAA, the TK need not have a common defense which neutralizes it. It can also attack quite effectively through a force wall, etc. because it is indirect. The TP UAA must be bought usable at range and have a sufficient maximum range to reach the target, plus enough inches to get the focus back to you.

 

On the other hand, the TK needs to bring the device back to you, where the Teleport already includes that.

 

The level of magnitude is also an issue. As you say, how many people will resist an 80 STR disarm? How many would resist a 40 STR disarm (halving the cost of your TK)? A good field test would be to assess what level of STR you would accept as being the "reasonably common defense" against that TP UAA.

 

Would this be more effectively purchased with lower STR TK and (ranged) martial arts to get a Martial Disarm to go with it?

[tesuji]

Re: "I teleport the criminal's gun out of his hand"...

 

The Teleport removes the opponent's ability to use STR to prevent the focus being taken away, so it does make it easier. On the other hand, maybe it's also abusive for a high STR character to save a ton of points using OAF with the expectation his STR will prevent anyone taking the focus away.

 

Not in my eyes. a focus lim provides for several ways the lim can come into play, not just the one. Different characters will have this occur different ways.

 

A brick with OAf might be able to hold onto his foci better than the flier, but the flier is reachable by fewer people for the grab. However, the brick is likely easier to "attack the focus" to destroy it, given fewer range penalties and more opportunity for being in grab range.

 

The high DCV character is less likely to have the strength, but the high base DCv combined with the OCV penalties for shooting at foci make him more likely to be missed when people go for the focus.

 

the problem ihave with this ongoing discussion is the simultaneous acceptance of "teleport is the way to build this" along with the "but it might produce an abusively low cost and need to be either outright banned or ad hoc in play nerfed" which both lead me to think "tne by definition thats not a correct or successful build."

 

which is what keeps bringing me back to cost relating to the amount of power you are snatching. "How close you have to be" (inches of teleport) is not IMo a good thing to hang the price of this ability on, if "effectiveness ~ cost" is your goal.

 

but, clearly, i am the odd man WAY WAY out here. so... nevermind.

[The Souljourner]

Re: "I teleport the criminal's gun out of his hand"...

 

which is what keeps bringing me back to cost relating to the amount of power you are snatching. "How close you have to be" (inches of teleport) is not IMo a good thing to hang the price of this ability on' date=' if "effectiveness ~ cost" is your goal.[/quote']

 

It all comes down to the focus limitation. You get savings proportional to how much the power with the focus costs.

 

Would you require higher strength to snatch a focus used by a 500 point power than a 50 point power? How much the power costs doesn't affect how difficult it is to take away the focus. And that's the whole reason why an OAF for a 500 point power saves you twice as much as it does for a 250 point power... 'cause you're losing a power twice as big when someone takes your focus.

 

Please look at the build I posted earlier. It's a 75 point power. I made a simialr build from telekinesis that used 80 strength. Even bricks in my campaign would have trouble resisting that... and I didn't even try to get fancy with it. Hell, a strong martial artist guy (30 strength) with a martial disarm can get 55 strength on a disarm.

 

-Nate