Idea Feedback: Manipulation

[schir1964]

Okay, I need some ideas or at least some feedback as to what I'm trying to do here.

 

I want to be able have a stat or value that reflects the different levels of manipulating objects with appendages as it were.

 

Humans of course have thier hands that allow them to manipulate things and monkeys have thier tail they can also use but at much lesser degree. Also, there might be various aliens whose tentacles allow them create silicon circuit chips manually.

 

Now I know I can use bonuses, modifiers, and disadvantages to represent the different things above, but what I want is a centralized mechanic to be able to take a quick glance at and tell what modifiers to apply to any particular task.

 

I was thinking of some type of Manipulation stat or value.

Example:

Manipulation: 10 (Human Hands)

Manipulation: 5 (Monkey's Tail)

Manipulation: 100 (Alien Tentacles)

 

Has anyone done something similar or have another idea on how to do this?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I'm not sure if I understand well enough. What effects are you seeing of this manipulation? You mention the idea of alien tentacles with fine manipulation, and an example you cite is manufacturing silicone chips manually. It sounds like it might be really open-ended, on the high side at least, and not clear as to the boundaries of "manipulation"?

 

Also, wouldn't such an ability logically go so far as manipulation at range, a form of TK sort of? Just a stray thought there.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I'm not sure if I understand well enough. What effects are you seeing of this manipulation? You mention the idea of alien tentacles with fine manipulation' date=' and an example you cite is manufacturing silicone chips manually. It sounds like it might be really open-ended, on the high side at least, and not clear as to the boundaries of "manipulation"?[/quote']

Well, I personally see it working mechanically similar DEX. DEX grants you OCV and DCV that determines how well you can Deliver/Avoid attacks.

 

Manipulation would grant you a similar bonus to handling objects as unified mechanic.

 

Also' date=' wouldn't such an ability logically go so far as manipulation at range, a form of TK sort of? Just a stray thought there.[/quote']

Actually, Telekinesis has it's own adder for "Fine Manipulation", but the system doesn't really give any guideline for how someone is penalized for not having fine manipulation and still trying to accomplish a task that would normally require "Fine Manipulation".

 

For Telekinesis, it might be okay to say, you either can do it or you can't , but for other things such as my character Prism who is made of some type of dense crystal might be able to pick up a piece of obsian rock, but not easily.

 

I'm just trying to come up with a easier method to gage manipulation and also make it easy to read of a character sheet. Right now, such effects can be found as a Disadvantage, Adder, Limitations/Advantages, if such modification exists for the character at all.

 

Does this help any?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Well, kinda, but to me "handling objects" is still really vague. Whereas hitting/avoiding is not. It seems like it could overlap an awful lot with DEX; what is the difference?

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Well as far as I can tell, DEX is used for determining success for handling objects, but only if there is a reason that such a task might fail due to complexity or conditions.

 

Thus DEX grants you your base manipulation for handling objects. But what if you character is worse or better at manipulation only?

 

In many cases where Manipulation might be different than the norm, a Character Disadvantage is used with some penalty value that applies to the DEX roll for manipulation only and doesn't affect OCV, DCV, or SPD.

 

You could also try some sort of Limitation on DEX, but how much is -1, -2, or -3 to DEX Roll for Manipulation Only worth?

 

So what I'm after is some sort of single consistent way of measuring that penalty/bonus (modifier to DEX roll) for both detrimental or beneficial effects of manipulating objects. The modifier would be open ended of course, but how is that modifier obtained and tracked?

 

BTW: Thanks, your questions have helped express what I'm really after. Sort been struggling with how to explain it.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

It's interesting to note since Telepathy's Fine Manipulation is, what, a 5 point Adder, so the value is generally considered low in HERO. I think that's because the end results of manipulation are usually considered more what you pay for if it's anything more than mundane stuff.

 

Anyway, I would think one approach is to consider DEX' many abilities and figure out what portion manipulation might be. I dunno. It's a difficult one. And it will depend a bit on a character basis where it might be made more difficult as the basis of many power rolls, so some characters will make it more utile.

 

Anyway, I tend to think of manipulation as a part of "just dexterity", and as I recall, we typically have seen constructs to break DEX out as 1 point for just DEX, a -2 basically. Theoretically manipulation only is a large subset of that, what, say, half? So like half a point?

 

Or maybe it's better thought of as a skill.

 

I think it's difficult as a deconstruction, as it's something not generally given its own value very much in HERO.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Hero System currently had only three levels of Manipulation: none, rough and fine. A cat's tail has no manipulation, a cat's paw has rough manipulation, and a human hand has fine manipulation. For greater than fine/human hand manipulation, this suggests a Power that makes the task that is impossible with fine manipulation possible. Or, if all you want to do is make a task that is difficult (but not impossible) with human hands easier, you can accomplish that with Skill Levels for that task, or type of task. I've done this last one before for characters with extremely sensitive or agile hands. The ability was bought as Skill Levels with any task requiring Fine Manipulation. They are 5 point levels as they could apply to several Skills.

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I guess I view "impossible with human hands" as more like being something like a DEX roll with a -20 or the like, for example, I don't see it as new to the system, per se.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

You are both correct in how you handle the issue. And that is my point. Regardless of why one might need Super Fine Manipulation or represent Rough Manipulation, there is no unifying mechanic to show what penalties/bonus a character has or to show an innate level Manipulation that is outisde the norm. The current implementation is all over the place.

 

Now as for the Skill idea. Skills are usually available to any character who has a mind to learn it. I don't see Super Fine Manipulation being a skill in this context since it might require biology or mehanical appendages to actually do the task.

 

DEX by itself grants the base norm for Manipulation, but has difficulty in representing different levels of Manipulation outside the norm of the character. In fact, now that I think about it, just because DEX may be 30 doesn't necessarily mean the character is better at picking up a grain of sand. So Manipulation may be a completely separate thing altogether.

 

Anyway, based on what has been said so far, it seems that some sort of Stat or Figured Stat would best represent this since stats cost points for increased ability and gives back points for decreased ability.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I'm not seeing a need for extra granularity here. That may be because I'm not seeing any overlap of the different kinds of manipulation. A limb with Limited (rough) Manipultion simply cannot perform some tasks, while a limb with Find Manipulation can. Certainly there might be some things you can do with Limited Manip and may be easier (or automatic) with Find Manip, but it all depends on the task.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I'm not seeing a need for extra granularity here. That may be because I'm not seeing any overlap of the different kinds of manipulation. A limb with Limited (rough) Manipultion simply cannot perform some tasks' date=' while a limb with Find Manipulation can. Certainly there might be some things you [i']can[/i] do with Limited Manip and may be easier (or automatic) with Find Manip, but it all depends on the task.

Oh, absolutely. This mechanic would be geared towards the Sci-Fi type of campaign where there could be more tasks that need differing levels of manipulation due to the varioius alien ceatures that exist.

 

In such campaigns with various aliens, devices and situations that require having more manipulation would be more common that in a Gritty or Fantasy type of campaign.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Checkmate]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I think I see what he's getting at here. Think of a fertility Doctor. In order to... do his job he needs to have microscopes, needles and microscopic tools (and for some guys that's just to get the sample ). Image if there was an alien who had apendages so tiny, and fine motor skills so well developed he could just pick up the egg and the sperm and stick them both together with his appendages.

 

Now let's go back to Hero's system of None, Rough, Fine. If someone with Rought minipulation tires to pick a lock, he would obviously get minuses. If we use Christopher's new system, should an alien that has better than "Fine" minipulation get a bonus to things like lockpicking?

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Checkmate has it exactly. And it is what I'm struggling with to figure out how such a thing should be handled as a mechanic.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Checkmate]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Well looking at the Extra Limbs power, Limited Minipulation is a 1/4 Disad. You might make players take Extra Limbs with a +1/4 per level of Increased Minipulation. I'm not sure if there is somewhere it says what the minuses are to skills for limbs that have limited minipulation, but you could use the same number and increase it by that for each incriment.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Well looking at the Extra Limbs power' date=' Limited Minipulation is a 1/4 Disad. You might make players take Extra Limbs with a +1/4 per level of Increased Minipulation. I'm not sure if there is somewhere it says what the minuses are to skills for limbs that have limited minipulation, but you could use the same number and increase it by that for each incriment.[/quote']

Yes, but this really doesn't help with determining what the worth the penalty/bonus should be.

 

This is another example of where there is one more mechanic that separated.

 

So we've got Limited Manipulation all over the place:

Character Disadvantage

Telekinesis (Subtractor)

Limbs (Limitation)

DEX (Limitation)

 

But we've got no Increased Manipulation examples anywhere.

 

So if we go with an actual Stat we might have the following:

Manipulation: 0 (Default)

Cost: 3 Points Per 1 Point Manipulation

Manipulation Stat is a direct modifier to handling objects.

 

What this base roll should be is another question.

 

Should it default to a DEX roll?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I think I"m confused on the mission - is it to deconstruct DEX or is it redefining, essentially, DEX?

 

As is, the system uses size and DEX for the sorts of things you talk about re an alien handling a cell, say, personally. Manipulation is part and parcel of DEX: if you have a 30 DEX, I think the system is reasonably straight-forward on this account, personally. If you get down to microscopic or handling other similarly tiny things, then it's really a matter of effective size (shrinking if you are not normally built that way). There might be other considerations, too. Of course, the system would encourage you to ask "why do you want to handle those cells," and if it's for an end result, it's probably some other skill (super-skill) or power. I dunno, I think it's tricky in the system because it's tricky as a game construct, period.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I think I"m confused on the mission - is it to deconstruct DEX or is it redefining' date=' essentially, DEX?...[/quote']

Unfortunately, DEX only plays a part of it. And think it has been used only because there hasn't been any other mechanic even close to meeting that area, so DEX got the job.

 

Extra Limbs gives a Limitation for Limited Manipulation for those limbs. It doesn't mention DEX or anything other than STR in addition to having an influence.

 

Now for some source material references.

 

Star Trek: First Contact

Picard is touching the rocket's surface. Data touches the rocket's surface.

Picard can feel the texture, temperature, possibly dents and grooves.

Data can feel the tiny imperfections of the metal itself and sometime small fractures.

 

Obviously, he has enhanced sense of touch far beyond the normal human.

 

Where is the Enhanced Manipulation if such a creature were cabable of fixing those imperfections or sealing those fractures. There's nothing that says that in Science Fiction such creatures must be small.

 

And DEX offers no advantage for increasing Manipulation.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

The mechanic of being small is not the same as the SFX. One would theoretically get shrinking "only for touch" or such. I'm not forcing that, just saying is all.

 

Sounds more like sense, as to the above thing, it's interesting that the touch sense group's discriminatory doesn't go very far, it only gives "an effect of somewhat cruder degree" than the other senses. Although on reading it I'm not clear on what's meant by "Characters can make Normal Touch (or an entire Touch Sense Group) fully Discriminatory by paying the usual cost."

[Checkmate]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Zorwil,

If you had a character that took Limited Minipulation with a limb, and then tried to pick a lock with that limb, would you allow them to use a regular unmodified DEX roll? Most would apply a minus to the DEX roll to pick a lock with a limb that had the limited minipulation disad. However if you had a limb that had Limited Minipulation and they wanted to swat someone, no modification to the DEX roll. Swatting does not require the finesse that picking a lock does.

 

Now, if there is a way to limit minipulation, shouldn't there be a way to increase the amount of minipulation, which would in essense give a slight bonus to things like Lockpicking that required more finesse.

 

Chistopher,

After typing that out to Zornwil, I thought of this: What about Skill Levels? Do what they did with the new talents and call it Increased Minipulation, but base it off skill levels +1 w/DEX Based skills; Only skills that require Manual Dexterity -1(?). Then you would determine what the minuses would be on a case by case basis. What would the minuses be if a human were to try to pick up a single cell? Determine that and the characters that took Increased Minip would have a bonus to that roll.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I've been thinking about this overnight and something has kind of occured to me. How is doing fine work on a smaller scale, "finer"? It's really just smaller and that's about it. On a smaller scale, there are tasks that someone with rough/limited manipulation could do, if they only had smaller paws (pick up/move an unfertalized egg for example). Since, for humans, doing such work on a small scale would require special tools, I'd suggest simulating an alien having such tools "build in" by buying the appropriate Skill Levels and Senses. If performing a certain Skill (or set of Skills) would normally require special tools, the alien that doesn't need those tools would just buy Penality Skill Levels to offset the penaltiy for not having tools and some Enhanced Senses (perhaps Microscopic) to see what he's doing.

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Zorwil,

If you had a character that took Limited Minipulation with a limb, and then tried to pick a lock with that limb, would you allow them to use a regular unmodified DEX roll?

 

If both limited manipulation and no lockpicking skill, I don't think I'd allow it, barring some other way to pick the lock.

 

If limited manipulation but you have lockpicking skill, I assume you have some SFX to support your lockpick ability, but depends on the character concept.

 

Most would apply a minus to the DEX roll to pick a lock with a limb that had the limited minipulation disad. However if you had a limb that had Limited Minipulation and they wanted to swat someone, no modification to the DEX roll. Swatting does not require the finesse that picking a lock does.

 

Now, if there is a way to limit minipulation, shouldn't there be a way to increase the amount of minipulation, which would in essense give a slight bonus to things like Lockpicking that required more finesse.

 

I don't see what's wrong with additional limited DEX or skill levels specific to "manipulation abilities."

 

Chistopher,

After typing that out to Zornwil, I thought of this: What about Skill Levels?

 

I swear, I didn't see that until after I typed skill levels above!

 

Do what they did with the new talents and call it Increased Minipulation, but base it off skill levels +1 w/DEX Based skills; Only skills that require Manual Dexterity -1(?). Then you would determine what the minuses would be on a case by case basis. What would the minuses be if a human were to try to pick up a single cell? Determine that and the characters that took Increased Minip would have a bonus to that roll.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Okay, I'm going to address everyone's posts with this single one.

 

Dust Raven:

Again, you are absolutely right as a way to handle it for you games. But you came full circle to one of my primary goals. To have a unified mechanic to represent manipulation and easy to reference on a character sheet.

 

This difficulty I'm having is coming up with a mechanic that supports both negative/positive modifiers for the manipulation. A Stat/Skill seems to be the only mechanic that allows for this.

 

Okay, let's look at the ideas again.

 

Skill: Skills are generally available to anyone who wants to learn them. Plus, Skill s don't represent and "innate" ability very well since a skill mainly enhances not reduce your own innate ability to do something.

 

Talent: Thought about this one also and almost suggested it. But to do so, it would have to be unique type of mechanic since Talents should be beneficial and not detrimental. So we have a problem with repensenting a innate penalty with a Talent, just like a Skill.

 

Stat: Stats do represent innate abilities and also allow for negative/positive values.

 

Now if someone has a single unified construct in mind (Skill/Talent/Stat), please post it and I'll certainly look it over.

 

Note: Manipulation by itself shouldn't automatically grant a character a skill, just the ability to do something that might require tools or special appendages to accomplish. So Manipulation could be viewed as some sort of combination of DEX and Limbs with the current system. Manipulation requires that you have both.

 

Is there a reason why everyone is either ignoring or opposed to using a Stat to represent Manipulation?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Checkmate]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

A lot of times, people like to add stats for things that are already in the game (Blood Pool when we already have END things like that), so I shy away from this until there is NO other way to do it.

 

I think I like my first way best. If you have limted minipulation it's a -1/4 or physical limitation, and -3 (just made that number up) per level. If you have Imporved Minipulation +1/4 (either on Extra limbs, or naked based on Extra limbs) and it's +3 per level.

 

That's how I'd handle it. The real reason I'd stay away, is: How often is this actually going to come up? I don't see it being an issue very often, so why compicate something or add something to the game which will only really have an effect once in a great while.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

A lot of times' date=' people like to add stats for things that are already in the game (Blood Pool when we already have END things like that), so I shy away from this until there is NO other way to do it.[/quote']

I have no problem with that. I would expect this stat to only be used in Sci-Fi Campaigns that would need such thing more often. Just like Zornwil's Supernatural Stat that he uses for his campaigns.

 

I think I like my first way best. If you have limted minipulation it's a -1/4 or physical limitation' date=' and -3 (just made that number up) per level. If you have Imporved Minipulation +1/4 (either on Extra limbs, or naked based on Extra limbs) and it's +3 per level.[/quote']

That would work, but I don't like Extra Limbs as it is defined in the book. And if I just want to apply this modifier to the character's normal limbs, I then have to come up with sort of rational for how much normal limbs cost. So it gets kind of wonky using this method although I do like it's simplicity.

 

That's how I'd handle it. The real reason I'd stay away' date=' is: How often is this actually going to come up? I don't see it being an issue very often, so why compicate something or add something to the game which will only really have an effect once in a great while.[/quote']

Ever read the Well World books? (8^D)

 

It can be a major item in that type of campaign. One I would love to run with Hero, but due to Human Centric nature of the mechanics, I would end up developing a game that is "Based On Hero" but not really Hero. That's a lot of work just for single Campaign.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Checkmate]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Everything is based on humans, or human-like characters. You need to have a base to start from, and in most campaigns human-like characters are the most prevelant. Everything is judged from that. Anything that is more useful than a human has is costs points, and anything less useful than a human has give back points. If a campaign is one where more things are radically different than human base, come up with a new base (might be easier to come up with a new game system ).

 

It doesn't matter how you price out extra limbs things can still be based off that cost. Let's say you have a humanoid creature with 20 flangies. You want to buy Increased Minipulation for 2 of their limbs. Let's say that you have Extra Limbs cost 5 points per limb. Take a naked +1/4 add based on 10 points.