Idea Feedback: Manipulation

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Everything is based on humans' date=' or human-like characters. You need to have a base to start from, and in most campaigns human-like characters are the most prevelant. Everything is judged from that. Anything that is more useful than a human has is costs points, and anything less useful than a human has give back points. If a campaign is one where more things are radically different than human base, come up with a new base (might be easier to come up with a new game system ).[/quote']

That was sort of my point. (8^D)

 

I wish I could run a Well World campaign with Hero, but it would be to much work.

 

It doesn't matter how you price out extra limbs things can still be based off that cost. Let's say you have a humanoid creature with 20 flangies. You want to buy Increased Minipulation for 2 of their limbs. Let's say that you have Extra Limbs cost 5 points per limb. Take a naked +1/4 add based on 10 points.

Actually, it does matter. Extra Limbs and Normals Limbs should cost the same per unit. But that's not the case and it will never be. The cost of Limbs is probably due to the influence of the Superhero nature of prior editions.

 

But that is neither here nor there.

 

I wouldn't mind applying that DEX, if DEX played a larger role in the Manipulation area.

 

- Christoipher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Okay, I'm going to address everyone's posts with this single one.

 

Dust Raven:

Again, you are absolutely right as a way to handle it for you games. But you came full circle to one of my primary goals. To have a unified mechanic to represent manipulation and easy to reference on a character sheet.

 

This difficulty I'm having is coming up with a mechanic that supports both negative/positive modifiers for the manipulation. A Stat/Skill seems to be the only mechanic that allows for this.

 

Okay, let's look at the ideas again.

 

Skill: Skills are generally available to anyone who wants to learn them. Plus, Skill s don't represent and "innate" ability very well since a skill mainly enhances not reduce your own innate ability to do something.

 

Talent: Thought about this one also and almost suggested it. But to do so, it would have to be unique type of mechanic since Talents should be beneficial and not detrimental. So we have a problem with repensenting a innate penalty with a Talent, just like a Skill.

 

Stat: Stats do represent innate abilities and also allow for negative/positive values.

 

Now if someone has a single unified construct in mind (Skill/Talent/Stat), please post it and I'll certainly look it over.

 

Note: Manipulation by itself shouldn't automatically grant a character a skill, just the ability to do something that might require tools or special appendages to accomplish. So Manipulation could be viewed as some sort of combination of DEX and Limbs with the current system. Manipulation requires that you have both.

 

Is there a reason why everyone is either ignoring or opposed to using a Stat to represent Manipulation?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Of course, as you choose in your game is cool, but as to the idea of a stat for it, I just don't see a lot of use and I see a lot of overlap in most examples, that's the primary problem I have in getting my head around putting energy into it.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Of course' date=' as you choose in your game is cool, but as to the idea of a stat for it, I just don't see a lot of use and I see a lot of overlap in most examples, that's the primary problem I have in getting my head around putting energy into it.[/quote']

This is what is a little frustrating.

This isn't about whether the system can adequately handle manipulation. Obviously, it can. But the methods to do so are all over the place and difficult to find on a character sheet, because it can be anywhere. (8^D)

 

I think I've made it clear already that I was simply looking for a unifying mechanic that would bring all these things together in a consistent way that would make it easy to refer to on the character sheet.

 

There is a question of the Super Fine Manipulation being absent from the system, but that easily created if need be.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

But more fundamentally, I guess, what the real issue to me, personally, is, what is "manipulation'? SFX-wise of course I understand, but I'm not sure how to quantify it outside of dexterity and what one can reasonably manipulate physically, and it can be used in a myriad of game ways - from shapeshifting to skills.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Okay, I'm going to address everyone's posts with this single one.

 

Dust Raven:

Again, you are absolutely right as a way to handle it for you games. But you came full circle to one of my primary goals. To have a unified mechanic to represent manipulation and easy to reference on a character sheet.

 

This difficulty I'm having is coming up with a mechanic that supports both negative/positive modifiers for the manipulation. A Stat/Skill seems to be the only mechanic that allows for this.

How hard is it to find the following?

 

Super-Fine Manipulation: +2 PSL versus lack of fine tools penalties

 

Increase to suit the level of Manipulation you'd like. The mechanic used is the rules for penalties due to lack of proper equipment (for a human). If a creature has such "tools" built in due to his ability to manipulate things on a finer scale, he buys PSLs to counter it. If he can manipulate things on such a fine scale the human eye cannot accurately see what is being manipulated, Enhances Senses (likely Microscopic) are added. Easy to adjucate, easy to find.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

But more fundamentally' date=' I guess, what the real issue to me, personally, is, what is "manipulation'? SFX-wise of course I understand, but I'm not sure how to quantify it outside of dexterity and what one can reasonably manipulate physically, and it can be used in a myriad of game ways - from shapeshifting to skills.[/quote']

Well, your question is actually a good indicator that Manipulation is a Stat, just like INT, EGO, PRE. END, and STUN. These are easy to understand SFX-wise, but when you come down to quantify them for a mechanic... what are they really? (8^D)

 

You created a Supernatural Defense stat. Why? Doesn't EGO already cover this and doesn't the system also handle this SFX in a myriad of ways? (8^D)

 

Manipulation is no different. Not much more I can say I guess.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

How hard is it to find the following?

 

Super-Fine Manipulation: +2 PSL versus lack of fine tools penalties

 

Increase to suit the level of Manipulation you'd like. The mechanic used is the rules for penalties due to lack of proper equipment (for a human). If a creature has such "tools" built in due to his ability to manipulate things on a finer scale, he buys PSLs to counter it. If he can manipulate things on such a fine scale the human eye cannot accurately see what is being manipulated, Enhances Senses (likely Microscopic) are added. Easy to adjucate, easy to find.

Yes, but do -PSLs give you back points?

 

Again, the goal: One unifying mechanic to represent different Penalty/Bonuses for easy reference.

 

Perhaps PSLs might work but I'm not sure how the negative levels would work?

 

Can you give me more?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Well, your question is actually a good indicator that Manipulation is a Stat, just like INT, EGO, PRE. END, and STUN. These are easy to understand SFX-wise, but when you come down to quantify them for a mechanic... what are they really? (8^D)

 

You created a Supernatural Defense stat. Why? Doesn't EGO already cover this and doesn't the system also handle this SFX in a myriad of ways? (8^D)

 

Manipulation is no different. Not much more I can say I guess.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I'm not suggesting it's different "in your game" as I said earlier, I just can't get how it's going to be really applied in a way that, to me, would feel like DEX shouldn't be cheaper to compensate for having removed it, or some other similar sensation wtih overlapping skills (and would you define manipulation-based skills such as Lockpicking as no longer eligible to draw on DEX?).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Yes, but do -PSLs give you back points?

 

Again, the goal: One unifying mechanic to represent different Penalty/Bonuses for easy reference.

 

Perhaps PSLs might work but I'm not sure how the negative levels would work?

 

Can you give me more?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Well, currently, less than full, humanlike, fine manipulation is a Disad, or a Limitation on Stretching or Extra Limbs is it only applies to those and is only rough manipulation (no manipulation would make these Powers completely useless). TK comes with rough manipulation automatically and needs an Adder to be made Fine. Better than full, humanlike, fine manipulation is bought with Skill Levels.

 

To unify Manipulation under a single mechanic, you need to change all of the above and keep it balanced and fair. That sounds like a lot of work and you're welcome to it. I'm happy the way things are. Issues of how manipulable something is or isn't don't come up often enough for me to worry about which mechanic I'm using.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I'm not suggesting it's different "in your game" as I said earlier' date=' I just can't get how it's going to be really applied in a way that, to me, would feel like DEX shouldn't be cheaper to compensate for having removed it, or some other similar sensation wtih overlapping skills (and would you define manipulation-based skills such as Lockpicking as no longer eligible to draw on DEX?).[/quote']

Hmmm.... after thinking about this for a while this is what I think...

 

In Superheroic games, DEX has very little to do with actual Manipulation (via touch through appendages). The reason being that a person with no hands can be just as Dextrous without them. His eye beams aren't affected by no having Hands, therefore his OCV, DCV, and Initiative are all still intact.

 

There are only two things that in the book that even suggest that manipluation is association with DEX.

 

1) DEX description mentions, "anything that requires a fine touch or a steady hand"

2) Lockpicking Skill was assigned the Agility group.

 

in the first the mention of "Fine Touch" and "Steady Hand" would suggest manipulation, but in actuality it doesn't really have an effect, at least not by what I mean by "Manipulation".

 

For instance, a character can have Fine Touch or Steady Hand, without having hands. Somone who is wheelchair bound can have a Fine Touch in that they have fine control over the mechanism that controls the chair. By the same token, someone without hands could still be sharpshooter with a weapon mounted to his arm and thus have a Steady Hand.

 

The second appears to be simple after the fact assignment since DEX used the words "Fine Touch" and "Steady Hand". Makes sense, given the lack of any other choice available.

 

So I guess Manipulation has more to do with the type of appendage. It's well known that the opposable thumb allows one to manage certain feats where a lack of one would be very difficult. If one had two opposable thumbs perhaps certain other feats would be even easier, but this is speculation.

 

So, to me the system doesn't really show an association between DEX and Manipulation except in one instance, Lockpicking, but really shouldn't if there is were an alternative for Manipulation.

 

Just Some Meanderings

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Do you think you're taking fine touch and steady hand too literally? All the effects you describe with the wheelchair and without hands are still DEX-related, the shooting is based on OCV which is DEX-based, the control over the wheelchair sounds like a matter of dexterity to me - just isn't fingers, it's the control of the mind over physical timing and coordination. You'd use DEX the same way for toes, elbows, etc..

 

PS - furthered by the fact that, as you say, eye beams shooting are realy DEX-based, too, just not hands.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Do you think you're taking fine touch and steady hand too literally? All the effects you describe with the wheelchair and without hands are still DEX-related, the shooting is based on OCV which is DEX-based, the control over the wheelchair sounds like a matter of dexterity to me - just isn't fingers, it's the control of the mind over physical timing and coordination. You'd use DEX the same way for toes, elbows, etc..

 

PS - furthered by the fact that, as you say, eye beams shooting are realy DEX-based, too, just not hands.

Well, here's the problem with that point of view, not that it doesn't make sense, but that the rules kind of fight against each other when it comes to defining manipulations.

 

Eye Beams and the ability to hit the target is a DEX based (OCV), granted. But how does Manipulation even factor into this. If you can see the target you can shoot and hit the target.

 

So let's presume that the character has 20/20 Vision. But he is clumsly and horrible with balance and has a low DEX to represent his clumslyness and shaky hands.

 

The character can still see just as well at 20 feet as before and if his power is, "Laser Beams shootout out my and hits whatever I'm looking at", then DEX has little to do with this power, but Manipulation of the Eyes do. Now what if the character's perception actually helps him hit the target. Now we are looking at INT as majore roll via the rules. So now we have INT and DEX fighting against each other for Eye Beams.

 

So is Focusing ones Eyes considered DEX or INT?

 

The same thing could be applied to "Steady Hand". What if EGO were actually a better definition to represent, "Iron will to hold one's hand still even while in excruciating pain", we now have DEX competing with EGO for a "Steady Hand".

 

I see all these things as form of Manipullation that isn't specific to one Stat listed as is.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I guess, with all due respect I just don't see that.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I guess' date=' with all due respect I just don't see that.[/quote']

Well there is no reason for you to have to see that. (8^D)

Why? Because I doubt you would have a need for such detail (Well World Campaign).

 

Just like I, up to this point, have rarely had a need for Hit Locations. Never used them, and never had a need for them. I've pretty much run four color superhero campaigns with the Champions/Hero system.

 

I just don't see how DEX actually has any substantial impact on manipulation with the rules as is. Only one skill would qualify as fine manipulation. DEX has more to do with ones whole body than any one part.

 

It also just occured to me that Manipulation is closely tied to the Touch Sense.

So perhaps Manipulation would grant bonus/penalties to the Touch Sense which should have a direct impact on the Lockpicking skill and any other skill that would require Super Fine Manipulation.

 

Have to think on that one for a bit.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

The thing is, I just don't see how you can't see that manipulation is a subset of DEX in the rules as is. I don't mean that in any argumentative way, I mean it rather literally. We just come at this with fundamentally differeing interpretations of the useage and meaning of manipulation in HERO terms. Of course a steady hand "could" be a matter of EGO and could be defined as such, as could just about any sort of number of variations among how things are executed, but a steady hand = DEX to me quite clearly. If a character's eye beams shoot and things, that's DEX, any manipulation of his eyes being part and parcel. Of course, if PER plays a roll, that's additional or substituting, sure.

 

Again, not to convince you of anything or to suggest you shouldn't make manipulation something like a basic or derived char as you please if it helps you do things, just stating the difference.

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

On a related note, I do agree that from a building block perspective the system would be more elegant/simpler potentially if we defined characteristics more as needed, as Doc Democracy has mentioned elsewhere. So whether it's "I'm steady-handed" or "I have fine manipulation" or whatever, if we define those as such instead of resting on these black box characteristic devices we now have, it would be clearer in this respect.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

The thing is, I just don't see how you can't see that manipulation is a subset of DEX in the rules as is. I don't mean that in any argumentative way, I mean it rather literally. We just come at this with fundamentally differeing interpretations of the useage and meaning of manipulation in HERO terms. Of course a steady hand "could" be a matter of EGO and could be defined as such, as could just about any sort of number of variations among how things are executed, but a steady hand = DEX to me quite clearly. If a character's eye beams shoot and things, that's DEX, any manipulation of his eyes being part and parcel. Of course, if PER plays a roll, that's additional or substituting, sure.

 

Again, not to convince you of anything or to suggest you shouldn't make manipulation something like a basic or derived char as you please if it helps you do things, just stating the difference.

No convincing is necessary. (8^D)

 

I understand why one would think that Maipulation is a subset of DEX. Any action that uses OCV will have to use some level of Maipulation. Thus, any real weapon or power that emits from the hands specifically will require some level of manipulation. But that is where the tie of Manipulation and DEX ends.

 

Actually, just ran across something that suggests that the Hero System actually separates Manipulation from DEX completely. Apparaently, Manipulation is directly tied to the abilities granted by Human Hands specifically.

 

Under Extra Limbs, they give a Limited Manipulation limitation for limbs, but then in the next paragraph:

If the Extra Limbs cannot exercise a character's full STR or DEX, the character may take a -1/4 Limitation on those Characteristics to reflect that...

 

So it seems that the rules separate out Manipulation from what DEX itself grants a character. However, when it comes to STR they specifically make sure you know that you must apply the limitations to the STR stat and not the Extra Limbs power.

 

This is what I was getting from the research of the rules, but this paragraph just cinched it.

 

- Chirstopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

On a related note' date=' I do agree that from a building block perspective the system would be more elegant/simpler potentially if we defined characteristics more as needed, as Doc Democracy has mentioned elsewhere. So whether it's "I'm steady-handed" or "I have fine manipulation" or whatever, if we define those as such instead of resting on these black box characteristic devices we now have, it would be clearer in this respect.[/quote']

Yes, and that is what prompted me to research this. If I were to run a "Well World Campaign", DEX isn't going to cut it for Manipulation and with most modifiers for it strewn all over the place, it would make it hard to reference easily.

 

BTW: I think that the description "Steady Hand" for DEX was a mistake. I think they meant "Steady Aim" to be more precise. A character who is simply a round ball and shoots lazers could have a "Steady Aim", but no manipulation as normally think of.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

No convincing is necessary. (8^D)

 

I understand why one would think that Maipulation is a subset of DEX. Any action that uses OCV will have to use some level of Maipulation. Thus, any real weapon or power that emits from the hands specifically will require some level of manipulation. But that is where the tie of Manipulation and DEX ends.

 

Actually, just ran across something that suggests that the Hero System actually separates Manipulation from DEX completely. Apparaently, Manipulation is directly tied to the abilities granted by Human Hands specifically.

 

Under Extra Limbs, they give a Limited Manipulation limitation for limbs, but then in the next paragraph:

 

 

So it seems that the rules separate out Manipulation from what DEX itself grants a character. However, when it comes to STR they specifically make sure you know that you must apply the limitations to the STR stat and not the Extra Limbs power.

 

This is what I was getting from the research of the rules, but this paragraph just cinched it.

 

- Chirstopher Mullins

I'm not sure I understand how the example says that - it simply says extra limbs are limited if they can't use DEX and STR. Without spending any extra, you get all the benefits. The rules on extra limbs, as you know, are not only vague but don't address any mechanical aspects of the limbs one would expect, such as extra attacks. They do allow some mechanical aspects which is some sort of vague "extra arms"; extra limbs are their own sort of black boxes, I do grant. As such, they are hard to derive much from.

[zornwil]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Yes, and that is what prompted me to research this. If I were to run a "Well World Campaign", DEX isn't going to cut it for Manipulation and with most modifiers for it strewn all over the place, it would make it hard to reference easily.

 

BTW: I think that the description "Steady Hand" for DEX was a mistake. I think they meant "Steady Aim" to be more precise. A character who is simply a round ball and shoots lazers could have a "Steady Aim", but no manipulation as normally think of.

 

- Christopher Mullins

Can you give more examples of the nuances of manipulation in Well World, just so I understand what makes this setting unique?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Can you give more examples of the nuances of manipulation in Well World' date=' just so I understand what makes this setting unique?[/quote']I can't speak to all the particular nuances that he might be thinking of, but the Well World is inhabited by 1560 different races, of which 780 are carbon-based lifeforms and 780 are not. Each has its own individual biosphere with its own environmental conditions, enforced technological level, and so on. The vast majority of even the carbon-based lifeforms are not even vaguely humanoid, and as for the non-carbon-based ones... the sky's the limit. Really wierd stuff. Some of these races... both carbon-based and otherwise... have very unusal abilities (by human standards). Psionics, some "magic", camoflague that verges on invisibility, shape-shifting, and so on. Some of them can do things like operate on individual living cells, or even DNA sequences, without external tools or artificial aids.

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Dr. Anomaly summarized it quite well.

 

The major point is, any of these races would available for any Player Character to become, since I would probably follow the same story line path of many of the books:

 

1) Characters live in normal space and are generally human or humanoid.

2) Characters get wisked off to the Well World due to unkown circumstances.

3) Characters get processed by the Well World computer and get transformed into one of the races.

4) Campaign ensues...

 

Trying to even attempt to model some of the Carbon-Based Lifeforms would be very difficult even for Hero. This is mainly due to the Human Centric bias the stats are based on.

 

It would be a lot of work to model the Campaign after the Well World and would be well worth it, but the races are the crippler for Hero.

 

A few descriptions of some of the Carbon-Based races:

Giant Flying Squirrels

Walking/Talking Trees

Mermen/Mermaids

Abomnible Snowmen

Centuars

Humans

Giant Beavers

Lizard Men

Cow Creatures (Six Legs, No Human Hands)

Ant-Like Creatures

Pygme Plant Creatures

Willo-the-Wisp Creatures

Dryad/Siren Type Creatures (Physical Not Necessarily Human)

Gelantenaous Type Creatures

Snake Men

ShapeShifter Creatures

Pteradactyl Type Creatures

Blue Furred Satyr Like Men (Cloven Feet, Human Hands, Rides Pegasus Type Creatures)

Markovians (Heart Shaped with Six Tentacles)

...

 

Many can be modeled easily, but some or more difficult, and few a are extremely difficult.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

I'm not sure I understand how the example says that - it simply says extra limbs are limited if they can't use DEX and STR. Without spending any extra' date=' you get all the benefits. The rules on extra limbs, as you know, are not only vague but don't address any mechanical aspects of the limbs one would expect, such as extra attacks. They do allow some mechanical aspects which is some sort of vague "extra arms"; extra limbs are their own sort of black boxes, I do grant. As such, they are hard to derive much from.[/quote']

I think it is very obvious.

 

Extra Limbs give a specific Limitation to apply to Extra Limbs to represent Limited Manipulation.

This is completely separate from the Limitations that must be applied to DEX if the Limbs don't have everything that DEX normally grants Extra Limbs...

Therefore, Limited Manipulation (or just Manipulation) must not be part of what they expect DEX to grant Extra Limbs or the limitation would have been applied to DEX instead of Extra Limbs.

 

That is my reasoning.

 

It is further enforced by the fact that nothing concerning STR as far as "Limited STR" is applied to Extra Limbs, but is applied to STR directly.

 

I think it is obvious, but perhaps I'm just jumping to conclusions. Could be just something completely arbitrary that was done in the rules. It's happened before. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Bump.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Idea Feedback: Manipulation

 

Bump.

 

- Christopher Mullins