Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

[Hierax]

Has anyone worked out a system for Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

Or, more generally, for any equipment or objects taking damage and gradually losing their effectiveness in steps and/or totally breaking?

 

Thanks!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

Deh... sorry to ask the obvious, but are you referring to Ablative? Rules for that are already in the bewk. 5ER, 115. s'a'limitation, basically creating a declining activation roll.

 

Sounds like precisely what you're looking for.

[Eosin]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

Really, I use the rules in FH. They are balanced and work well. You need to read them carefully cause they throw some wonkers at your (it isn't damage, it's DCs that matter for shields and the like).

[Hierax]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

No, not like Ablative.

 

Anything more like the DC vs. DEF doing BODY thing in FH like Eosin mentioned.(FH-5e.189)

 

I'm trying to work out an ultra-detailed version that compares the type of damage being done vs. the type of material's Defense -- be it another weapon parrying, a shield blocking, armour interposing, or just some object being hit.

 

I don't think anyone else has bothered to do this with the HERO System but still I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask...

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

Ahh yes, the old UO "macing weapon" bonus where you can break their armor quicker. Sounds interesting but might be a bit of paper work. Besides, everybody will just carry an extra sword around if it gets to be a hassle. I guess if you want to be that realistic, then go for it.

[Eosin]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

No, not like Ablative.

 

Anything more like the DC vs. DEF doing BODY thing in FH like Eosin mentioned.(FH-5e.189)

 

I'm trying to work out an ultra-detailed version that compares the type of damage being done vs. the type of material's Defense -- be it another weapon parrying, a shield blocking, armour interposing, or just some object being hit.

 

I don't think anyone else has bothered to do this with the HERO System but still I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask...

 

Sounds yummy.

[Hierax]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

Ahh yes' date=' the old UO "macing weapon" bonus where you can break their armor quicker.[/quote']

 

Sorry, "UO" doesn't even ring a bell, can you tell me more?

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

Sorry' date=' "UO" doesn't even ring a bell, can you tell me more?[/quote']

 

UO was/is Ultima Online, an early (the first?) Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMORPG). The 'Mace bonus' I believe was a system wherein maces damaged an opponent's armor faster that other weapons.

 

Edit: Now about the original topic, I'm not using a formal system for item breakage. I'm using what I like to call the first edition Star Wars blaster ammo rule. The blaster runs out when the GM decides its a good time for it to run out. I basically use the same call for weapon, armor, and shield breakage. IMO if you formalize the system then you run the risk of a critical breakage occuring at an inopportune time in the plot or visa versa. (Also I'm lazy). Any work you put into it I would applaud, but probably not use.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

Well, I have a fairly detailed system for assigning Body totals to weapons, armor and the like built as Foci, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. But I'll spell it out if you're interested.

[Hierax]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

Well' date=' I have a fairly detailed system for assigning Body totals to weapons, armor and the like built as Foci, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. But I'll spell it out if you're interested. [/quote']

 

Yeah, it's just the kind of thing that I need.

 

I need to work out DEF and BODY values for materials (it's useful to see the values other people have used not just the official book values) and then extrapolate them to differ with the various types of attacks.

 

e.g., cloth or leather, has bad defence vs. blunt attacks for the wearer but is hard to break it by bashing. That kind of detail with many permutations and combinations is what I'm going for but I want to compare the more basic straight DEF/BODY values in other peoples systems to get my average values to work from for the more detailed versions.

 

Thanks for all the help!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

All right, Hierax, let me gather my thoughts and try to set down what I do.

 

My system is mostly extrapolated from the standard rules for breaking Foci, so let me just quickly recap those rules for reference purposes:

 

A Breakable Focus has Resistant DEF (Physical and Energy) equal to the Active Points of its largest Power/5 (or [AP/5]x2 in the case of Durable Foci; I'll deal with Durable and Unbreakable a little later). The minimum DEF is 3. Any attack whose BODY damage exceeds the DEF of the Focus destroys one Power of the Focus. The Focus is considered broken when all of its Powers are destroyed, or when a single attack does 2x its DEF in BODY damage.

 

A Focus which confers a Defense Power larger than its own can use that to defend itself from being broken. You can also buy a Defense Power specifically to protect the Focus, with an additional -2 Limitation over and above the relevant Focus Lim.

 

Okay, now to my system:

 

---------------------------------------

 

Starting DEF and BODY of Foci: A Breakable Focus starts with a DEF equal to the AP of its largest Power/5 (double that for Durable Foci). It starts with a total BODY equal to the number of separate Powers that it possesses. A Multipower counts as a single Power for this purpose.

 

You can "trade off" the DEF of the Focus for BODY, or vice versa, at the time you design the Focus. Each point of BODY/DEF that you add to the Focus reduces the DEF/BODY by one point. The DEF of the Focus can never be reduced below 3, and the BODY total of the Focus can never be higher than the remaining DEF.

 

If the Focus has a Defense Power that's higher than its own figured DEF, that Power is used to calculate whether any BODY damage is done to the Focus. The Defense Power can never be bought down to increase the BODY of the Focus.

 

Breaking Foci: Any attack whose BODY damage exceeds the DEF of a Breakable Focus destroys the amount of the Focus's BODY equal to the damage that gets through. The Focus is considered broken when all of its starting BODY is gone; at that time all of its Powers cease to function. The Focus is considered irreparably destroyed after losing 2x its starting BODY.

 

The Focus does not lose the function of any of its Powers until all of its starting BODY is destroyed. However, if any single attack destroys all of the Focus's remaining BODY, all of its Powers cease to function immediately.

 

Buying more DEF and BODY: You can purchase additional DEF for your Focus over and above its starting DEF, which adds to its starting DEF. The cost of this additional DEF is based on the Armor Power, i.e. 3 Base Points for +1 rPD and rED. These Base Points are Modified by the applicable Focus Limitation, plus an additional -2 Lim reflecting that the Armor only protects the Focus.

 

You can buy Advantages such as Hardened for the Defense of the Focus. To find the cost of the Advantage, calculate the cost of the DEF of the Focus as though it were the equivalent amount of Armor, and then apply the Advantage to that amount. The Advantage will also be Modified by the applicable Focus Lim, and the additional -2.

 

You can also buy more BODY for the Focus. For the sake of consistency the cost is the same as for DEF, i.e. 3 Base Points for +1 BODY, Modified by the Focus Lim and the additional -2. The BODY score cannot be bought higher than the DEF of the Focus; its DEF would have to be bought up to at least match the desired BODY total. Any Defense Power bought through the Focus which exceeds the Focus's own figured DEF does not count toward calculating that BODY maximum.

 

Durable and Unbreakable Foci: According to the official rules, there is no cost difference in defining your Focus as Durable or Unbreakable rather than Breakable. The description of Focus states that the benefits and drawbacks balance out, but does not elaborate on what those benefits and drawbacks are, leaving the decision largely to GM's discretion.

 

I decided to make the drawbacks relate to the ease of repair or replacement of the Focus. For this I drew a parallel with Expendable Foci, where the value of the Limitation increases with the difficulty of replenishing the materials expended.

 

In my system, the increasing durability of a Focus is directly proportional to the difficulty of repairing or replacing it. Thus for a standard Breakable Focus, restoring it is relatively easy. It's assumed that replacements are usually readily available, or that the materials and skilled personel needed to repair it can easily be found. (Of course these things may not be available depending on where a character is at the time his Focus is damaged.)

 

A Durable Focus may be assumed to be constructed of unusual or particularly high-quality materials, and/or be the product of exceptionally gifted craftsmen. In this case repairing or replacing the Focus may require a longer period of time, much more money, and/or some difficulty or danger in getting the needed resources.

 

An Unbreakable Focus can normally only be destroyed by one pre-defined condition. Should it be broken, repairing or replacing it should be a major undertaking, requiring any combination of: a fortune in cost, the assistance of a unique being, a lengthy period of time during which the Focus is unusable (perhaps involving some type of quest), or great difficulty or danger in obtaining the needed resources.

 

These default conditions do not change the amount of the Focus Limitation.

 

EDIT: As a balancing factor, a Breakable Focus whose DEF has been bought to two or more times its figured DEF is treated as a Durable Focus for purpose of repair or replacement. A Durable Focus whose DEF has been bought to two or more times its figured DEF, or a Breakable Focus bought to four or more times its figured DEF, is treated as an Unbreakable Focus for that purpose.

 

------------------------------

 

Well, that's how I do it. I hope that was clear, but I'll be glad to explain any point that needs clarifying.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

Whew, that's a mouthful.

 

I think Cosmo was right. Just have stuff break when you think it's appropriate. Just do a judgment call based on how long they've been using it or how much damage it's helped to prevent.

 

PS: Cosmo was also right about UO. Maces destroyed armor faster but couldn't be poisoned like bladed weapons.

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

Yeah, it's just the kind of thing that I need.

 

I need to work out DEF and BODY values for materials (it's useful to see the values other people have used not just the official book values) and then extrapolate them to differ with the various types of attacks.

 

e.g., cloth or leather, has bad defence vs. blunt attacks for the wearer but is hard to break it by bashing. That kind of detail with many permutations and combinations is what I'm going for but I want to compare the more basic straight DEF/BODY values in other peoples systems to get my average values to work from for the more detailed versions.

 

Thanks for all the help!

 

There was a game called Arduin that had an enormously complicated chart for this kind of thing. There were something like 12 types of armor, and hundreds of weapons. Each weapon got a ± adjust against each type of armor.

 

An enormous PITA, and nearly everyone who played Arduin ignored it. Still, if that's your bag, you could look for a copy of the game....

[Hierax]

Re: Armor, Weapon, and Shield Durability/Breakability?

 

As you mention it, Arduin has this kinda thing in the 1977 and 1980 versions (but not in the Revised and Compleat versions, IIRC).

 

Lotsa old school games have this kinda thing. AD&D 1e, AD&D 2e, Hackmaster, etc. but yeah that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Well, a bit more complex than that but basicly, yeah.

BTW, as an aside, it's not really that burdensome unless you try to read it off of the tables each time -- in AD&D the Weapon to Hit Adjustments vs. Armor Type are simple to put on a proper character sheet and in Hackmaster it's also a snap especially if you use the Combat Wheel.