Nightman and Nightgirl

[Mark Rand]

Gotham City has Batman and his associates. Millennium City has The Champions. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania has Nightman, Nightgirl, and their team mates (the PCs).

 

The campaign uses the Dark Champions: TAS rules and is set in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in a universe of my own creation.

 

Nightman and Nightgirl are friends of Doctor Arcane and, probably, know of Solara. She might have heard of them.

 

Their lair, the Nightcave, exists in a pocket universe that also acts as a training town and has a number of good spots to meditate.

 

The Nightmobile, a tricked out Lamborghini Murcielago, has often been seen rolling into and out of Doctor Arcane's garage.

 

Comments, questions, ideas?

[LordGhee]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

In general a campain that has NPC in the lead (as it seems here) is a bad ideal.

 

pocket universe seems undo compicated, do they have the power skills ect to create it.

 

just some quick thoughts.

 

Lord Ghee

[Mark Rand]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

In general a campain that has NPC in the lead (as it seems here) is a bad ideal.

 

pocket universe seems undo compicated, do they have the power skills ect to create it.

 

just some quick thoughts.

 

Lord Ghee

 

The PCs will have their own cases.

 

As far as the pocket universe goes, Doctor Arcane found it and provided Nightman, Nightgirl, and the PCs with what they need to access it.

[LordGhee]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Well Pocket Universes can be a lot of fun. . . . until

 

the batteries fail,

the exit jams,

the off switch breaks,

the others show up,

 

" if you cannot at least maintain (let alone build) a universe then you should not own a universe." Zamadon (Immortal trans dimensional traveler and superhero), On the defeat of Dark Empath's OZ Flying Monkey army (OFMA-think Nazis like) and the fact the rest of the hero team left her "imprison" there (in the OZ pocket Dimension) in first place.

 

 

 

Lord Ghee.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Since the rights to the land under Southwestern Pennsylvania was bought by a mining company over 200 years ago, Nightman and Nightgirl decided, with Doctor Arcane's help, to go with the pocket universe Nightcave. This is basically a cluster of buildings. I'm not sure what will be there, but it will include a hotel, physician's office, gymnasium, and a science building.

 

It might be possible to have the cave in a sealed-off section of the mines under Southwestern Pennsylvania, but I think a training area in a pocket universe would be cool.

[Lemurion]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

It might be cool, though I don't think it fits the rest of the genre tropes to have a pocket universe.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the next step in the evolution of the idea you had about moving Batman to Pittsburgh?

[Mark Rand]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

It might be cool, though I don't think it fits the rest of the genre tropes to have a pocket universe.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the next step in the evolution of the idea you had about moving Batman to Pittsburgh?

 

Yes.

 

I might replace the pocket universe to a gate that leads to the basement of Doctor Arcane's house. The training town could also connect to said basement.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

The Pittsburgh of the game is based on the real Pittsburgh.

 

In real life, a slots casino and a new ice arena for the Penguins will eventually be built. In the campaign, industrialist Daniel Carter (Nightman) bought the Penguins, then built a hotel/casino and nearby ice agena. The Sports and Exhibition Authority tried to force him to turn it over to them, but the courts wouldn't allow it.

 

Four of the city's bridges are drawbridges. They are the Roberto Clemente Bridge (formerly the Sixth Street Bridge), the Andy Worhol Bridge (formerly the Seventh Street Bridge), and the Rachel Carson Bridge (formerly the Ninth Street Bridge), all crossing the Allegheny River, and the Smithfield Street Bridge, which spans the Monongahela River.

 

Edit: a minor addition. The three Allegheny River bridges, which are owned by Allegheny County, are often known as "The Three Sisters" are identical. Their decks are one meter above the water than the deck of the City of Pittsburgh owned Smithfield Street Bridge.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

I try to avoid being overly critical of other people's work - it's bad form and doesn't always accomplish what you want. This is what I call fair warning, because looking at what you've got here... it's hackneyed, overdone and seems trite.

 

Why "Nightman" etc? Are you afraid DC's gonna come knockin' during a game session? "Pardon us, Mr. Rand? We're with the Detective Comics Enforcement Agency (DCEC) and we'd like you to hand over all your notes, while our associates here tear apart your hard drive and purge all the data you've collected." Somehow I don't see that happening. Just saying, the possibility certainly exists - I just doubt it exists in this timeline.

 

As TAS and it's genre go, here I'll disagree slightly with my counterparts; once "TAS" is mentioned, half the rules go out the window. Suddenly we're going Teen Titans/Batman Beyond, and that's fine! By all means, run the game you want to run, and if that means you have Doctor Arcane & pocket dimensions about, more power to ya. Looking at your first blush pass, though, nothing in here stands out.

 

I don't see a strong hook that would draw me in as a player. I don't see where it really sets itself apart from the other basic cookie-cutter plot concepts which are out there. I'm not intrigued, curious or on the edge of my seat thinking "Wow, damn! Where'd he get THAT one from?" It just seems as though you took some core genre tropes, flipped some words around, and stuck it in PIT.

 

I'm from Philly & went to school at Edinboro. I know how yinz talk. Comparatively, hockey is nothing, Football is everything (although I prefer hockey, I know way more about football and it's a lot easier to keep track of). I don't want to tell you how to run your game, but if you're soliciting feedback, then the first thing I would say is this:

 

"Huh. Kind of tasteless. Did you have an idea as to how you were going to improve this, because I don't think I'd serve it to company. I don't even know if I would eat it."

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Personally, when Im designing things, I subject everything to the five W's and one H of journalism:

 

WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY, and HOW.

 

Ideally I should be able to answer all the questions for every thing Im adding to a setting. Of the six, Why and How are the most important. If I can't answer either one of them, its probably a bad idea straight up. If I can't answer a majority of the six questions, its probably a bad idea.

 

Next off, I always try to have sufficient reasons to add anything important to the setting. In the early stages two reasons might be enough but as things take shape and the total idea gets more complex this rises to three, four, five, etc. Things that arent there for a reason are just filler, and while a setting needs a certain amount of filler, it usually takes care of itself without me littering up the place with the equivalent of idea spam.

 

In otherwords, I very rarely will put anything significant to a setting or storyline in just "because" or "cuz it sounds cool"; I need some solid, internally logical reasons.

 

 

Another useful design tool is to think of things in terms of problems and solutions, and approach design from that perspective. When you first start your design process, you likely have a very broad and general problem, such as "Provide an entertaining forum for fellow gamers to play in", which is typically qualified by conditions or operating parameters, such as "Provide an entertaining forum for fellow gamers to play in, within the [X] Genre and at [Y] general power level".

 

All of your initial design of coming up with the general setting, the basic ideas of that setting, and designing a framework or infrastructure is an attempt to provide a solution to that basic problem. At each level as you progress you will encounter specific, granular problems, and come up with specific, tailored solutions.

 

Many times the solution to one problem will cause other problems and require solutions in turn.

 

In the end, when your design work is done, you have conglomerate of many different solutions to a hierarchical array of problems, which in its entirety is an solution for the initial broad problem. The degree to which it does solve that problem is the degree to which your design is successful.

 

If you evaluate your finished work, such as your Nightman, Arcane, Nightcave arrangement and ask your self "What problem(s) does this solve?" and "What problem(s) does this cause?", you should be able to discern its appropriateness.

 

If the arrangement is not a solid solution to an actual problem, or if as a solution it causes more problems than it sovles, then you need to reevaluate the arrangements appropriateness for your campaign.

[LordGhee]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Killer you know I love you but that hurt.

 

It dose not help that it is late and I have a cold and am dope up with meds.

 

but huh?

 

what did you just answer, why so complex and what was the point and when can you simplefi for my simple mind and how dose this help.

 

(I am working on the where )

 

Love and Kisses

 

Lord Ghee

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

While the man is verbose, he's right. What he answered was the core question: "What do you think of this?" His answer was, instead of 'answering' in the traditional sense, he built on what I'd written previously and introduced the journalistic core questions to the problem.

 

I don't want to speak for him, so accept that his answer was as follows, based on what he said:

 

"If you're going to develop this setting, or any setting, here are some guide lines that I use to get it done. I find asking these questions very helpful to the overall design, and if I can't answer them, I reconsider the idea."

[Mark Rand]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Although I think Batman and Batgirl are cool, moving them to Pittsburgh requires that I keep a lot of the elements that DC Comics created. That's why I created homages to Batman and Batgirl.

 

Doctor Arcane isn't needed. I just thought that it would provide a good cover for his engineer, governmental liaisons, and their families.

 

True, Pittsburgh is a football town, not a hockey town, but there has been a lot of talk in the media about the new arena and keeping the Pens here.

 

I chose Dark Champions Animated over the regular Dark Champions because that's the way Batman is, he fights street-level crime with a four-color attitude.

 

Any thoughts on whether or not a four-color superhero campaign will work in Pittsburgh?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Although I think Batman and Batgirl are cool' date=' moving them to Pittsburgh requires that I keep a lot of the elements that DC Comics created. That's why I created homages to Batman and Batgirl.[/quote']

 

I think that the whole thing would be better served by removing the homages completely, and creating a whole new pair of heroes, possibly without the obvious tie-ins. You have a good start, but you have to get yourself out from under the shadow of Bruce Wayne, et al. So you have a rich, heroic-style super-hero with a CVK whoo's sleeping with his secretary, who happens to know his secret AND helps him fight crime. That's already a start towards full DC, rather than TAS. And it is a good start, but they need redesigned, renamed, and restructured.

 

Doctor Arcane isn't needed. I just thought that it would provide a good cover forhis engineer' date=' governmental liaisons, and their families.[/quote']

 

This is where (IMO) the whole thing started to go South - you were trying to do way too much long before the PCs got involved. If you want to keep Dr. Arcane, etc. in the campaign, that's all well & good. But rather than have 'yet another' super-powered NPC who can overshadow the PCs, use him as a plot hook, a neutral, or even someone they could find themselves going up against in the wrong circumstances. Rather than thinking everything out in advance, start more simply.

 

Here's my concept "team leader" who'll fill the role of Nick Fury - not a combatant himself, but capable in the right circumstances. He's 50 now. Here's his absurdly hot middle-aged (37+) secretary who he has an open affair with. Here's him, passing off the mantle (ala Batman Beyond). C'mon - having the aged master go out into the field to have Something Dramatic happen to him and the PCs have to step-up is classic material.

 

True' date=' Pittsburgh is a football town, not a hockey town, but there has been a lot of talk in the media about the new arena and keeping the Pens here.[/quote']

 

Which is fine, but it's background information, and not something I, as a writer, would spend an abundance of time on. Unless the 'batcave' is located beneath the arena, through a secret entrance in the parking lot sub level, which was built earlier and then "scrapped" because of an "architectural error." Now you have a real cave owned & run by the appropriate party, all without the hassle of the 'mining rights.'

 

On the topic of mining rights: This is fiction. You can write out whatever you like if it's inconvenient if it'll make for a better story. Letting the actual mineral rights of Western PA get in your way is counter-productive. Just sayin'.

 

I chose Dark Champions Animated over the regular Dark Champions because that's the way Batman is' date=' he fights street-level crime with a four-color attitude.[/quote']

 

Less homage, more original material. Homages are what get people in trouble with themselves - they spend so much time focused on doing it "the original way" they utterly fail to see outside of the self-imposed box.

 

Any thoughts on whether or not a four-color superhero campaign will work in Pittsburgh?

 

Er, yeah. Hundreds of them. ANY city is a special effect. All you do with PIT is bust out a map, point to a location, and say "Okay, so your evening starts on the town at (this club). During the evening, (these goons) walk in and everyone near them starts getting edgy and nervous (goons make a natural PRE attack against everyone as a Change Environment because their leader is really Super Villain X). Action & adventure ensue.

 

As I've said before, "ignore" your setting. It doesn't matter against the core story. The setting should promote the story, not the other way 'round. It isn't a travelogue. It's an action game.

 

Let me know if that helps.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

While the man is verbose, he's right. What he answered was the core question: "What do you think of this?" His answer was, instead of 'answering' in the traditional sense, he built on what I'd written previously and introduced the journalistic core questions to the problem.

 

I don't want to speak for him, so accept that his answer was as follows, based on what he said:

 

"If you're going to develop this setting, or any setting, here are some guide lines that I use to get it done. I find asking these questions very helpful to the overall design, and if I can't answer them, I reconsider the idea."

Yep; just giving some design advice. Teach a man how to fish rather than give him a fish, etc.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Killer you know I love you but that hurt.

 

It dose not help that it is late and I have a cold and am dope up with meds.

 

but huh?

 

what did you just answer, why so complex and what was the point and when can you simplefi for my simple mind and how dose this help.

 

(I am working on the where )

 

Love and Kisses

 

Lord Ghee

 

Ok, I dont have time to get super specific here, but an example of what Im saying from the current context would be to say:

 

From the 5W1H perspective:

WHO: are Nightman and Nightgirl

WHAT: is their significance to the setting and the main protagonists

WHEN: are they involved in the storyline and for what duration of time

WHERE: is their lair and "turf"

WHY: are they in the setting (what purpose do they serve)

HOW: do they function and how is their existance justified

 

From the reasons perspective:

What is the reason for their general existance?

 

What do they bring to the story?

 

What benefit or detriment do the serve to the PC's?

 

Are these "Eliminster" GM Pets that know all and can do all?

 

Do they exist as a saftey net / mentors / origin / enablers for the PC's or as rivals to the PC's, or as allies to the PC's, or as superiors to the PC's?

 

Do they enable or distract from the main story?

 

If they were removed from the setting would the setting be better or worse?

I.e. -- how integral are they really? Are they necessary at some level?

 

What logical dependencies do they add to the setting?

I.e. -- if they have a extra dimension base, how does that work? What other xdim places exist? How common are they? Are all xdim spaces consistent in their nature, or do they vary? If they vary, what is the range of variance? How are they created / maintained? Tech, Magic, unknown? What sort of infrastructure has to exist to make this story element possible? Does it enrich the setting or constrict it?

 

and so on.

 

 

From the problems and solutions point of view, I don't know the thought processes MR went thru so I can only speculate, but working backwards from what he has told us, I can ask:

 

What problem(s) are Nightguy, Nightgal, Arcaneguy, and the Nightcave intended to solve?

 

What problem(s) do they in turn cause?

 

Ultimately only MR can answer those questions.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Plenty of stuff to mull over.

[LordGhee]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Killer comes through!

 

rep you if I could

 

I thought night guy ect where going to be Players, that would be cool.

 

Lord Ghee

[LordGhee]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

We had a four color Game in LA and San Fran so I would think that it would work everywhere.

 

Lord Ghee

[Mark Rand]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

I'm piecing together some ideas for a four-color team in Pittsburgh. When it gets together, I'll present some of it here, then as a number of threads on the Champions board.

 

One will be on the team and base. A second will be on some bad guys. A third will be on organizations. A possible fourth will be on the Pittsburgh area. The others will be threads with characters for comment.

 

Oh, I never said that Daniel Carter was having an affair with his secretary. I said that he's rumored to be having one with her.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

More kicking stuff around.

 

Doctor Arcane, the team's mage, is 22 years old and has been an active superhero for 6 weeks at the start of the campaign. He looks like a stage magician in his white tie, top hat, and tails. His familiar, Amber, is a Western screech owl who loves pigeons and grey squirrels.

 

Raideen is a woman wearing a suit of armor that looks like a 6 foot version of the mecha, without the beard. She's been an active superhero for 5 weeks.

 

Black Scorpion, a ninja, is one of the team's two reservists. She's also publically-known to be Keiko Yamashiro, an heiress and the team's engineer. Her action garb is a black ninja nightsuit and her vehicle is a tricked out Lamborghini Murcielago. For fun, she races a candy-apple red Lamborghini Diablo in Sports Car Club of America-sanctioned events.

 

Solara is the team's other reservist. She's the latest in a line of heroines that started in 1903 and has been active for three weeks.

 

The team's mansion is based on the Mobius from the fourth edition book Mystic Masters is a fastness. It's located at Fifth Avenue at Morwood Avenue and was left to Doctor Arcane by his late master. He and the team's patron, Daniel Carter, decided to use it as a base for the superhero team.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Are ANY of these people PCs? Any of them? I hate to preach from my soapbox, but I know from personal experience that if you're spending all this time focusing on what would be "active" GMPCs, you're already missing the whole point of roleplaying.

 

I'm aware that this is just MHO, but bear with me a moment. If we sit down to play your game, and you sell me the idea of being part of a super team, and give me this massive breakdown of a roster you've already assembled, and I say "So... what do I do?" and you say "Whatever the team leader tells you to do" I'm probably going to say "Er... well, you know, I was going to get a game together myself, so I'm prolly going to do that. But thanks for the invite!"

 

I submit that my core question hasn't changed: What's your pitch, and what are you trying to sell the PCs? Said another way, where does the PCs fun come from? To use KS's question line (journalism 101) ask those same six questions about the PCs of the campaign.

 

WHO are the PCs? WHAT is their primary focus and goals? WHEN are they going to be exposed to the core plot arc? WHERE are they from, and WHERE are they going? WHY are they going to care about this plot? HOW does the material you've written forward the PCs fun?

[Mark Rand]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

Are ANY of these people PCs? Any of them? I hate to preach from my soapbox, but I know from personal experience that if you're spending all this time focusing on what would be "active" GMPCs, you're already missing the whole point of roleplaying.

 

I'm aware that this is just MHO, but bear with me a moment. If we sit down to play your game, and you sell me the idea of being part of a super team, and give me this massive breakdown of a roster you've already assembled, and I say "So... what do I do?" and you say "Whatever the team leader tells you to do" I'm probably going to say "Er... well, you know, I was going to get a game together myself, so I'm prolly going to do that. But thanks for the invite!"

 

I submit that my core question hasn't changed: What's your pitch, and what are you trying to sell the PCs? Said another way, where does the PCs fun come from? To use KS's question line (journalism 101) ask those same six questions about the PCs of the campaign.

 

WHO are the PCs? WHAT is their primary focus and goals? WHEN are they going to be exposed to the core plot arc? WHERE are they from, and WHERE are they going? WHY are they going to care about this plot? HOW does the material you've written forward the PCs fun?

 

The PCs are the important heroes. With the possible exception of Keiko, all of the NPC heroes are novices. Furthermore, Solara's alter ego is a 14 year old boy.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

But what is there purpose? I mean, why are they there? What do they provide to the setting?

 

More importantly if you've already got a bunch of heroes in the city, why do you need PC's?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Nightman and Nightgirl

 

The PCs are the important heroes. With the possible exception of Keiko' date=' all of the NPC heroes are novices. Furthermore, Solara's alter ego is a 14 year old boy.[/quote']

 

This also follows what KS (and I) was saying. First, if you're doing a DC:TAS campaign, it doesn't matter how old the alter ego is. Second, 'novice heroes' are very often what these kinds of campaigns are about, so why take that option away from the PCs by placing it with a GMPC?

 

Who are these people you want to cast as the PC Heroes? I reiterate: What are you trying to sell here? That I'm an 'important hero?' Then who the duece are these other people, and why are they populating my setting? If we play the important PCs, where do we (the PCs) fall into the structure? If the original concept was to make the PCs the novice team, then why did you build a novice team?

 

Look. Take this back to zero. From ground zero, where do you want to begin? Start at the front and ask all these questions over again. Rethink your core assumptions about what may or may not work, and if you have a group, solicit feedback from them. What do THEY want to play? What in this setting would appeal to them? What are the cool current events in Pittsburgh that would drive a campaign? Mafia? Alien Invasion? Collapsed football team is really the work of infiltrators?

 

Ground zero. Start over, and start with asking all the key questions that have been presented.