Beyond the Kardashev Scale

[Mister E]

Hey, Herodom.

 

So I was working on setting baseline Degrees of Skill for a StarHERO campaign for establishing broad macroscopic Tech Levels. I've decided I'm going to use the optional Extraordinary Skill rule (a Skill Role of 18- allows for fantastic feats of skill) as the starting point for Science Skill Rolls required for Type I ( Kardashev Scale) civilization achievements and beyond (big dumb objects and such).

 

18- to 19-: Type I

20- to 21-: Type II

22- to 23-: Type III

24- Or Greater: Type IV

 

Initially I was going to attempt to extrapolate required Skill Rolls out to the theoretical Type IV civilization (for simulating the scientific magnitude of an elder alien race that had achieved Omega Point). I realize quantifying this is ridiculous, but what the hey, it's my game . Anyhow, once I put a number on the minimum Skill Roll required to basically create new universes whole unto themselves (following James N. Gardner's "Selfish Biocosm Hypothesis"), the HERO System being the beautiful thing that it is, I realized that if I wanted to, I could very easily simulate even greater civilizations than this.

 

So I thought I might open up a discussion on the imagined nature of Type IV and beyond existence. Any thoughts? My campaign is going to feature different forms of psionics; and I was looking forward to eventually exploring multiple levels of reality using an emanationistic over-arching cosmology similar to HERO's use of Kabbalist Sephirot... and I'm going to inject lots of Lovecraftian elements... so really, any and all ideas are welcome.

 

For instance: following from the description of a biocosm, I was thinking it would be cool to invent a necrocosm to house some truly horrific 'beings'... partly inspired from the new Doctor Who? 2-parter, "The Impossible Planet," and "The Satan Pit."

 

 

It's been a few months, so my details may be off, but the premise of these episodes was that a planet had been discovered in orbit of a black hole... and that Satan was trapped there in chains, put there by god knows what. The Doctor seemed uncharacteristically shaken by these facts, and it lent the plot a level of palpable supernatural horror lacking in the average Who-ish explanations.

 

Now, knowing what/who Doctor Who is, roughly:

 

"The Time Lords were

the

Type 4 civilization. We had no equals. We controlled the fundamental forces of the entire universe. Nothing could communicate with us on our level. Most races pray to lesser beings than the Time Lords"

~ (Time Lord Marnal, from "The Gallifrey Chronicles" )

 

... I was thinking a necrocosm existing external/beyond a biocosm could potentially be justified as having a Type V class technology level.

 

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Well, I unfortunately have not read the publication containing the Sephirot of the Hero Qabalah, but presumably they include the Qliphoth. Since every action has an equal and opposite reaction, each Sephirot creates a corresponding Qliphoth, inhabited by evil demons who are the opposite or the excess of the virtues of that Sephirot.

 

However, post-Kardashev cultures that get up to Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur will come under Paul Hughes' corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from nature.

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Well' date=' I unfortunately have not read the publication containing the Sephirot of the Hero Qabalah,...[/quote']

 

I was refering to "The Mystic World," source book.

 

...but presumably they include the Qliphoth. Since every action has an equal and opposite reaction' date=' each Sephirot creates a corresponding Qliphoth, inhabited by evil demons who are the opposite or the excess of the virtues of that Sephirot.[/quote']

 

Right, "the Qliphoth." The Mystic World mentioned these buggers, but my Qabalah knowledge is pretty lacking despite having taken a class on Jewish religion. Must rectify that.

 

However' date=' post-Kardashev cultures that get up to Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur will come under Paul Hughes' corollary to Clarke's Third Law: [b']Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from nature[/b].

 

I'm looking up the "Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur" on the net, right now:

 

"The study of the Kabbalah is a long and difficult journey. Among Orthodox Jews the study of the Kabbalah is not encouraged unless the student is over forty, married, with children, and well versed with the Talmud and the Torah. Among the more liberal divisions of Judaism the study of the Kabbalah is not encouraged and in fact some find portions of the Dogmatic Kabbalah almost heretical. I can now appreciate the requirements. I have read volumes which went right over my head. I have then re-read some of them to discover I know precious little more than when I started. Slowly with the Grace of the Most High some light pierced the veil of my ignorance and I hope to be able to share some of what I have learned. One of the greatest difficulties in the discussion of the Kabbalah lies in the futility of comprehending of that which is incomprehensible."

 

-------------------

 

In the beginning...

 

there was AIN, a complete void and vacuum. Not simply "nothing," but not even the existence of "nothing" itself -- absolute, incomprehensible nada. For convenience, AIN is God.

 

At some point AIN began to "concentrate" (since we can't even conceive of it, we can't say exactly what happened or why) and "created" AIN SOPH, which is infinity in existence, which is to say something forever, even if that something is nothing (confused?). AIN is the idea of infinity, while AIN SOPH is infinity. For convenience, AIN SOPH is the Waters.

 

Then AIN SOPH "moved" and created AIN SOPH AUR, "the limitless light." This is not only "...and God said, 'Let there be Light'," but is also the Holy Triad of qabala represented by the letter sheen, which means "the Spirit or Breath of God." For convenience, AIN SOPH AUR is the Light.

 

Sounds pretty *cough* esoteric...

 

Huh... this is randomly sweet! A whole website devoted to creating a sci-fi RP setting:

 

"Orion's Arm is a vast work in progress, a "Space Opera" setting like no other. It spans the next ten thousand years of terragen galactic history, from the near future interplanetary colonization to the far future where the colonised part of the galaxy is ruled by vast ascended intelligences, incorporating both hard science, and the "soft" or social sciences, as well as mythological, archetypal themes, as the gods of the collective psyche incarnate in unforeseen new forms."

 

Okay, Qabalism is going to take a bit of consuption and digestion. Good. Thanks for the leads.

 

As to the Clarke quote: you read my mind!

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

OK, it isn't too hard. You've probably seen the Qabalistic Tree of Life:

http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Tree_of_Life

Each of the spheres is a Sephirot. Each sphere has a sinister evil twin Qliphoth. Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur are the three arcs over the top of the tree, and are just three stages of the process the vague and uninteresting Great Unmanifest uses to manifest itself as our universe. All of us Kardashev I civilizations are stuck down in Malkuth.

 

That's probably all you need to know before you start creating your campaign universe.

 

 

Jeff Patterson said:

 

I am once again stunned at the insistence that Star Trek has to be allegorically relevant, but if it must, I'd prefer it take on more scientific/ethical issues, like a justification for banning genetic enhancement. or how a society with FTL, molecular replication, and teleportation has managed to sidestep a technological singularity.

 

Star Trek is considered by many to be the public face of SF, it's flagship. I hold by my belief that to retain that title it needs to take it up a level: travel out into some heretofore unexplored quadrant and find that it is heavily populated by Type II Kardashev cultures, Lovecraftian ancients, Kirby-esque star gods, Matrioshka brain AIs trying to tap reality's source-code, post-singularity societies like Banks Culture, Wright's Oecumene, or Hamilton's Edenists, etc.

 

In short, Trek needs to catch up with the rest of science fiction.

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Consequently... upon further research, I'm probably going to re-evaluate my Tech Level scheme. Seems like nanotech and beyond (picotech, femtotech... Planckteck?) might represent better benchmarks, due to computational enablement. Faux referrence from Orion's Arm setting: link

 

Purhaps some reasoned melding of a stratified nanotechnology and the Kardashev scale can be reached.

 

Gah...

 

Hey, thanks again, Nyrath, for the input. I'm not a huge fan of Aleister Crowley (too much has dominated modern new-age thinking, IMO)... but his methods sure are 'arcane.' This will help lead to much weirdness for my players, I'm afraid.

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

I'm not a huge fan of Aleister Crowley (too much has dominated modern new-age thinking' date=' IMO)... but his methods sure are 'arcane.' This will help lead to much weirdness for my players, I'm afraid. [/quote']

Good. As far as your players go, they knew the job was dangerous when they took it.

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Regarding the sephiroth:

The following is a joke, but the principle could be used to figure out areas of responsibility.

 

http://www.neatorama.com/2007/02/05/7-deadly-sins-and-their-combinations/

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

 

Is this what you are talking about? Mixing the sephiroth up like this crazy. You could fabricate all kinds of ideas. Interesting. Reminds me of the way I viewed the world when I was a kid... not a bad thing.

 

What kind of game are you running?

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

In more detail:

 

In mysticism, there is a diagram called "The Tree of Life." It is composed of spheres called Sephiorth, which are connected by Paths.

 

In some traditions, the various Tarot cards can be assigned to the the Sephiroth and the Paths. The Trumps are assigned to Paths, and the number cards to the Sephiroth.

http://www.geocities.com/nisetar/tarot.tree.life.jpg

This allows one to figure out the "meaning" of the various Sephiroth and Paths, just by reading that flimsy little pamphlet that comes with the Tarot deck.

 

To cut to the chase, the humorous "seven deadly sin" chart could be used as a map of the demonic infernal regions. The major sins are sephiroth, the connecting lines are paths, both can be discrete locales the players must travel through for the scenario or campaign.

 

For eternal regions, one could prepare a similar diagram with the seven virtues.

 

For realms beyond the Kardashev scale, one could prepare a similar diagram with, oh, maybe intellectual talents or different branches of philosophy. Or something like that.

 

I'm trying to help you with your "exploring multiple levels of reality using an emanationistic over-arching cosmology similar to HERO's use of Kabbalist Sephirot" This is just a suggestion that hopefully will give you a couple of ideas.

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Brilliant. This could turn out to resemble the Planescape setting.

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Planetscape! I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right!

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

"Planetscape." Too cool.

 

Okay, so I'm still raw on details, but here's how I'm thinking I might do things:

 

First, I'm setting the campaign some trillions of years in the future. (I'm referencing these 2 sites for accuracy: http://www.magicdragon.com/UltimateSF/timelineCF.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_E19_s_and_more)Humanity expanded out into space at sub-light speeds, establishing a network of artificial worm-holes. There was much weirdness ala artificial singularities, transhumanism, and the incorporations of alien civilizations; turning life into a kind of Iain M. Banks "Culture" meets "Farscape". Eventually, we expand into other wholly alien Cultures with worm-hole networks of their own (allowing us to leap out faster than the speed of light and look back on our past and such). After many 'strange eons' (my current working name for the campaign), a kind of critical mass of hyper-cultures in the universe enables descendants of mankind to participate on a truly universal scale, and things get fairly crowded.

 

Ha... so I'm personally big on the idea of simulation universes, and I think it might be perfect to use them to explain the nature of existence beyond our own universe. The point of simulating universes is to glean information from them (the ultimate goal might be to create the perfect universe; or to find clues empowering the viewer to transcend further). I imagine it must be difficult to simply look into a created universe, so I'm working on the premise that during the life of a simulated universe, transcendent beings emerge as a precipitate, able to commune with their creators on an abstract level. I'm calling this situation, "the climax" of the universe; though I imagine it happening at any time, and potentially many many times during the life of a universe.

 

The "climactic" event, I'm saying, necessitate a Trial of Judgement as the creators wring out the ascendee for Truth. Currently, I think of this experience as classically spiritual in a mythical, "Ma'at weighs my atma," and/or, "Orpheus plays his music in Hades," metaphorical kind of way. Each event would be fully unique, otherwise.

 

And finally... this contact with transcosmic abstract reality is where beings from our universe begin to explore the 'greater mysteries' and whatnot of the multiverse... and have adventures: all in a primarily corporeal sense.

 

That being said, it seems like it would be easy to plunder any and all of our myths, fantasies, philosophies and religions for material to flesh out and populate the game; blending science with fantasy and horror. (Your contributions, Nyrath, have greatly inspired me).

 

The focus of my campaign will be on the last few remaining habitats of our dieing universe in the immediate surroundings (and the few useful worm-hole destinations) of my main 'Barsoom-esque' planet, populated with a majority of human descendants (far superior to modern man) during a kind of final dark age. Earth history is long gone, but I'll continue to use familiar terms and references under the hack explanation that I (the GM) am merely interpreting visions of the far future as best I can; and thus not get in trouble for giving alien races Earth-like names and such, if I feel like it. (besides... I already know one of my players wants to play a Carter-Gordon-Rogers based character... so really, I can blame this paradoxical vernacular phenomenon on him.) The same basically goes for my impressions of fully abstract existence.

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

That being said' date=' it seems like it would be easy to plunder any and all of our myths, fantasies, philosophies and religions for material to flesh out and populate the game; blending science with fantasy and horror. (Your contributions, Nyrath, have greatly inspired me).[/quote']

 

You're welcome!

 

My, you don't think small, do you? You've got the makings of a mind-bogglingly cosmic and mythic campaign. If you develop it enough, it might be suitable for publication.

 

Speaking of "mythic", there is a tradition in science fiction that hyper-universal cosmic truths are not comprehendable by the human mind, unless they are stated allegorically as myths.

[Cancer]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

"Ha... so I'm personally big on the idea of simulation universes' date=' and I think it might be perfect to use them to explain the nature of existence beyond our own universe. The point of simulating universes is to glean information from them (the ultimate goal might be to create the perfect universe; or to find clues empowering the viewer to transcend further). I imagine it must be difficult to simply look into a created universe, so I'm working on the premise that during the life of a simulated universe, transcendent beings emerge as a precipitate, able to commune with their creators on an abstract level. I'm calling this situation, "the climax" of the universe; though I imagine it happening at any time, and potentially many many times during the life of a universe. [/quote']

I see an eerie congruence between this story and Adams's story describing the development of the Infinite Improbability Drive.

 

That index card image ... why stop only with the pairs? Construction of all the possible combinations of all sizes could go on...

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Ha... so I'm personally big on the idea of simulation universes, and I think it might be perfect to use them to explain the nature of existence beyond our own universe. The point of simulating universes is to glean information from them (the ultimate goal might be to create the perfect universe; or to find clues empowering the viewer to transcend further). I imagine it must be difficult to simply look into a created universe, so I'm working on the premise that during the life of a simulated universe, transcendent beings emerge as a precipitate, able to commune with their creators on an abstract level. I'm calling this situation, "the climax" of the universe; though I imagine it happening at any time, and potentially many many times during the life of a universe.

 

The "climactic" event, I'm saying, necessitate a Trial of Judgement as the creators wring out the ascendee for Truth. Currently, I think of this experience as classically spiritual in a mythical, "Ma'at weighs my atma," and/or, "Orpheus plays his music in Hades," metaphorical kind of way. Each event would be fully unique, otherwise.

Mr. E, if you have not already: run do not walk to get a copy of Star Maker by Olaf Stapledon. It has similar elements: created universes and "the supreme moment of the cosmos" where the beings commune with their creators.

 

http://www.orionsarm.com/books/Star_Maker.html

 

Dry in spots, the science is dated, but in its field there is none better.

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

You're welcome!

 

My, you don't think small, do you? You've got the makings of a mind-bogglingly cosmic and mythic campaign. If you develop it enough, it might be suitable for publication.

 

Well... that is the Holy Grail of nerds like us. Really, I'm getting old, and I'd prefer to just do one final campaign setting for my players... one with enough potential to cover most of our different interests.

 

Speaking of "mythic"' date=' there is a tradition in science fiction that hyper-universal cosmic truths are not comprehendable by the human mind, [i']unless they are stated allegorically as myths[/i].

 

Handy. I guess it's better than telling your readers to go out into the desert with a pocket full of mescaline.

 

On that note... I'm going to require a super-human level of INT to breach common experience.

 

It's funny, I was thinking earlier how useful yogic methods would be for transcendence, once advanced technology made it possible to actually do so. Shows what I think of past miracle-workers, I suppose... ("shoulders of giants...")

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

I see an eerie congruence between this story and Adams's story describing the development of the Infinite Improbability Drive.

 

That index card image ... why stop only with the pairs? Construction of all the possible combinations of all sizes could go on...

 

I haven't read that stuff since junior high... but I'd have to rate Adams as one of the principle shapers of my imagination. "Index card image?" How did that go down?

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Mr. E' date=' if you have not already: run do not walk to get a copy of [b']Star Maker[/b] by Olaf Stapledon. It has similar elements: created universes and "the supreme moment of the cosmos" where the beings commune with their creators.

 

http://www.orionsarm.com/books/Star_Maker.html

 

Dry in spots, the science is dated, but in its field there is none better.

 

I'll do that... maybe at a brisk, um, amble. I back has been acting up since I helped move a buddy from his girlfriend's place a couple of days ago.

[Cancer]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

"Index card image?" How did that go down?

 

Post #8 in this thread, where you have all the dyads of all the sins. Seems to me like you could continue on that scale to include all the combinations.

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

I'll do that... maybe at a brisk' date=' um, amble. I back has been acting up since I helped move a buddy from his girlfriend's place a couple of days ago.[/quote']

You can find a free copy of Star Maker at Project Gutenberg

 

Html (has scanned images of the three time scales at the end)

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0601841h.html

 

Text

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0601841.txt

 

zip

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0601841.zip

 

Just skim over chapters I-III, the part you will be interested in starts at chapter IV.

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Here's a nice quote from Stapledon's, "Last and First Men," which I'm reading today:

 

"To romance of the future may seem to be indulgence in ungoverned speculation for the sake of the marvellous. Yet controlled imagination in this sphere can be a very valuable exercise for minds bewildered about the present and its potentialities. Today we should welcome, and even study, every serious attempt to envisage the future of our race; not merely in order to grasp the very diverse and often tragic possibilities that confront us, but also that we may familiarize ourselves with the certainty that many of our most cherished ideals would seem puerile to more developed minds. To romance of the far future, then, is to attempt to see the human race in its cosmic setting, and to mould our hearts to entertain new values."

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Those words should be engraved on solid gold.

 

And what he says could apply equally well to a carefully crafted Star Hero campaign. It is certainly "controlled imagination" about the future, and since the players will be inhabiting the campaign through their characters, they will be thinking about the background details.

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

Those words should be engraved on solid gold.

 

And what he says could apply equally well to a carefully crafted Star Hero campaign. It is certainly "controlled imagination" about the future, and since the players will be inhabiting the campaign through their characters, they will be thinking about the background details.

 

I'm about a third through the story. So far, 100% exposition with no hint of letting up. "Gah!" Other than that, it's pretty amusing. It turns out the world's coal is going to last another 4000+ years...

[Nyrath]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

I warned you that he was dry in spots.

And for your campaign, you'd find more interesting stuff in STAR MAKER, not LAST AND FIRST MEN.

[Mister E]

Re: Beyond the Kardashev Scale

 

I warned you that he was dry in spots.

And for your campaign, you'd find more interesting stuff in STAR MAKER, not LAST AND FIRST MEN.

 

It's cool. Once the book completed its musings on the futures of current political states, and started radically altering the face of the Earth, it became much more interesting. I only now just got to the 'second' race if man. Sixteen more to go.

 

I'm going to read Star Maker immediately after this. Patients, old boy.

 

I must say, I'm impressed by the fact that this book (Men) even got published. Its remarkably awful, though I do like it. Obviously revolutionary. Any one of us could probably do just as well, which is heartening. I think I'll buy a copy and keep it on a shelf in my study at some future date. It would be a good thing to light a pipe full of cavendish a few times a week too... for proper atmosphere. Ah, and I shall spill a nice tawny sherry somewhere in the room, and never ever let anyone do any dusting. Do you know where I can get my hands on a taxidermied dodo? A movie studio perhaps?

 

I'm actually quite in heaven today. Thanks again for suggesting Stapledon. He's perfectly brilliant in a pleasantly quiet kind of way. I now also recall seeing a copy of Star Maker at the start of the sci-fi museum in Seattle.