Fun with Aid & Variable Effect

[Thia Halmades]

Okay you cool cats, here's another chance to show me a new wrinkle in the HERO mechanics. Same spell project, level 3 magic, same rules apply.

 

Rule 1: I'm not trying to recreate anything, but to retain the feel of it, or simulate it. So AP, etc. aren't issues. The objective is for the final spell to make sense and accomplish its goal.

 

Rule 2: Don't stress over putting together a valid build; I just get stuck trying to figure out the mechanics of things. In this case, the almighty Aid.

 

When I want to Drain something, I usually build it as a Drain, Variable Effect (total of things to drain). What I'm trying to puzzle through is how to Aid someone's combat ability.

 

Stumper. As Steve has said, OCV and DCV can't be "aided" because they're not "real" stats. Do I simply Aid the primary combat stats (EGO for morale, DEX & STR for combat ability and END because... it's there?)

 

The d20 spell in question is HEROISM. The idea is very simple; you Aid (at +2) your friend's: Attack Rolls and Skill Checks.

 

Do I just make this cosmic and go about my business? Is there a game-approved way of helping someone hit without a NPA for One Hex (Accurate)? Am I making sense?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fun with Aid & Variable Effect

 

Never mind. Aid isn't the answer, which is why I couldn't figure this out. Problem solved.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Fun with Aid & Variable Effect

 

Here's a couple of different ways. Note that using Succor/Aid to DEX makes it impossible to have the OCV bonus = skill bonus.

 

36 Heroism: Succor DEX 8d6 (standard effect: 24 points), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4) (90 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Limited Power Only to increase OCV and Skill rolls (-1/2) - END=[1 cc]

 

I chose Succor instead of Aid since it is easier and more accurate to put a Continuing Charge Limitation on it than it is to apply the Reduced Return Rate advantage to Aid.

 

26 Heroism: +2 Overall, Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4) (65 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Limited Power Only to increase OCV and Skill rolls (-1/2)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fun with Aid & Variable Effect

 

You've come close to my design; it adds to Attack Rolls, Saves (Non Existant) and Skill Checks. I set it up as:

 

14 Heroism [Enchantment]: (Total: 49 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost) +3 with HTH Combat, Usable By Other (+1/4) (19 Active Points); Linked (Improved Competence; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 20 Minutes (-1/2), Requires An Enchantment Roll (-1/2), Spell (Enchantment; -1/2), Only to Add to OCV Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus +3 with all non-combat Skills, Usable By Other (+1/4) (30 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 20 Minutes (-1/2), Requires An Enchantment Roll (-1/2), Spell (Enchantment; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Fun with Aid & Variable Effect

 

You've come close to my design; it adds to Attack Rolls, Saves (Non Existant) and Skill Checks. I set it up as:

 

14 Heroism [Enchantment]: (Total: 49 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost) +3 with HTH Combat, Usable By Other (+1/4) (19 Active Points); Linked (Improved Competence; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 20 Minutes (-1/2), Requires An Enchantment Roll (-1/2), Spell (Enchantment; -1/2), Only to Add to OCV Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus +3 with all non-combat Skills, Usable By Other (+1/4) (30 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 20 Minutes (-1/2), Requires An Enchantment Roll (-1/2), Spell (Enchantment; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10)

 

Limited 10 point Overall levels seems cheaper than 2 sets of Limited 8 point levels. Overall's are functionally equivalent since there are very few situations where a character would use a skill and attack in the same phase.

 

One possible argument in favor of the Aid/Succor approach is how to handle Anti-Magic Field spells from later levels. Anti-Magic is easy to handle as a form of Power Defense only Force Wall. How that interacts with Skill Levels UBO is confusing though.

[gojira]

Re: Fun with Aid & Variable Effect

 

I think both Champions and Ultimate Martial Artist have a Fighting Array power that adds to OCV and DCV. It uses Aid DEX, so I guess that's official like.

 

Based on that power in the book, I'm going to guess that Hyper Man's Aid build should have "OCV and Skill Rolls Only" as a -1/4 limitation. "OCV Only" would probably be about -1/2.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Fun with Aid & Variable Effect

 

I think both Champions and Ultimate Martial Artist have a Fighting Array power that adds to OCV and DCV. It uses Aid DEX, so I guess that's official like.

 

Based on that power in the book, I'm going to guess that Hyper Man's Aid build should have "OCV and Skill Rolls Only" as a -1/4 limitation. "OCV Only" would probably be about -1/2.

 

Probably right. I'm just guessing at limitation values. It's actually a Succor build though.

[gojira]

Re: Fun with Aid & Variable Effect

 

Probably right. I'm just guessing at limitation values. It's actually a Succor build though.

 

Doh! Sorry about that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fun with Aid & Variable Effect

 

Trouble with levels is that you can't use them simultaneously: you can't perceive something and attack at a higher skill level witht he same skills: you can't use skill levels for diffeerent stuff simultaneously.

 

Now skill rolls come from DEX, INT and PRE. There are not enough general skills to matter and I'd probably handwave the odd (very odd) CON or STR based skill a particular campaign might throw up.

 

OCV runs off DEX, limited.

 

To increase a skill roll by +2 requires +10 points of the base characteristic, to be sure. To increase OCV by +2 requires +6 DEX to be sure.

 

SO

 

We need

 

+10 DEX (+6 of which can be used with for OCV or skills, the rest only for skills)

+10 INT (useable for skills)

+10 PRE (useable for skills)

 

Now to complicate matetrs further you can't really use INT for anything but skills, or skill rolls, so it gets no limitation. PRE can be used for attacking and defensive PRE attacks, so -1 (loses half of effectiveness), and DEX can be used for initiative, DCV and skills so -1/2 when used for skills and OCV, and -1 1/2 when just used for skills.

 

Cool.

 

Next problem: standard effect. I hate standard effect, but what I hate most about it is that it comes in usits of 3. That is useless. SO we start off with a full die of effect and -1/2 (loses 1/3 effectiveness) to make 2 points of effeect and -1 1/2 (loses 2/3 effectiveness) for 1 point of effect. Cool.

 

Almost ready to go...

 

The only other problem is that DEX costs a lot more than INT and PRE....ah well.

 

First off +10 character points of INT, DEX and PRE (i.e. +10 INT and PRE and +3.333 DEX)

 

We'll use succor, shall we?

 

We need 3 and 1/3 dice of effect, or 4 dice of effect with the last die limited at -1 1/2.

 

3 dice = 15 points

1 die = 5 points

 

Advantage with +3 characteristics simultaneously = +3/4 (well, extrapolating it is). now we want this to effect the target for a set time, and succor fades as soon as you stop, so we need to think about that next.

 

Hyperman suggests a continuing charge...problematic in that, if you want to learn the spell more than once you need to re-calculate the spell cost each time. it is a nice way around it, but, it seems to me, not really in keeping with the DnD spell system, so I'm going with the kludgier to build Uncontrolled, weighing in at +1/2 as succor is already constant.

 

Now we need to worry about END: feed or 0 END it? Matter of style and preference, but the spell duration (knowing DnD) probably varies with level, and is likely to be significant - minutes, probably, so feeding END will get real expensive - let us go for 0 END, spell ends after set duration. That's another +1/2.

 

I note that HyperMan added selective AoE, and you can too, but I am not sure if that is how the spell works or just a nice flourish.

 

SO, total ADVANTAGES on that succor (so to speak) +1 3/4, total cost =

 

3d6 = 41 AND

1d6 = 14, limited to -1 1/2, or 6 points

 

Now for disadvantages...

 

We can't limit this 'only for skills' at all BECAUSE INT does not need it and we have to go with the lowest limtation we can apply to them all.

 

SO, 47 points (55 active) SO FAR, and it justs adds 10 character points to a target for a couple of minutes to be used for INT, DEX and PRE with a -0 limitation 'only for skill rolls'.

 

Now we work on the DEX. We have 3.333 points of DEX, and we need 6 points (18 character points) worth for skills and OCV, and another 0.6667 of a point for skills only.

 

0.667 is 1 die (5 points) with 0 END and uncontrolled and a limitation at -1/2 to reduce standard effect to 2 points. This bit CAN benefit from the -1 1/2 for 'only for skills' we were going to apply for DEX because it is not being held back by DEX any more. 10 more active points, 3 real, so total cost = 50 (65 active).

 

Finally we need 18 character points in DEX, which is 6 dice, or 30 points 0 END and uncontrolled (60 active) at -1/2 (only for skills and OCV) or 40 more points real, for a final total of 90 real points (125 active).

 

Now that is a horrible build in many ways, but pretty accurate. It is desperately expensive for what it does, but it is easy to administer in-game and seems to do what the spell allows.

 

Personally I'd go with 2 overall levels and limitations (not for damage, DCV -1/4) useable on others +1/4 or more, ranged (+1/2), uncontrolled +1/2, 45 active (36 real) and call it good HM mentioned that one too, although I'd quibble with his limtiation values a little, that seems a far easier way to go and will only very rarely not do what the DnD spell allows. I can't even rep him as he's making too much sense lately. not, you'll note, that he NEEDS repping

 

Now, can anyone tell me why my life is overcomplicated?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fun with Aid & Variable Effect

 

Limited 10 point Overall levels seems cheaper than 2 sets of Limited 8 point levels. Overall's are functionally equivalent since there are very few situations where a character would use a skill and attack in the same phase.

 

One possible argument in favor of the Aid/Succor approach is how to handle Anti-Magic Field spells from later levels. Anti-Magic is easy to handle as a form of Power Defense only Force Wall. How that interacts with Skill Levels UBO is confusing though.

 

Cost was a non-issue; I prefer this build because it cleanly splits the skill levels from the HTH levels with no confusion.