What is the best way to build this?

[Gideon]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

AmadanNaBriona: Looking at things again I think this is a good idea, but I would really apretiate it if you could re-post the build fully, because I need to actually see it better.

 

I just think that I am going to have to suck it up (if I want to do this at all) and pay through the nose for non-RKA bullets. Its Ok, because I should be more than able to come up with enough limitations on the powers that they end up fairly inexpensive.

[Gideon]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Multiple copies of the same power by way of doubling for every 5 un-limited points spent is just the mechanics. You can still define it as one item if you want. And if the GM has issue just apply the IPE Naked advantage on the doubling cost (which I already posted).

 

What page are the rules for this on? I don't know what its listed under in the index, and I've never really looked into multiple copies of frameworks closely.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Here's the my latest proposal cleaned up and modified with some extra slot examples:

 

30 Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo: Multipower, 37-point reserve, all slots 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0), Limited Power x6 number of items is only to allow use of Rapid Fire with different ammo slots in combination with Expert Gun Handler 1 & 2 (+0), Limited Power Number of different ammo types in clips (speed loaders) are normally set before combat. Takes 1/2 phase to change ammo distribution of clips using Fast Draw. (+0) (37 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Power All slots can be Missle Deflected (even Explosive and Sparkler AOE slots which can't take Beam Limitation) (-1/4) [Notes: (x6 number of items)

 

Number of clips of each slot type must be defined at beginning of adventure.] - END=

1u 1) Armor Piercing Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 2) Penetrating Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Penetrating (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 3) Hollow Point Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 4) Explosive Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Explosion (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 5) Variable SFX Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Cold Iron, Silver, Holy, etc...; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 6) Normal Bullets: RKA 2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 7) Bean-Bag Bullets: EB 7d6+1 (37 Active Points); Limited Range (-1/4) - END=0

1u 8) Sparkler Bullets: Sight and Hearing Groups Flash 4d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

- END=

 

11 1 Gun with up to 6 different chambered bullets (instead of 6 guns): Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) for up to 15 Active Points of Quantity 6 (15 active points) on Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); OAF (-1) - END=0

- END=

 

4 Multi-Round Gun (part 1): Extra Limbs (6), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (1 Gun with up to 6 different chambered bullets (instead of 6 guns); -1/2) - END=0

4 Multi-Round Gun (part 2): Penalty Skill Levels: +3 vs. Offhand Penalty with Colt Peacemaker Multiple Item (6) Multipowers with All Attacks (9 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (1 Gun with up to 6 different chambered bullets (instead of 6 guns); -1/2) - END=0

 

And just for comparison, here's the multipower reserve without the 'quantity 6' 15 active points figured in:

 

15 Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo: Multipower, 37-point reserve, all slots 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0), Limited Power x6 number of items is only to allow use of Rapid Fire with different ammo slots in combination with Expert Gun Handler 1 & 2 (+0), Limited Power Number of different ammo types in clips (speed loaders) are normally set before combat. Takes 1/2 phase to change ammo distribution of clips using Fast Draw. (+0) (37 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Power All slots can be Missle Deflected (even Explosive and Sparkler AOE slots which can't take Beam Limitation) (-1/4) [Notes: Number of clips of each slot type must be defined at beginning of adventure.] - END=

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

AmadanNaBriona: Looking at things again I think this is a good idea, but I would really apretiate it if you could re-post the build fully, because I need to actually see it better.

 

I just think that I am going to have to suck it up (if I want to do this at all) and pay through the nose for non-RKA bullets. Its Ok, because I should be more than able to come up with enough limitations on the powers that they end up fairly inexpensive.

 

I'll try and gussy up a more complete write up for you.

 

The more I ponder it, the more I'm coming to see that you've found a No-Prize, to use the old Marvel term. As the system has grown, the ability to perform multiple attacks and multiple actions in a single phase has improved, but in the process of trying to hardcode in anti-abuse rules (instead of relying on the GM to police his or her own game) logical inconsistancies that violate the Common and Dramatic Sense "metarule" have crept in.

 

At the very basic level, the conumdrum could be summed up as thus...

 

Character has 2 attacks, A and B. Character may attack a single target with both, or can attack multiple targets with either , but cannot engage multiple targets with any combonation of both attacks.

 

Right now, Hawkeye can't ever shoot 2 different trick arrows at 2 different targets. Not without a supercumbersome build.

 

In a way, this is reminding me of the the frustration of trying to build a 2 weapon fighting style under the 3rd Edition rules.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

What page are the rules for this on? I don't know what its listed under in the index' date=' and I've never really looked into multiple copies of frameworks closely.[/quote']

 

5er page 456,

 

THE 5-POINT DOUBLING RULE

At the GM’s option, characters in any type of campaign may double the number of a particular piece of equipment, weapon, or object they have for +5 points. Thus, if a sword costs 20 Character Points, for 25 points the character could have two such swords. This is a quick and easy way to simulate characters who carry lots of “back-up” weapons or who want to own a fleet of vehicles. If the equipment is unusual (such as an Unbreakable Focus, an enchanted item, or the like), the character should get the GM’s permission to buy it using this rule. The 5-point doubling purchase is a separate cost, not a part of the equipment being purchased. Therefore it doesn’t affect the purchased equipment’s Active Points or the like. If a character applies the 5-point doubling rule to a gadget built with Limitations, those Limitations do not apply to the +5 points — the +5 points aren’t subject to Power Modifiers. The +5 points also cannot be put in Power Frameworks.

 

What I am suggesting is that your character uses this rule to allow common sense firing of multiple bullet types from 1 multi-chambered revolver in one phase when using Rapid Fire. The way I built it, if the gun can be used 'as is' by anyone esle too.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

You are confusing mechanics with special effects. They do not always have to match.

 

example:

The good old standard Block maneuver can be defined on a particular character as 'Taking it on the chin!'. When successfuly used the character interposes his chin in front of the incomming punch/kick/etc.. and takes no damage.

 

Multiple copies of the same power by way of doubling for every 5 un-limited points spent is just the mechanics. You can still define it as one item if you want. And if the GM has issue just apply the IPE Naked advantage on the doubling cost (which I already posted).

 

What page are the rules for this on? I don't know what its listed under in the index' date=' and I've never really looked into multiple copies of frameworks closely.[/quote']

 

Just to be totally clear, the basic rulebook only lets you do this with Equipment, not any power.

It's listed at the beginning on the Equipment chapter, as the Equipment Doubling rule (a favorite of munckin builds ever since)

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Here's the my latest proposal cleaned up and modified with some extra slot examples:

 

30 Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo: Multipower, 37-point reserve, all slots 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0), Limited Power x6 number of items is only to allow use of Rapid Fire with different ammo slots in combination with Expert Gun Handler 1 & 2 (+0), Limited Power Number of different ammo types in clips (speed loaders) are normally set before combat. Takes 1/2 phase to change ammo distribution of clips using Fast Draw. (+0) (37 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Power All slots can be Missle Deflected (even Explosive and Sparkler AOE slots which can't take Beam Limitation) (-1/4) [Notes: (x6 number of items)

 

Number of clips of each slot type must be defined at beginning of adventure.] - END=

1u 1) Armor Piercing Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 2) Penetrating Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Penetrating (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 3) Hollow Point Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 4) Explosive Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Explosion (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 5) Variable SFX Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Cold Iron, Silver, Holy, etc...; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 6) Normal Bullets: RKA 2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 7) Bean-Bag Bullets: EB 7d6+1 (37 Active Points); Limited Range (-1/4) - END=0

1u 8) Sparkler Bullets: Sight and Hearing Groups Flash 4d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

- END=

 

11 1 Gun with up to 6 different chambered bullets (instead of 6 guns): Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) for up to 15 Active Points of Quantity 6 (15 active points) on Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); OAF (-1) - END=0

- END=

 

4 Multi-Round Gun (part 1): Extra Limbs (6), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (1 Gun with up to 6 different chambered bullets (instead of 6 guns); -1/2) - END=0

4 Multi-Round Gun (part 2): Penalty Skill Levels: +3 vs. Offhand Penalty with Colt Peacemaker Multiple Item (6) Multipowers with All Attacks (9 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (1 Gun with up to 6 different chambered bullets (instead of 6 guns); -1/2) - END=0

 

You seem to have good ideas, but they do not match the rules.

 

For example in this build:

 

1) One cannot have different attack powers in framework slots fire off in the same phase.

 

2) One is already limited to changing clips to a Half Phase Action, you are adding in the ability to change the clip AND change the order of the bullets in a clip, still within a single half phase action (if I am reading your build correctly). If you are saying that it takes two half phase actions with Fast Draw, one for changing clips and one for changing the order of the bullets in a clip, then that is different.

 

3) Extra limbs does nothing for the problem (TMK, if so, please explain).

 

4) Your framework here would only allow one type of power in a single phase, not 8, even if you had the multipower points to allow multiple powers at once (i.e. if you did not violate point #1 here).

 

5) What does the Fully Invisible do? What power is it making invisible?

 

 

The only legal ways suggested so far in this thread for this to work is:

 

1) Buy a single attack power with a lot of advantages where each advantage either works or do not works based on the limitations placed on each advantage (which you suggested earlier) OR:

 

2) Buy multiple attack powers where each one triggers off of the previous one and the first one triggers off of the user (i.e. he pulls the trigger).

 

 

The first solution has the problem of being a very high active cost for that single power. Every additional bullet type increases the active cost.

 

The second solution has the problem of being a very high active cost for all of the powers combined (i.e. the base power is purchased over and over again), along with each power can only be used once per phase (i.e. multiple APs cannot be done in a phase) unless the auto-reset is purchased for the trigger, in which case Rapid Shot can be used to fire the pre-defined sequence multiple times. But, whatever sequence was set up for the triggers does not change (the sequence could be changed the next phase). It also has the problem that the user has no control over the triggers, hence, if he sets up 4 triggers and the first bullet knocks the opponent unconscious, the other 3 shots will continue to hit him (and there might be limitations in the rules that the triggers have to affect the same target or area, but I did not look that up).

 

Both of these solutions are standalone (i.e. cannot benefit from frameworks), hence, they are costly.

 

 

But, rules legal solutions using frameworks just do not work at all (unless you can come up with a way to do so which so far, you haven't), so I'm not quite sure why you keep trying to push such solutions as viable.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

1) One cannot have different attack powers in (1) framework slots fire off in the same phase.

 

WRONG!

 

When using multiple attack slots in 1 phase this construct is considered 6 different frameworks.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

WRONG!

 

When using multiple attack slots in 1 phase this construct is considered 6 different frameworks.

 

Yeah, this particular workaround came up in a previous discussion about the whole "MPA's from Frameworks" ruling.

 

 

Makes clones of the Mandarin REALLY nasty, but is still a workaround, IMHO, for a nanny-clause in the rules, largely because the Doubling rules only work for Equipment, thus preventing any-non focused builds from exploiting the ruling.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

WRONG!

 

When using multiple attack slots in 1 phase this construct is considered 6 different frameworks.

 

And what rule in the book (page number please) does this correspond to?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

So, I've begun really digging into my books.

 

So far, the sidebar on page 204 of Dark Champions is one point where this is kinda addressed. Unfortunately, so far as I've found, the "official" approach to this kind of problem is to plug ones ears and go "LA! LA! LA! I Can't hear you!"

 

I'll keep digging.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

1) One cannot have different attack powers in framework slots fire off in the same phase.

 

Under this build, you have used the Equipment Doubling rules to have not one, but six, multipowers. Each multipower can be set to a different slot, and each slot can be used to fire once in a Multiple Power Attack. Essentially, HM is using the equipment doubling rules to change your "GUN" multipower into six separate "Bullets in the chambers" Multipowers. Since you have six different frameworks, each can be used to contribute one attack to an MPA. [Dr. Destroyer has two attack MP's which he uses to MPA - this is perfectly book legal, and you lose the OCV penalty for rapid attack.]

 

3) Extra limbs does nothing for the problem (TMK' date=' if so, please explain).[/quote']

 

The extra limbs matches the extra equipment. You need one "limb" to fire each "chamber".

 

4) Your framework here would only allow one type of power in a single phase' date=' not 8, even if you had the multipower points to allow multiple powers at once (i.e. if you did not violate point #1 here).[/quote']

 

EACH of the six multipowers can have one type of power in a single phase. 6 Multipowers = 6 types of power.

 

5) What does the Fully Invisible do? What power is it making invisible?

 

Makes your 6 guns look like only one gun, and your five extra limbs look like your one limb which is holding the one gun. Why? because the SFX are that there is only one gun, and only one limb.

 

Need to rep HM for this solution - it looks kludgy on paper, but does the trick quite elegantly. NUTS - have to spread rep!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

And what rule in the book (page number please) does this correspond to?

 

read earlier in this thread:

 

5er page 546

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Under this build' date=' you have used the Equipment Doubling rules to have not one, but six, multipowers. Each multipower can be set to a different slot, and each slot can be used to fire once in a Multiple Power Attack. Essentially, HM is using the equipment doubling rules to change your "GUN" multipower into six separate "Bullets in the chambers" Multipowers. Since you have six different frameworks, each can be used to contribute one attack to an MPA. [Dr. Destroyer has two attack MP's which he uses to MPA - this is perfectly book legal, and you lose the OCV penalty for rapid attack.']

 

 

 

The extra limbs matches the extra equipment. You need one "limb" to fire each "chamber".

 

 

 

EACH of the six multipowers can have one type of power in a single phase. 6 Multipowers = 6 types of power.

 

 

 

Makes your 6 guns look like only one gun, and your five extra limbs look like your one limb which is holding the one gun. Why? because the SFX are that there is only one gun, and only one limb.

 

Need to rep HM for this solution - it looks kludgy on paper, but does the trick quite elegantly. NUTS - have to spread rep!

 

Thanks Hugh,

 

One minor quibble with your explanation.

 

This solution is NOT using a Multiple Power Attack. MPA is a situation where 2 or more different attacks are relying upon a single attack roll to determine if ALL attacks hit or miss.

 

This construct does not do that. It only allows multiple attacks using the default method of making a "ranged sweep" or Rapid Fire.

 

Heck, active point wise this construct is damn close to being near the 60 active point limit suggested in both USPD and Dark Champions for a Naked Advantage based Autofire with weapon of opportunity.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

And what rule in the book (page number please) does this correspond to?

 

Dark Champions Pg 183 "Differing Weapons" under Rapid Fire (with the standard "With GM's permission" caveat)

and

DC pg 265 "Obtaining Eqipment in Game Terms: Character Points: The 5 point doubling rule" 4th paragraph, beginning with "Items of eqipment bought with the 5 point doubling rule are considered 'seperate' from the original gadget"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Here's the latest cleaned up version:

 

27 6 Guns in 1 (Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo): Multipower, 37-point reserve, all slots 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0), Limited Power Number of different ammo types in clips (speed loaders) are normally set before combat. Takes 1/2 phase to change ammo distribution of clips using Fast Draw. (+0) (37 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1), Limited Power x6 number of items is only to allow use of Rapid Fire with different ammo slots in combination with 6 Guns in 1 (It's like he's using 6 different guns at one time! part 1 & 2). (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Power All slots can be Missle Deflected (even Explosive and Sparkler AOE slots which can't take Beam Limitation) (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4) [Notes: (x6 number of items) <--- {This accounts for 15 of the 27 Real Points above} Number of rounds of each slot type for each clip must be defined at beginning of adventure.] - END=

1u 1) Normal Bullets: RKA 2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 2) Variable SFX Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Cold Iron, Silver, Holy, etc...; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 3) Hollow Point Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 4) Armor Piercing Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 5) Penetrating Bullets: RKA 1d6, +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2), Penetrating (x2; +1) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 6) Rubber Bullets: EB 7d6+1 (37 Active Points); Limited Range (-1/4) - END=0

1u 7) Explosive Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Explosion (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 8) Sparkler Bullets: Sight and Hearing Groups Flash 4d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 9) Expanding Foam Bullets: Entangle 2d6, 3 DEF (Larger Wall (+1"), Stops A Given Sense Group Sight Group) (37 Active Points) - END=0

- END=

 

5 6 Guns in 1 (Instead of 6 guns): Invisible Power Effects, SFX Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2) for up to 15 Active Points of (x6 number of items, 15 active points) on 6 Guns in 1 (Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1) - END=0

- END=

 

3 6 Guns in 1 (It's like he's using 6 different guns at one time! part 1): Extra Limbs (6), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (Armor Piercing Bullets; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Limited Power Only to allow use x6 number of items and Rapid Fire with different ammo slots in combination with 6 Guns in 1 (It's like he's using 6 different guns at one time! part 1 & 2). (-1/2) - END=0

 

3 6 Guns in 1 (It's like he's using 6 different guns at one time! part 2): Penalty Skill Levels: +3 vs. Offhand Penalty with Colt Peacemaker Multiple Item (6) Multipowers with All Attacks (9 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (6 Guns in 1 (Instead of 6 guns); -1/2), Limited Power Only to allow use x6 number of items and Rapid Fire with different ammo slots in combination with 6 Guns in 1 (It's like he's using 6 different guns at one time! part 1 & 2). (-1/2) [Notes: Allows any remaining multipower 'slot' or bullet from an existing clip to be used first in any phase at no penalty. Use of Rapid Fire still imposes standard penalties for multiple shots fired. ] - END=

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

30 Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo: Multipower, 37-point reserve, all slots 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0), Limited Power x6 number of items is only to allow use of Rapid Fire with different ammo slots in combination with Expert Gun Handler 1 & 2 (+0), Limited Power Number of different ammo types in clips (speed loaders) are normally set before combat. Takes 1/2 phase to change ammo distribution of clips using Fast Draw. (+0) (37 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Power All slots can be Missle Deflected (even Explosive and Sparkler AOE slots which can't take Beam Limitation) (-1/4) [Notes: (x6 number of items)

 

Number of clips of each slot type must be defined at beginning of adventure.] - END=

1u 1) Armor Piercing Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 2) Penetrating Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Penetrating (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 3) Hollow Point Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 4) Explosive Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Explosion (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 5) Variable SFX Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Cold Iron, Silver, Holy, etc...; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 6) Normal Bullets: RKA 2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=0

1u 7) Bean-Bag Bullets: EB 7d6+1 (37 Active Points); Limited Range (-1/4) - END=0

1u 8) Sparkler Bullets: Sight and Hearing Groups Flash 4d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0

- END=

 

11 1 Gun with up to 6 different chambered bullets (instead of 6 guns): Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) for up to 15 Active Points of Quantity 6 (15 active points) on Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); OAF (-1) - END=0

- END=

 

4 Multi-Round Gun (part 1): Extra Limbs (6), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (1 Gun with up to 6 different chambered bullets (instead of 6 guns); -1/2) - END=0

4 Multi-Round Gun (part 2): Penalty Skill Levels: +3 vs. Offhand Penalty with Colt Peacemaker Multiple Item (6) Multipowers with All Attacks (9 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (1 Gun with up to 6 different chambered bullets (instead of 6 guns); -1/2) - END=0

 

Ok, I understand your build now.

 

Still some issues with it:

 

1) The -1/4 for all powers can be missile deflected should be a -0 limitation. Most of the powers in this build can already be missile deflected. This -1/4 limitation can be placed on the Explosion slot, but not on the normal ones or on the entire multipower. Of course, -1/4 Beam can be placed on some of the slots as well.

 

2) You did not pay the 15 points for the doubling effect. Those points are not increased or decreased with advantages or limitations. Just 15 points.

 

3) Extra limbs do not automatically give additional attacks per phase. The GM would have to allow this (which I suspect many GMs would).

 

4) The Invisibility should have been only on the Extra limbs (i.e. 5 Active Points +1 Fully Invisible = 10 Active Points). Extra Limbs already costs 0 END. Since there is no Str add to the bullet damage, there is no reason to make the Extra Limbs Reduced End.

 

5) 37 Active points result in 4 point Ultras before limitations (rounds closest, does not truncate, 5Er page 7). It matters little how many limitations you put on these multipower slots. They are all going to be 2 point Ultras (any total limitations in the range of -3/4 to -2 1/2 result in 2 point Ultras for this).

 

 

So, the cost of this should be more in the ballpark of:

 

16 Multipower (37 Active Points, -1 OAF, -1/4 real weapon)

U2 slot 1

U2 slot 2

U2 slot 3

U2 slot 4

U2 slot 5

U2 slot 6

U2 slot 7

U2 slot 8

 

15 Doubling Rule, 3 times (no advantages, no limitations)

 

4 Extra Limbs (5 Active, +1 Fully Invisible, -1 OAF, -1/2 Linked)

 

4 Skill Levels (9 Active, -1 OAF, -1/2 Linked)

 

For 55 real points.

 

Thanks Hugh,

 

One minor quibble with your explanation.

 

This solution is NOT using a Multiple Power Attack. MPA is a situation where 2 or more different attacks are relying upon a single attack roll to determine if ALL attacks hit or miss.

 

This construct does not do that. It only allows multiple attacks using the default method of making a "ranged sweep" or Rapid Fire.

 

Now for the interesting part.

 

This build can ONLY fire multiple different bullet attacks with the Multipower Attack (hence, the reason Hugh thought like he did).

 

Any Rapid Fire doing this results in a SINGLE attack power being used.

 

So, the user could fire off 3 AP shots with Rapid Shot, but he cannot also fire off some Explosions with that.

 

This build could fire 3 AP and 3 Explosion by firing off 1 AP and 1 Explosion via Multipower Attack Rapid Shot, followed by a second AP and Explosion via Multipower Attack Rapid Shot, etc.

 

But, the only way to get different types of attacks with your build here is to use Multipower Attack. Rapid Fire does not allow multiple attacks from DIFFERENT powers and each power in the multipower slots are different powers.

 

That is the original problem that the builds in this thread are trying to avoid. Rapid Fire can only be done on a single attack power, not multiple ones. Your build here does nothing to avoid that rule.

 

 

There is no difference between the build you just made and someone who created six actual guns with the 5 point doubling rule and actually had 6 hands to fire them.

 

Such a PC would have the same problem. Each gun could fire the type of bullet from its multipower selected slot with a MPA shot. But if Rapid Fire is used, it has to be used with the same attack power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Ok, I understand your build now.

 

 

No you don't.

 

You don't even appear to understand how to add all the Limitations up and figure out the real cost.

 

30 Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo: Multipower,

 

37-

all slots OAF (-1),

Real Weapon (-1/4),

Limited Power All slots can be Missle Deflected (even Explosive and Sparkler AOE slots which can't take Beam Limitation) (-1/4)

 

37 / 2.5 = 14.8 which rounds up to 15 real points.

Note that the Multipower reserve has 30 real points. Guess what? There's the 15 points for doubling up to 6.

 

Arguing over which minor limitations are legal is up to Gideon and his GM so your quibbles over them are meaningless.

 

Your conception of Multiple Power Attacks and how that relates to attacks based out of a Multipower is totally wrong.

 

For someone who posted a "how to" question of their own less than a month ago you have certainly gained in your confidence that you understand the system. I think this might actually be over-confidence instead.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

No you don't.

 

You don't even appear to understand how to add all the Limitations up and figure out the real cost.

 

30 Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo: Multipower,

 

37-

all slots OAF (-1),

Real Weapon (-1/4),

Limited Power All slots can be Missle Deflected (even Explosive and Sparkler AOE slots which can't take Beam Limitation) (-1/4)

 

37 / 2.5 = 14.8 which rounds up to 15 real points.

Note that the Multipower reserve has 30 real points. Guess what? There's the 15 points for doubling up to 6.

 

Arguing over which minor limitations are legal is up to Gideon and his GM so your quibbles over them are meaningless.

 

The rules are the rules, and often the rules are crystal clear.

 

Adding a limitation to a multipower reserve that does not limit every power in the multipower is not allowed. The -1/4 can be missile deflected limitation is not allowed since most of the RKAs in the multipower can already be missile deflected.

 

And if you added the 15 points to the multipower, that's not how it should be written up. The 15 points are not added to the multipower reserve cost (as per the doubling rules).

 

People will have a hard time understanding what you are doing if you do not explicitly spell it out. For example, I still have no idea why you purchased the 11 Real Point / 15 Active Point Gun Fully Invisible 0 End in your build. It does not make sense. What 15 Active Point base power was that affecting? The Doubling cost (which is not affected by advantages or limitations)???

 

I suspect you were trying to make the "6 distinct weapons" from the 5-point doubling rule into a single weapon (5 of them invisible or non-existent from a SFX POV), but without a base power to attach advantages to, that's not the way to do it.

 

Your conception of Multiple Power Attacks and how that relates to attacks based out of a Multipower is totally wrong.

 

You'll notice that Hugh also thought you were using an MPA. That is because the power you built cannot be used with Rapid Fire for different attack powers. That's the rules.

 

That's the rules conundrum that people have been wrestling with since this thread started, but you just drop it on the floor with this build. Rapid Fire is for single attack power with multiple attack rolls, MPA is for multiple attack powers with one attack roll. There are no rules for multiple attack powers with multiple rolls (unless one does both MPA and Rapid Fire, and that still has the limitations mentioned earlier) and hence, you cannot just add such a house rule and expect it to be legal for the OP's GM.

 

Your earlier build of having a single attack power with multiple advantages, each usable under certain conditions, can be used with Rapid Fire because it is a single attack power.

 

This build is not. The doubling rule makes it 6 distinct multipowers with 6 distinct set of attack powers within the multipowers.

 

Your build here is no different than having multiple multipowers with an attack power in each. Different attack powers not allowed with Rapid Fire. Different attack powers only allowed with MPA. Sorry. That’s the rules. Go ask Steve.

 

For someone who posted a "how to" question of their own less than a month ago you have certainly gained in your confidence that you understand the system. I think this might actually be over-confidence instead.

 

My confidence is based on playing this system on and off for over 25 years since 1E came out.

 

I noticed that you disagreed with me on the "how to" thread on an illegal rules question (Accurate One Hex), then went and asked Steve, and he agreed with me, not you. That should illustrate to you my level of rules confidence. I might not be a 5Er expert, but I know enough about the game system to understand how the rules interact.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

 

This build is not. The doubling rule makes it 6 distinct multipowers with 6 distinct set of attack powers within the multipowers.

 

Your build here is no different than having multiple multipowers with an attack power in each. Different attack powers not allowed with Rapid Fire. Different attack powers only allowed with MPA. Sorry. That’s the rules. Go ask Steve.

 

There is some precedent in the rules for it, such the aforementioned Dark Champions references

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

There is some precedent in the rules for it' date=' such the aforementioned Dark Champions references[/quote']

 

Well, I do not have that book. The first reference you made earlier might allow it (if it allows different powers to be used with Rapid Shot). Without the full text, it's hard to say. And it depends on what books and rules the GM is allowing. 5Er by itself does not support this.

 

The second reference you made appears to support what the 5-point doubling rule states: that each doubling creates different but identical items. That's an explicit feature of the doubling rule. More identical equipment, not additional identical abilities of existing equipment. Apples and oranges. Of course, this is different than what HM claims (that different power frameworks can be part of a single item using the doubling rules).

 

That's not what the doubling rules state. That's a SFX extrapolation and one that multiplies the number of charges by 6 for 15 points.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Well, I do not have that book. The first reference you made earlier might allow it (if it allows different powers to be used with Rapid Shot). Without the full text, it's hard to say. And it depends on what books and rules the GM is allowing. 5Er by itself does not support this.

 

The second reference you made appears to support what the 5-point doubling rule states: that each doubling creates different but identical items. That's an explicit feature of the doubling rule. More indentical equipment, not additional identical abilities of existing equipment. Apples and oranges. Of course, this is different than what HM claims (that different power frameworks can be part of a single item using the doubling rules).

 

That's not what the doubling rules state. That's a SFX extrapolation and one that multiplies the number of charges by 6 for 15 points.

 

Actually, I was quoting the first line of the paragraph for clarity of location, not rules support. The rest of the paragraph goes on to support the idea that the doubled equipment, as discrete items, should be considered seperate powers for purposes of MPA's, especially in cases such as weiding a weapon with each hand.

The Differing weapons section basically states that two different weapons at GM's descretion can be used with a Rapid Fire maneuver (I'm guessing the logic behind the idea is if you can shoot 2 different attacks at a single target, and you can shoot 2 attacks at 2 different targets, then you should probably also be able to 2 different attacks at 2 targets) the same way 2 different hand to hand weapons can be combined in a single Sweep.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Actually, I was quoting the first line of the paragraph for clarity of location, not rules support. The rest of the paragraph goes on to support the idea that the doubled equipment, as discrete items, should be considered seperate powers for purposes of MPA's, especially in cases such as weiding a weapon with each hand.

 

Precisely. I think the doubling rule does support multiple attacks from multiple identical items as part of a MPA as written.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

3) Extra limbs do not automatically give additional attacks per phase. The GM would have to allow this (which I suspect many GMs would).

 

The Extra limbs provide the SFX for being able to hold and fire six guns at once. A two handed human could not do this. You're thinking too much with the name of the power, and not its effects. The "extra limbs" construct merely provides the character with the capacity to manipulate all of his "extra guns" simultaneously. He really has only one gun, and one limb, but the equipment doubling and extra limbs provide the mechanical basis for getting the same results as a person with 6 arms and 6 guns.

 

This build can ONLY fire multiple different bullet attacks with the Multipower Attack (hence' date=' the reason Hugh thought like he did).[/quote']

 

Yup. Which is LESS limiting than firing them using a MPA.

 

That is the original problem that the builds in this thread are trying to avoid. Rapid Fire can only be done on a single attack power' date=' not multiple ones. Your build here does nothing to avoid that rule.[/quote']

 

By firing one bullet from each of the six phantom guns as an MPA, this build permits you to fire a series of different bullets in a single attack action. Wasn't that the desired result? I would certainly allow you to limit that by assessing a -2 OCV penalty against each shot after the first - that's more limiting than being able to fire all six and hit with all six with a single unmodified attack roll.

 

 

There is no difference between the build you just made and someone who created six actual guns with the 5 point doubling rule and actually had 6 hands to fire them.

 

That's the point - the character can fire six different bullets, one from each gun. SFX" The character fires six different bullets from his one gun. Isn't that what you wanted?

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

The Extra limbs provide the SFX for being able to hold and fire six guns at once. A two handed human could not do this. You're thinking too much with the name of the power, and not its effects.

 

Actually, I was thinking about how the power is actually written (page 173):

 

Having extra limbs does not, by itself, allow a character extra attacks in a phase.

 

The "extra limbs" construct merely provides the character with the capacity to manipulate all of his "extra guns" simultaneously. He really has only one gun, and one limb, but the equipment doubling and extra limbs provide the mechanical basis for getting the same results as a person with 6 arms and 6 guns.

 

Yes, I understood the reason for including it.

 

Yup. Which is LESS limiting than firing them using a MPA.

 

What does this mean? How can firing them with a MPA (the sentence you were responding to) be less limiting than firing them with a MPA (the sentence you wrote)?

 

By firing one bullet from each of the six phantom guns as an MPA, this build permits you to fire a series of different bullets in a single attack action. Wasn't that the desired result?

 

Actually, I agree that this build allows a MPA (unlike Hyper-man who claims it is for Rapid Fire).

 

But, a MPA is not what the OP was looking for. MPA is limited to a single target.

 

I do not agree (with Hyper-man) that this build allows different attack powers to be used with a Rapid Fire. That is really what the OP is looking for.

 

I would certainly allow you to limit that by assessing a -2 OCV penalty against each shot after the first - that's more limiting than being able to fire all six and hit with all six with a single unmodified attack roll.

 

But again, that's not the issue. Single target powers in an MPA are not legal against different targets. That's the issue.

 

That's the point - the character can fire six different bullets, one from each gun. SFX" The character fires six different bullets from his one gun. Isn't that what you wanted?

 

No, not if it is limited to a single target. That is not what the OP wanted.

 

 

What he wanted is the ability to fire different types of bullets at different targets, all in the same phase. This build does not accomplish that goal.

 

 

The only two builds so far in this thread that can legally (according to RAW) accomplish that goal is the trigger one and the all of the advantages placed on one power (but limited in which actually work) builds.

 

But, those too have inherent disadvantages.