Master List of Scales in HERO

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

First, you didn't know the difference between linear and exponential.

Then, you didn't know the difference between absolute and relative.

Now, you don't know the difference between "not knowing anything," "knowing something," and "knowing everything."

 

What conclusion am I to draw from this?

You are mistaking your own assumptions for facts. That is not a good mistake to make.

 

For example, it is only your assumption that I didn't know the difference between linear and exponential.

 

So what? Let's say we are at that one point. Does that mean that they suddenly become both relative or both absolute?

No because they are not the same statement. If they were the same statement then they would IMO have to be both relative or both absolute.

 

Are you getting closer at least? Should I keep trying?

Yes, please do.

 

Well, I'm glad to see you at least know the difference between apples, kilograms, and character points.

The question is, do you?

 

If Tom has got 30 apples and you've got 20 apples, that is a difference of 10 apples.

 

10 apples is an absolute difference.

 

For example, if your friend Pete comes along, and he has 10 apples, you can add those apples to your apples, and you'll have the same number of apples that Tom does (20 apples + 10 apples = 30 apples).

 

 

If you can lift 400 kg, and Tom can lift 700 kg that is a difference of 300 kg.

 

300 kg is an absolute difference.

 

For example, if your friend Pete comes along, and he can lift 300 kg, then the two of you together can lift the same weight that Tom can lift (400 kg + 300 kg = 700 kg).

 

 

But that kind of thing doesn't work so well for Hero lifting STR.

 

If your character has 20 Points of Hero Lifting STR and Tom's character has 30 Points of Hero Lifting STR, that is a difference of 10 Points of Hero Lifting STR. But that is only a relative difference.

 

You can’t look at that 10 points of difference like you can look at a difference of 10 apples or 300 kg.

 

With the 10 apple difference it was a simple matter of finding somebody else with 10 apples, but unlike the apples example, it is not as simple to fill that STR gap. A 20 STR character and a 10 STR character can not combine their lifting abilitys and match the lifting ability of a single 30 STR character. (20 STR plus 10 STR does not equal 30 STR)

 

Does that explain how it is different?

 

If not, here is a different perspective on the matter of logarithmic scales. . . .

 

 

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~branton/interaction/faqpoly.htm

 

The second type of nonlinear relationship is a logarithmic relationship. Logarithms are useful in cases where it is necessary to stress the difference between scores in a manner that is proportional to their ratio rather than in terms of their absolute difference.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

You are mistaking your own assumptions for facts. That is not a good mistake to make.

 

For example, it is only your assumption that I didn't know the difference between linear and exponential.

I can't see what's in your head, only what's in your posts. You said that you can't know anything. I said, that you can know something. You assumed that I said that therefore you can know everything.

 

No because they are not the same statement. If they were the same statement then they would IMO have to be both relative or both absolute.

Are you not following your own posts? This is what I've been saying to you, and you keep arguing against me.

"5% raise" and "$60 raise" are two different statements. One is relative, one is absolute. Even if they refer to the exact same phenomenon.

"+10 points of STR" and "four times the lifting capacity" are two different statements. One is absolute and one is relative, even though they refer to the same phenomenon.

"+300 kg" and "four times the mass" are two different statements. One is absolute and one is relative, even if they refer to the same thing.

 

Are you with me here? If so, the next question is, what does this have to do with anything?

 

If Tom has got 30 apples and you've got 20 apples, that is a difference of 10 apples.

 

10 apples is an absolute difference.

He also has one and a half times as many apples. That is a relative difference.

 

But that kind of thing doesn't work so well for Hero lifting STR.

That depends on what "kind of thing" you're referring to. We both agree than lifting capacity is exponential in HERO, right? Is this what you want to argue about?

 

If your character has 20 Points of Hero Lifting STR and Tom's character has 30 Points of Hero Lifting STR, that is a difference of 10 Points of Hero Lifting STR. But that is only a relative difference.

No. It's an absolute difference in units called "points of STR."

 

You can’t look at that 10 points of difference like you can look at a difference of 10 apples or 300 kg.

That depends on what you want to do with it. I'm fully aware (as I feel like I've said dozens of times by now) that lifting capacity in HERO is not on the same scale as "number of apples" or "buying power of money". It's exponential (is there an echo in here?) as opposed to linear.

 

With the 10 apple difference it was a simple matter of finding somebody else with 10 apples, but unlike the apples example, it is not as simple to fill that STR gap. A 20 STR character and a 10 STR character can not combine their lifting abilitys and match the lifting ability of a single 30 STR character. (20 STR plus 10 STR does not equal 30 STR)

 

Does that explain how it is different?

It sure does, but it doesn't explain what you're arguing about. You've described a property of an exponential progression. I have never argued that the STR-to-Lifting-capacity is anything other than exponential. It's right in my list in post #1. It's one of the very first items in the list, in fact.

 

So again, I wonder: what is your point?

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

I can't see what's in your head, only what's in your posts.

But that is not what you said. . . .

First, you didn't know the difference between linear and exponential.

Then, you didn't know the difference between absolute and relative.

That is a statement about what I know, not what is in my posts.

 

You said that you can't know anything. I said, that you can know something. You assumed that I said that therefore you can know everything.

I said that the information given, by itself, does not tell you anything about the specific information that was asked for. . . . It tells you something, but that something was not what was asked for.

 

Look back at the actual question:

 

“In Hero Game System Terms, Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B---what does that difference mean, when measured in kg?”

 

If one is looking for an actual number in terms of kg, then the information that one character can lift 4 times as much is not at all helpful. It might lead you to the answer, if you had some additional information about the situation. But, if the only thing you know about the situation, is that "A_lift kg = 4 X B_lift kg," then you are not any further toward getting an actual number of kg than you were without the information.

 

 

No because they are not the same statement. If they were the same statement then they would IMO have to be both relative or both absolute.

Are you not following your own posts? This is what I've been saying to you, and you keep arguing against me.

 

"5% raise" and "$60 raise" are two different statements. One is relative, one is absolute. Even if they refer to the exact same phenomenon.

"+10 points of STR" and "four times the lifting capacity" are two different statements. One is absolute and one is relative, even though they refer to the same phenomenon.

"+300 kg" and "four times the mass" are two different statements. One is absolute and one is relative, even if they refer to the same thing.

 

"5% raise" and "$60 raise" are two different statements, because they do not convey the same information.

 

Imagine that you were to hear somebody on the radio say that they got a "5% raise." Could you figure out, with no additional information, that it would be the same as getting a "$60 raise" ?

 

No, of course not, because those two statements are very different.

 

 

However, imagine that you were to hear somebody on the radio say that their Hero System Character had 10 points more lifting STR than some other Hero System Character. In that case, would you know, with no additional information needed, that the one character could lift 4 times as much as the other?

 

Yes, obviously you would, because those 2 statements are saying the same thing. It would be like saying that "I ran 5000 m" instead of saying that "I ran 5 km" ; those two statements are just different ways to say the exact same thing.

 

Now do you understand why "5% raise" and "$60 raise" are two different statements. But why "+ 10 Hero Lifting STR" and "lifting 4 times as much" are telling you the same thing?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

But that is not what you said. . . .

 

That is a statement about what I know, not what is in my posts.

Would it have helped if I had prefixed every statement I made with, "Based on what you've said in your posts..."? Somehow I doubt it. We are having a conversation on a bulletin board, we aren't using telepathy. I would have thought it was obvious that my reactions are to your posts, not to whatever is in your head. It seems like every post you make shows less and less understanding of the English language. It seems this conversation has been a complete waste of time.

 

I said that the information given, by itself, does not tell you anything about the specific information that was asked for. . . . It tells you something, but that something was not what was asked for.

And I simply pointed out how you contradicted yourself. You just did it again. Do you see how "does not tell you anything" is contradicted by "tells you something"? You probably don't, since you haven't so far. (Based on your posts.)

 

However, imagine that you were to hear somebody on the radio say that their Hero System Character had 10 points more lifting STR than some other Hero System Character. In that case, would you know, with no additional information needed, that the one character could lift 4 times as much as the other?

Well, you'd need the additional information that lifting capacity in HERO is exponential (provided in my original post), and precisely what that exponential relationship with the STR stat is. Many other stats in HERO (as listed in my first post) do not have an exponential progression.

 

Yes, obviously you would, because those 2 statements are saying the same thing. It would be like saying that "I ran 5000 m" instead of saying that "I ran 5 km" ; those two statements are just different ways to say the exact same thing.

Provided the listener knows how to convert meters to kilometers.

 

Now do you understand why "5% raise" and "$60 raise" are two different statements. But why "+ 10 Hero Lifting STR" and "lifting 4 times as much" are telling you the same thing?

But "two different statements" and "telling you different things" are not the same thing. Just because you can draw the same conclusion from two different statements, doesn't mean they're both absolute or both relative.

 

That's all I'm going to say on this completely OT subject. I've wasted enough time on it. If you have any problems with my List of Scales in HERO, please use the following procedure:

 

1. Figure out precisely what it is you disagree with.

2. Think it all the way through.

3. Double-check your work.

4. Sleep on it.

5. Go over it again, to make sure.

6. Write down the disagreement as clearly and consicely and specifically as possible.

7. Proof-read what you wrote.

8. Sleep on it.

9. Proof-read it again.

10. Think over the whole issue one last time, and if you still disagree on the particular issue, post what you wrote to this thread.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Would it have helped if I had prefixed every statement I made with, "Based on what you've said in your posts..."? Somehow I doubt it. We are having a conversation on a bulletin board, we aren't using telepathy. I would have thought it was obvious that my reactions are to your posts, not to whatever is in your head.

 

It is not a matter of “what I said” vs “what is in my head.”

 

It is a matter of understanding what the “facts” are vs what is just "your own opinion.” That sort of thing would be helpful for you to keep in mind.

 

What I was suggesting is that you should have prefixed some of those statements in a way that showed they were your opinion, rather than “given facts.”

 

I said that the information given, by itself, does not tell you anything about the specific information that was asked for. . . . It tells you something, but that *something* was not what was asked for.

And I simply pointed out how you contradicted yourself. You just did it again. Do you see how "does not tell you anything" is contradicted by "tells you something"? You probably don't, since you haven't so far.

Do you understand that it is possible to know something about one factor, but know absolutely nothing about a different factor?

 

Just knowing that Character A is 5% stronger than Character B doesn’t, in and of itself, tell you anything about an actual difference in lift, in terms of number of kg.

 

However, imagine that you were to hear somebody on the radio say that their Hero System Character had 10 points more lifting STR than some other Hero System Character. In that case, would you know, *with no additional information* needed, that the one character could lift 4 times as much as the other?

Well, you'd need the additional information that lifting capacity in HERO is exponential (provided in my original post), and precisely what that exponential relationship with the STR stat is. Many other stats in HERO (as listed in my first post) do not have an exponential progression.

 

In this case, IMO you are confusing the difference, between not understanding the terminology and not actually having enough data.

 

Yes, there is an assumption that one understands the terminology (Hero Stats) and also the basic language. The point is that the information IS there if one understands it. But that is simply not true with the statement about “5% increase in wage,” even given the assumption that one understands the terminology and language, there is to not enough data in such a statement to come up with an actual dollar amount for the raise.

 

 

Yes, obviously you would, because those 2 statements are saying the same thing. It would be like saying that "I ran 5000 m" instead of saying that "I ran 5 km" ; those two statements are just different ways to say the exact same thing.

Provided the listener knows how to convert meters to kilometers.

Again your statement above is IMO a case of confusing the difference between “not understanding the terminology” and “not actually having enough data.” The data is there–if you understand the terminology.

 

 

Now do you understand why "5% raise" and "$60 raise" are two different statements. But why "+ 10 Hero Lifting STR" and "lifting 4 times as much" are telling you the same thing?

But "two different statements" and "telling you different things" are not the same thing. Just because you can draw the same conclusion from two different statements, doesn't mean they're both absolute or both relative.

Again, I believe that you are confusing the difference between terminology and data. 5km vs 5,000m may seem like a difference in data, but it is only really a diffference in terminology. The same thing goes for "+ 10 Hero Lifting STR" and "lifting 4 times as much." They may be different terminology, but the actual data is the same.

 

If two statements are equal, then, in the cases I can think of, they are either both absolute or both relative.

 

And "+ 10 Hero Lifting STR" = "lifting 4 times as much"

 

It is the same as saying that: “A + B” = “B + A”

“A+B” may look a bit different than “B+A,” but they are really just saying the same thing.

 

 

That's all I'm going to say on this completely OT subject. I've wasted enough time on it.

 

If OT means “on topic” you are correct.

 

I am trying to explain to you why I feel that your list of scales needs to be corrected. One specific example of a place where I feel that there is an error is your assessment of the impact of Combat Skill Levels on game world combat ability. But, in order to do so, some ground work needs to be done first.

 

For example, the understanding that differences such as “+10 Hero Lifting STR” actually represent ratios between levels of ability. This perspective is important to understanding my general views about the functioning of exponential scales in Hero. This perspective will, in turn, lead to the explaination of why IMO increases given by Combat Skill Levels levels do not scale in a linear manner to increases in game world combat ability.

 

However, one needs a certain amount of willingness to stay with an argument in order to come to a conclusion of such a debate.

[GAZZA]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Not wanting to get in on the flame war; I do have an observation that I'm not sure is relevant or not with regard to mental powers.

 

The supposition is that a roll of 150 against an EGO of 110 is the same as a roll of 50 against an EGO of 10. I submit that this is not actually the case, because before there is any effect from the power there will be a breakout roll.

 

Let's say that in both cases the aggressor was attempting an EGO + 30 effect, so in both cases he succeeds by 10, imposing a -2 on the breakout roll. Against EGO 110 guy, this is inconsequential (base breakout roll is 31-, so still only fails on an 18) whereas against the EGO 10 guy it is not (base breakout roll is 11-; now it's only 9-). Even if we ignore the fact that the 3d6 roll is bell curved rather than linear, we still find that in order to impose the same penalty on EGO 110 guy (in other words, to make him fail on a 16 or more) would need an effect roll of 220.

 

 

Does that not make it non-linear?

[GAZZA]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Addendum: technically, for the position on the scale to be irrelevant, an EGO + 40 roll should have the same chance of taking effect regardless of what the EGO is (right?) Which means that the breakout roll for the target should be the same.

 

EGO + 30 effect against an EGO 10 has an 11- chance of working at the minimum roll (ie 40). To get the same effect against EGO 20 you'd need to get a roll of 60; against an EGO of 30 you need a roll of 80; against EGO 40 you need 100; and so forth. I suspect this still counts as linear though, right?

[Reality Czech]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

PhilFleischmann and Warp9:

If you are both so convinced you are correct, why not just let it go? Clearly the other guy is deluded and possibly suffering from some sort of mental handicap.

I know it goes against all message board logic to stop arguing just because the other person can't accept your point, but I think you have both reached and exceeded the point of diminishing returns on this one.

It looks to me like at this point both of you could just be replying to each other with "Bump" and accomplishing the same thing.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

PhilFleischmann and Warp9:

If you are both so convinced you are correct, why not just let it go? Clearly the other guy is deluded and possibly suffering from some sort of mental handicap.

I know it goes against all message board logic to stop arguing just because the other person can't accept your point, but I think you have both reached and exceeded the point of diminishing returns on this one.

It looks to me like at this point both of you could just be replying to each other with "Bump" and accomplishing the same thing.

From my perspective, it is always possible that the other person has some valid view which I do not understand.

 

Obviously I disagree with Phil, but that doesn't mean I'm actually correct---it only means that I think I am correct.

 

Normally an agrument is built up of premises which lead to some conclusion. Unfortunately, often times the premises themselves are cause for further argument. In some cases, it is necessary to go a great distance from the original argument in order to reach some place of agreement.

 

It does seem that any sort of agreement was elusive in this case---but I was hopeful that we'd get there eventually.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

From my perspective, it is always possible that the other person has some valid view which I do not understand.

 

Obviously I disagree with Phil, but that doesn't mean I'm actually correct---it only means that I think I am correct.

 

Normally an agrument is built up of premises which lead to some conclusion. Unfortunately, often times the premises themselves are cause for further argument. In some cases, it is necessary to go a great distance from the original argument in order to reach some place of agreement.

 

It does seem that any sort of agreement was elusive in this case---but I was hopeful that we'd get there eventually.

 

Well, if it was hope that was driving you then I withdraw my statement(s)

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Well' date=' if it was [b']hope[/b] that was driving you then I withdraw my statement(s)

I'll admit that "hope" was not my only motivation. . . .

 

I like a heated argument now and again as well!

[GAZZA]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Warp9: would it be fair to characterise your position as less that the OP is wrong, and more that you don't feel that a 10030 DEX should dominate a 10000 DEX (to pick one of your examples)? I think the OP's use of the terms linear, exponential, and geometric are definitely mathematically correct.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Warp9: would it be fair to characterise your position as less that the OP is wrong' date=' and more that you don't feel that a 10030 DEX [b']should[/b] dominate a 10000 DEX (to pick one of your examples)? I think the OP's use of the terms linear, exponential, and geometric are definitely mathematically correct.

 

Obviously a 10,030 DEX would dominate a 10,000 DEX. I believe that we can all agree on that part.

 

I would say that the abilities of a character with 10,030 DEX are far greater than those of a character with a 10,000 DEX. (that is from the impact of this difference ability in the game world)

 

I would also say that the lifting Strength of a character with 10,030 STR is far greater than that of a character with a 10,000 STR. (I mean from the perspective of what they can lift in the game world--the stronger character can lift 64 X as much as the weaker character)

 

However, I would not say that the speed of a character with 10,030" flight is that much greater than the speed of a character with 10,000" flight. A difference of 30" flight out of 10,000" is no big deal (IMO, if you were watching these characters move you'd see little difference---the difference is a drop in the bucket).

 

The STR is obviously exponential, whereas the combat flight is obviously linear.

 

 

What I'm arguing is that the fact there is a great difference between characters with 10,030 DEX and 10,000 DEX implies to me that there is not a linear relationship here.

 

To put it another way, if the DEX were linear, then 10,030 and 10,000 should be almost exactly the same in a contest (they are 99% the same by raw value), but they are obviously not 99% the same in game impact, thus they are probably not linear.

[GAZZA]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

OK, I think I see where you're driving with this. STR is an exponential scale; double the STR stat and you get (often) way more than double the real effect (how much you can lift). You're suggesting that DEX is on the same sort of scale as STR.

 

I would agree with that. There is evidence to back it up. +6 DEX, for example, allows you to accurately shoot twice as far as you could before (range modifiers are exponential).

 

On the other hand, though, +5 DEX doesn't double your ability to use a DEX based skill effectively. The difference between 10000 DEX-dude and 10030 DEX-dude's Combat Driving skills is going to be completely negligible in just about any conceivable circumstance.

 

It looks like DEX has some linear and some exponential characteristics, if my understanding is correct.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

OK, I think I see where you're driving with this. STR is an exponential scale; double the STR stat and you get (often) way more than double the real effect (how much you can lift). You're suggesting that DEX is on the same sort of scale as STR.

 

I would agree with that. There is evidence to back it up. +6 DEX, for example, allows you to accurately shoot twice as far as you could before (range modifiers are exponential).

 

On the other hand, though, +5 DEX doesn't double your ability to use a DEX based skill effectively. The difference between 10000 DEX-dude and 10030 DEX-dude's Combat Driving skills is going to be completely in just about any conceivable circumstance.

 

It looks like DEX has some linear and some exponential characteristics, if my understanding is correct.

Sounds good to me.

[Gadodel]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

I've read through this thread bit by bit over the last couple of days. My Math 8- was tested to be sure. Perhaps, someone with a more math skills can put it all together as a FAQ or even a lesson plan. Why? Someone could point to this thread and say 'see, HERO has too much math!' And we could show that the math is not only helpful/necessary, but not all that hard. I think Phil started the thread towards this way, but a debate ensued. I am sure what I am asking for is probably already in here, but again; that whole Math 8- thingee.

 

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

I've read through this thread bit by bit over the last couple of days. My Math 8- was tested to be sure. Perhaps, someone with a more math skills can put it all together as a FAQ or even a lesson plan. Why? Someone could point to this thread and say 'see, HERO has too much math!' And we could show that the math is not only helpful/necessary, but not all that hard. I think Phil started the thread towards this way, but a debate ensued. I am sure what I am asking for is probably already in here, but again; that whole Math 8- thingee.

 

The basic stuff is pretty simple, it is just that the arguments about it got a tad complex.

 

And the understanding of my arguments about the matter is not really directly necessary to play the game---it is just a matter of whether or not "the Master List of Scales" should be revised.

 

And I'm sure that Phil believes that everybody should ignore my arguments anyway.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

It is a matter of understanding what the “facts” are vs what is just "your own opinion.”

We're talking about math here. Opinions have nothing to do with it.

 

Again, I believe that you are confusing the difference between terminology and data. 5km vs 5,000m may seem like a difference in data, but it is only really a diffference in terminology. The same thing goes for "+ 10 Hero Lifting STR" and "lifting 4 times as much." They may be different terminology, but the actual data is the same.

No. "5 km" and "5000 m" are both *absolute* measures of distance. "+10 STR" is an *absolute* measure of a difference in points of STR. "Lifting 4 times as much" is a relative measure of lifting capacity.

 

And "+ 10 Hero Lifting STR" = "lifting 4 times as much"

 

It is the same as saying that: “A + B” = “B + A”

No it isn't. One is the commutative law of addition, and the other is a conversion of STR points into lifting capacity based on the rules of the HERO System. They are not analogous at all.

 

I am trying to explain to you why I feel that your list of scales needs to be corrected. One specific example of a place where I feel that there is an error is your assessment of the impact of Combat Skill Levels on game world combat ability. But, in order to do so, some ground work needs to be done first.

(Emphasis mine) If you want to make some point about CSL's, feel free to do so. I've agreed from post #1, that lifting capacity based on STR is exponential. Simply stating that CSLs "don't feel linear" to you, is not an argument.

 

For example, the understanding that differences such as “+10 Hero Lifting STR” actually represent ratios between levels of ability.

No kidding. That's what exponential means. Can we move on please?

 

This perspective is important to understanding my general views about the functioning of exponential scales in Hero. This perspective will, in turn, lead to the explaination of why IMO increases given by Combat Skill Levels levels do not scale in a linear manner to increases in game world combat ability.

 

However, one needs a certain amount of willingness to stay with an argument in order to come to a conclusion of such a debate.

I'm still waiting for your arguments to *begin*. You need not spend any more time posting about how lifting capacity is exponential, or how +10 STR, at any level, means 4x lifting capacity. We are already in agreement on that. I am waiting with baited breath (but that's only because I had sushi for lunch) to read how exponential lifting leads to the conclusion that CSL's are non-linear.

 

A base character has 10 STR and can lift 100 kg.

+5 STR adds 100 kg to his lift.

Another +5 STR adds 200 kg.

Another +5 STR adds 400 kg.

Another +5 STR adds 800 kg.

Another +5 STR adds 1600 kg.

Another +5 STR adds 3200 kg.

 

One Combat Skill Level adds +1 to his OCV (or whatever it might apply to).

Another CSL adds another +1 OCV.

Another CSL adds another +1 OCV.

Another CSL adds another +1 OCV.

Another CSL adds another +1 OCV.

Another CSL adds another +1 OCV.

 

As you should be able to see, lifting is exponential, and CSL's are linear.

 

If the first CSL added +1 OCV,

and the second CSL added another +2 OCV,

and the third CSL added another +4 OCV,

and the fourth CSL added another +8 OCV,

and the fifth CSL added another +16 OCV,

*then* it would be exponential.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

GAZZA,

 

You make an interesting point. It's something I hadn't thought about, and almost seems like it might be a problem. It essentially means that you need an additional 6d6 of Mind Control (or other mental power) for each +10 EGO of the target. 3d6 gives you the additional +10 pips of effect to achieve the desired result, and the other 3d6 to offset the additional +2 the target gots on his breakout roll. I'm going to have to double check the rules on this. I may house rule this "problem" away, but that's a separate discussion.

 

But, yes, it's still linear.

[GAZZA]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

GAZZA,

You make an interesting point. It's something I hadn't thought about, and almost seems like it might be a problem. It essentially means that you need an additional 6d6 of Mind Control (or other mental power) for each +10 EGO of the target. 3d6 gives you the additional +10 pips of effect to achieve the desired result, and the other 3d6 to offset the additional +2 the target gots on his breakout roll. I'm going to have to double check the rules on this. I may house rule this "problem" away, but that's a separate discussion.

 

I was all set with a big thread about how Mental Powers at the cosmic scale were gimped because of this... but when I actually did the sums, it doesn't actually work out that way.

 

Assume a 350 point Mentalist has EGO 25, spends 5 points on Mental Defence (so MD 10), and has a 10d6 Mind Control power. Against his opposite number twin, an average roll gives him a minimal success ("target will do something he is inclined to do anyway") with a 14- breakout roll.

 

If we assume a 700 point cosmic version spends twice the number of points on these core abilities, then he has an EGO of 40 (spending 60 points on EGO instead of 30), has a total mental defence of 18, and a 20d6 Mind Control power. Now an average roll gives him EGO+22; for the same level of effect, the breakout roll is now 13-, so he's actually gotten better. The issue here I think is that EGOs don't increase as rapidly as the attack does. You'd see the same results with the relevant chances of a brick STUNning another brick, since the mechanic is similar (STUN through DEF > CON) and CON costs as much as EGO.

 

Of course, if cosmic heroes spend their points more defensively than their non-cosmic counterparts this argument falls apart, but a brief glance through Galactic Champions last night suggested to me that there's still plenty of low EGO targets for a cosmic mentalist to play with.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

We're talking about math here. Opinions have nothing to do with it.

No, it had to do with your opinion about my mathematical knowledge.

 

Looking back on your exact post:

 

First, you didn't know the difference between linear and exponential.

Then, you didn't know the difference between absolute and relative.

Now, you don't know the difference between "not knowing anything," "knowing something," and "knowing everything."

Of course, I could also say that "your posts say the same thing about you," but it would be only my opinion about what you've written.

 

 

No. "5 km" and "5000 m" are both *absolute* measures of distance. "+10 STR" is an *absolute* measure of a difference in points of STR. "Lifting 4 times as much" is a relative measure of lifting capacity.

It seems that it is necessary to get a bit more basic to see if we can find some common ground.

 

Lets say that we are talking about Character A and Character B.

 

Character B is 10 points stronger than Character A. And I'm going to express Character A's strength value as A_STR So I'll write Character B's STR as: "A_STR + 10"

 

The formula for Hero Lifting in kg is:

 

Hero Lift (kg) = 25 kg X 2^(STR / 5)

 

So for character B's STR (which is A_STR+10) that would be:

 

Hero Lift (kg) = 25kg X 2^( (A_STR + 10) / 5)

 

Do you agree that the "STR + 10" in the above statement represents a relative difference?

 

 

A base character has 10 STR and can lift 100 kg.

+5 STR adds 100 kg to his lift.

Another +5 STR adds 200 kg.

Another +5 STR adds 400 kg.

Another +5 STR adds 800 kg.

Another +5 STR adds 1600 kg.

Another +5 STR adds 3200 kg.

 

One Combat Skill Level adds +1 to his OCV (or whatever it might apply to).

Another CSL adds another +1 OCV.

Another CSL adds another +1 OCV.

Another CSL adds another +1 OCV.

Another CSL adds another +1 OCV.

Another CSL adds another +1 OCV.

 

As you should be able to see, lifting is exponential, and CSL's are linear.

 

If the first CSL added +1 OCV,

and the second CSL added another +2 OCV,

and the third CSL added another +4 OCV,

and the fourth CSL added another +8 OCV,

and the fifth CSL added another +16 OCV,

*then* it would be exponential.

But the real question is what does "adding + 1 OCV" represent in game world terms?

 

Does it represent a linear increase or something else? I don't think adding +1 OCV represents a linear increase in game world ability.

 

Imagine a character with an earthquake power which is rated on the Richter scale (exponential). If I am able to keep on adding +1 Richter point to my earthquake for each level of earthquake making ability, that is not a linear increase in earthquake power.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

If we assume a 700 point cosmic version spends twice the number of points on these core abilities' date=' then he has an EGO of 40 (spending 60 points on EGO instead of 30), has a total mental defence of 18, and a 20d6 Mind Control power. Now an average roll gives him EGO+22; for the same level of effect, the breakout roll is now 13-, so he's actually gotten [b']better[/b]. The issue here I think is that EGOs don't increase as rapidly as the attack does. You'd see the same results with the relevant chances of a brick STUNning another brick, since the mechanic is similar (STUN through DEF > CON) and CON costs as much as EGO.

I think you made a slight calculation error: 20d6 gives an average roll of 70, subtract the 18 MD, and you get 52, which would be EGO+12, so the breakout roll is 15-.

 

But yes, it is fairly standard that equally-powerful mentalists have a hard time affecting each other. The next question is, what EGO does a typical 700-point NON-mentalist have? Although we should prabably start a new thread for this topic.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Do you agree that the "STR + 10" in the above statement represents a relative difference?

Nope. As long as it's a specific number of points, it's absolute. Even if you can draw a conclusion from it that's relative.

 

But the real question is what does "adding + 1 OCV" represent in game world terms?

It represents a small increase in the likelihood of hitting one's target. For targets with a DCV that is one higher than the OCV (after all modifiers), it is a 12.5% increase in probability. For higher and lower DCVs, the increase is smaller. Or to put it in other terms, it represents the ability to hit targets of one higher DCV with any given probability (however you want to designate that: a 50% chance, a 62.5% chance, a reasonable chance, almost certainty, just a little bit of a chance, etc.).

 

I don't think adding +1 OCV represents a linear increase in game world ability.

I'm still waiting for your argument supporting this. Regardless of how any particular GM describes in in game world terms, it is a linear increase in game rules/mechanics terms.

 

Imagine a character with an earthquake power which is rated on the Richter scale (exponential). If I am able to keep on adding +1 Richter point to my earthquake for each level of earthquake making ability, that is not a linear increase in earthquake power.

Correct.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Lets say that we are talking about Character A and Character B.

 

Character B is 10 points stronger than Character A. And I'm going to express Character A's strength value as A_STR So I'll write Character B's STR as: "A_STR + 10"

 

The formula for Hero Lifting in kg is:

 

Hero Lift (kg) = 25 kg X 2^(STR / 5)

 

So for character B's STR (which is A_STR+10) that would be:

 

Hero Lift (kg) = 25kg X 2^( (A_STR + 10) / 5)

 

Do you agree that the "STR + 10" in the above statement represents a relative difference?

Nope. As long as it's a specific number of points, it's absolute. Even if you can draw a conclusion from it that's relative.

Ah, but do you remember the "A + B = B + A" thing?

 

You agreed that those were the same, and with a bit of math work, I can show you how the "+ 10" in the above statement is mathematically equal to a "X 4"

 

As I've said above, Character B's Lift = 25kg X 2^( (A_STR + 10) / 5)

 

With some simple manipulation Character B's Lift = 25kg X 2^( (A_STR / 5) + (10 / 5) )

 

And by the properties of exponents with like bases: 2^(4+3) = 2^(4) X 2^(3)

 

Thus: 2^( (A_STR / 5) + (10 / 5) ) can be rewritten as 2^(10/5) X 2^(A_STR / 5 )

 

So Character B's Lift = 2^(10/5) X 25kg X 2^(A_STR / 5 )

 

Character B's Lift = 2^(2) X 25kg X 2^(A_STR / 5 )

 

Character B's Lift = 4 X 25kg X 2^(A_STR / 5 )

 

Therefore:

 

Character B's Lift =

25kg X 2^( (A_STR + 10) / 5) = 4 X 25kg X 2^( (A_STR) / 5)

 

Thus, unless you can find fault in my math, you can see how that the "+10" in the above formula is mathematically identical to a "X4"

 

 

But the real question is what does "adding + 1 OCV" represent in game world terms?

It represents a small increase in the likelihood of hitting one's target. For targets with a DCV that is one higher than the OCV (after all modifiers), it is a 12.5% increase in probability. For higher and lower DCVs, the increase is smaller. Or to put it in other terms, it represents the ability to hit targets of one higher DCV with any given probability (however you want to designate that: a 50% chance, a 62.5% chance, a reasonable chance, almost certainty, just a little bit of a chance, etc.).

Could we agree that this change in OCV would amount to a "relative difference" from the perspective on characters in the game world?

[Reality Czech]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

I want to stop reading this thread but I just can't, lol.