Master List of Scales in HERO

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

It is A.

 

Both the CV case and the Mental Powers Effect case are about contests between characters. I feel that relative difference is more important than actual linear difference between characters.

Well, I cannot account for how you feel. The objective fact of the matter is that it is the absolute difference in CV that determines the roll needed to hit. And it is also the absolute difference between pips of effect rolled and the target's EGO that determine the results of Mental Powers. And those differences are the same regardless of where you are in the scale. 5 OCV has the same chance of hitting 3 DCV as 105 OCV has of hitting 103 DCV. And 35 points of effect of Mind Control has the same effect against a 10 EGO as 135 points of effect of Mind Control has against a 110 EGO. We've been over this already.

 

If you use a house rule that differs from the standard rules, that's certainly your right. My list is about the rules-as-written. It has to be, because I don't know your house rules. A house rule that says 5 OCV vs 3 DCV hits 5/3-1/2 = 2/3 (66.7%) of the time, but 105 OCV hits 103 DCV 105/103-1/2 = 107/206 (51.9%) of the time, uses a relative difference and might work just fine, but it isn't the standard HERO rule, and therefore isn't covered by my list.

 

That is because I'm basing my views on how things should work if the rules are IMO "well made."

That sounds more like B or C. As I've already said, you're welcome to present your case for why you feel the rules should be changed, why the rules as they are are not "well made", or what it would take to make them "well." I happen to like the rules as they are, but that isn't what my list is about. I'm only describing the rules as they are, for better or worse.

 

GURPS 3rd edition ....

...is not what my list is about. Feel free to present your case as to why HERO should be more/less like GURPS if you like.

 

The same explaination could apply to Hero, maybe 10,000 DCV and 10,030 OCV are supposed to be 99.7% the same, IMO they just don't play out that way.

Where in the rulebook does it say that they're supposed to be 99.7% the same? In combat against each other, their more like 99% different. In combat against a third target of less than, say 100 CV, they are pretty close to 100% the same.

 

The key point where we disagree is that I don't beleive that absolute difference has anything to do with contests between characters.

Which contests are you talking about? Give me *one* example within the HERO rules where the relative difference matters in a contes between characters (other than the Entangle breakout example that I gave). The two examples that you've mentioned so far (CV - to hit rolls) and Mental Power Effects vs EGO both use the absolute difference. As does the most basic and common mechanic of Damage-Defenses.

 

Going back to the ant, and the puppy, and the two warriors: the same absolute differences exist in each contest, but in one case, those numbers mean a great deal more.

Which numbers? In this example, you're combining multiple factors, and then ignoring all but one. In a tug-of-war, it's not just strength versus strength. It's strength and traction and grip and wieght versus strength and traction and grip and wieght.

 

Again, in as simple terms as I can think of:

 

Linear progression: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 98 99 100 101

In absolute terms: the first two entries differ by 1, the last two entries differ by 1.

In relative terms: the first two entries differ by 100%, the last to entries differ by 1%.

 

Exponential progression: 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024

In absolute terms: the first two entries differ by 1, the last two entries differ by 512.

In relative terms: the first two entries differ by 100%, the last to entries differ by 100%.

 

And just to be complete,

Geometric Progression: 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 121 144 169

In absolute terms: the first two entries differ by 3, the last two entries differ by 25. (terms n and n+1 will differ by 2n+1)

In relative terms: the first two entries differ by 300%, the last to entries differ by 17.4%.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

For every +2 OCV's you have' date=' you can either hit a target that is half as big (5 pts of [i']Shrinking[/i]) or twice as far away (range mods). This is how I conceive differences in CV's as exponential.

Yes. That's why I listed the Range Modifier as being an exponential scale. I had forgotten to include the Size Modifier (both larger and smaller), but I've added it now. Good catch!

 

But still, it isn't the difference in CVs that is exponential - it's still linear. It's the effect of size and distance on CV (or hit/miss chances) that's exponential.

[Mister E]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Yes. That's why I listed the Range Modifier as being an exponential scale. I had forgotten to include the Size Modifier (both larger and smaller), but I've added it now. Good catch!

 

But still, it isn't the difference in CVs that is exponential - it's still linear. It's the effect of size and distance on CV (or hit/miss chances) that's exponential.

 

Yup and yup. Thanks again for all this sweetness.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

You made a number of important points, but I think the following represents the core of the disagreement.

The same explaination could apply to Hero' date=' maybe 10,000 DCV and 10,030 OCV are supposed to be 99.7% the same, IMO they just don't play out that way.[/quote']

Where in the rulebook does it say that they're supposed to be 99.7% the same? In combat against each other, their more like 99% different.

It does not say that they are supposed to be 99.7% the same in the rule book.

 

However, by saying that there is a linear relationship in terms of CVs, then it would follow that they are very close (99.7%) relative to one another.

 

The linear value of 10,000 is almost exactly the same as the linear value of 10,030. In linear terms, there is only a slight relative difference between these two values (30 units of difference, out of 10,000).

 

Here are some other examples of this relative difference in terms of other linear scales:

 

If you make $10,030 during the same period that I make $10,000, I'd say that our pay rates are almost exactly the same.

 

If you weigh in that 100.3 lbs and I weigh in at 100.0 lbs, I'd say that we have almost exactly the same weight.

 

If you paid $10,030 for your car, and I paid $10,000 for mine, I'd say that our cars cost almost the same amount.

 

If you are 72 inches tall, and I am 71.8 inches tall, I'd say that we are very close in height.

The thing is that I agree with you that, the combat values, as they play out against each other, are more than 99% different. That implies to me that we are not looking at a linear CV scale.

 

That makes me think of something like the Richter scale. A 10,000 rated earthquake would be totally different in power relative to a 10,030 rated quake. (not that you'd actually get such a quake in practice anymore than you'd be likely to get 10,000 OCV)

 

That also applies to lifting in HERO. A STR of 10,030 can lift 64 times as much as a 10,000 STR can lift. The actual relative lift values of these two STR stats are very different, and I wouldn't need anymore than that to tell me that they are not on a linear scale.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Again, in as simple terms as I can think of:

 

Linear progression: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 98 99 100 101

In absolute terms: the first two entries differ by 1, the last two entries differ by 1.

In relative terms: the first two entries differ by 100%, the last to entries differ by 1%.

 

Exponential progression: 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024

In absolute terms: the first two entries differ by 1, the last two entries differ by 512.

In relative terms: the first two entries differ by 100%, the last to entries differ by 100%.

I can agree with what you say above. In fact, I'm not sure why we're actually in disagreement over this issue.

 

So I'll add the following (which is pretty close to what you've said above):

 

On a linear scale, there is a direct relationship between a number on the scale, and what that number actually represents:

 

Here is an example of a linear scale:

0 = 0

1 = 1

2 = 2

3 = 3

50 = 50

99 = 99

 

And this scale is also a linear:

0 = 0

1 = 10

2 = 20

3 = 30

50 = 500

99 = 990

 

On an exponential scale, there is an exponential relationship between a number on the scale, and what that number actually represents.

 

Here is an example of an exponential scale in powers of 2:

0 = 1

1 = 2

2 = 4

3 = 8

4 = 16

 

 

I would say that I can look at values on any scale, and tell if it is linear or exponential fairly simply.

 

I ask myself: is the relative difference between 1 & 2 the same as the relative difference between 3 & 4 ?

 

With an Exponential scale, the relative difference between 1 & 2 on that scale will always be the same as the relative difference between 3 & 4.

 

With a Linear Scale, the relative difference changes at different points on the scale. As you say above: Going from 1 to 2 represents a relative difference of 100%, but going from 3 to 4 only represents a relative difference of 33%

 

Putting this observation to use in the CV question. . . .

 

In Hero, the relative difference between 1 OCV vs 2 DCV is exactly the same as the relative difference between 3 OCV vs 4 DCV. All I have to do is ask which progression that fits.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Wow, with enough mathematics thrown in, even a flame war can resemble rational discourse

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

I can agree with what you say above. In fact' date=' I'm not sure why we're actually in disagreement over this issue.[/quote']

I'm not sure either. It seems to be (from your statements below) that you're confused over the difference between "relative" and "absolute", and which of those is used (primarily) in HERO.

 

I would say that I can look at values on any scale, and tell if it is linear or exponential fairly simply.

Yes. Of course, you do have to look at more than 2 values. Four usually does it (at least for our purposes).

 

To use your format, if

2 = 4

3 = 8

You can't yet tell if it's linear or exponential.

 

And even if

2 = 4

3 = 8

4 = 16

You can't tell if it's geometric or exponential.

 

Which is why just looking at two CVs, 10000 and 10030, doesn't give you the scale.

 

In Hero, the relative difference between 1 OCV vs 2 DCV is exactly the same as the relative difference between 3 OCV vs 4 DCV. All I have to do is ask which progression that fits.

No. It's the *absolute* difference that's the same. And it's the *absolute* difference that matters in HERO.

[Basil]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

::sigh::

Warp9: you started by saying that CV could not be a linear scale because it didn't take into account relative differences (i.e., differences in ratio).

 

When it was pointed out that CV DID act in a linear fashion, you went into enormous detail about how a linear STR stat wouldn't act like HERO's exponential STR stat.

You mean "pointed out" in the following quote?

In linear terms the difference between 1 DCV and 6 OCV is much greater than the difference between 51 DCV and 56 OCV.

No. It's exactly the same. 6 OCV hits 1 DCV on 16 or less. 56 OCV hits 51 DCV on 16 or less. Q.E.D. And 1006 hits 1001 on 16 or less. etc. And you yourself admit that it's the same a few paragraphs later:

But you'll find that the combat difference between 1 DCV and 6 OCV is the same as the difference between 101 DCV and 106 OCV, this speaks of a non-linear relationship

No. That is precisely what a linear relationship is. A difference of 5 at one place in the scale has the same effect as a difference of 5 at another place in the scale. Compare this to a exponential scale: taking a RW example, the Richter scale, which measures the power of earthquakes:

I've already explained how PhilFleischmann was incorrect.

No, that's Phil demonstrating that you are totally incorrect. If you don't understand that, then I guess you never will get it.

 

Phil was correct that' date=' in terms of a linear scale, each point means exactly the same as every other point in linear value. The problem is that, in terms of a contest between characters, having some number of points of difference on a linear scale means nothing. In relative terms, the difference between 1 and 2 on such a scale represents a doubling. The relative difference between 1001 and 1002 is almost nothing; it represents a drop in the bucket.[/quote']

Incorrect. In the only "contest between characters" using OCV/DCV, the absolute diffence determines the chance (to be rolled on dice). The relative difference has not one bloody thing to do with it.

 

"A contest between characters" is not something that exists as a universal. There are specific contests, and without specifying which, you are arguing in a vacuum, without being able to say anything useful because you are not saying anything concrete.

 

I'm sorry, but your repeated use of circular argument, straw man, and red herring has worn thin.

It is always easy to make such accusations; the problem is that I don't think that you can back them up with the facts.

If you don't see it I can only conclude willful blindness to your own statements' errors.

 

Unless you want to address your original point and give some reason for asserting that CV's are exponential, I will not bother replying to any more of your posts on this subject.

It is very simple.

 

Imagine a contest between characters with stats of 10,000 and 10,030

What stats? A contest under which of HERO System's rules? A contest to accomplish/determine what? Without specification, your example is meaningless.

 

If those characters are almost equal' date=' relative to each other (99.7% the same) then it is likely that we are looking at linear scale.[/quote']

Pure garbage. You cannot determine what type of scale is in use from only 2 points.

 

If one character is FAR superior relative to the other one, then it is likely that we are dealing with an exponential scale.

Or two highly disparate characters.

 

Looking at CVs, we can tell that, in a contest between characters, the 10,030 OCV is far superior to the 10,000 DCV. If you put one up against the other, they are not 99.7% the same.

 

Thus I conclude that CVs are based on an exponential scale, where 10,030 OCV is FAR superior, in relative terms, to 10,000 DCV.

My gods, I cannot believe this. This is one of the, if not the most innumerate twaddle I've read in a decade! Mr. 10,030 has the same chance of hitting Mr. 10,000 as Mr. 45 has of hitting Mr. 15. That's simple arithmetic. If you honestly think otherwise then.... Hell, I don't know; I guess you're beyond hope.

 

Frankly, I'm not going to waste my time any further. Say hello to my bozo bin.

 

PLONK.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

In Hero' date=' the relative difference between 1 OCV vs 2 DCV is exactly the same as the relative difference between 3 OCV vs 4 DCV. All I have to do is ask which progression that fits. [/quote']

No. It's the *absolute* difference that's the same. And it's the *absolute* difference that matters in HERO.

Are you talking about the absolute difference in "raw" Combat Value numbers in "game mechanics" terms? Or are you talking about what those numbers actually mean to the characters within the game world?

 

There is a huge difference between those things; it is the difference between working with “post-scaled” numbers and “pre-scaled” numbers.

 

 

Generally speaking, often times in is helpful to convert world values (“world” could be "game-world" or "real world" depending on the situation) to some scale. Once they have been scaled, you can then work with them (this is where the game mechanics comes into play). After that, you can then convert them back to world values.

 

In game mechanics terms, we are working with differences in OCV and DCV, but what does a 1 point gap in CV actually represent within in the game world?

 

Would the characters in the game describe going from 10 CV to 20 CV as a “doubling” of combat effectiveness? Or would they likely describe such an increase as a much greater increase in combat ability?

 

That is where the question of scale comes into the picture.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Are you talking about the absolute difference in "raw" Combat Value numbers in "game mechanics" terms? Or are you talking about what those numbers actually mean to the characters within the game world?

I'm talking in game mechanics terms - that's the only thing relevent to the discussion and the only reason for enumerating the scales. The numbers don't mean *anything at all* "within the game world". Squirrelman, Captain Crowbar, Doctor Impossible have no concept of "OCV" or "pips of STUN and BODY". I am reminded of a player I had decades ago when I used to play (and DM) D&D: whenever I would describe the players coming upon a monster, he would say, "How many hit points does it have?" As if dragons wear signs around their necks that say, "Hello, my name is Vermicelli and I have 86 hit points." Or as if you can go to an "adventurer's supply store" in the village and buy a "hit-point-ometer".

 

There is a huge difference between those things; it is the difference between working with “post-scaled” numbers and “pre-scaled” numbers.

I have no idea what you mean by this statement. It appears to be meaningless.

 

Generally speaking, often times in is helpful to convert world values (“world” could be "game-world" or "real world" depending on the situation) to some scale. Once they have been scaled, you can then work with them (this is where the game mechanics comes into play). After that, you can then convert them back to world values.

Again, this seems to mean nothing. The stats within the HERO System are already "scaled" and don't need to be scaled again. You just use them as they are according to the rules.

 

In game mechanics terms, we are working with differences in OCV and DCV, but what does a 1 point gap in CV actually represent within in the game world?

Within the game word itself, I guess you could say it represents a slight difference in the likelihood of hitting or being hit in combat. But the actual number doesn't mean anything. If a player mentions his CV as part of an in-character monolog, the he isn't role-playing. "Surrender, Mad Jaywalker! I have a base 74% chance to hit you, but you only have a base 50% chance to hit me!"

 

Would the characters in the game describe going from 10 CV to 20 CV as a “doubling” of combat effectiveness? Or would they likely describe such an increase as a much greater increase in combat ability?

Neither. Those quantifications don't exist in the characters' perceptions. They might say, "He moves around so much, it's hard to hit him," or "I've never seen anyone move so fast," or "I can't believe he was able to duck my eyebeam!" They should never say, "Damn! I can only hit this guy on a 3, and only because 3 is considered an automatic hit! I'd better try Spreading, or maybe use an Area Effect Attack."

 

That is where the question of scale comes into the picture.

I'd say that's where basic role-playing comes into the picture.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Are you talking about the absolute difference in "raw" Combat Value numbers in "game mechanics" terms? Or are you talking about what those numbers actually mean to the characters within the game world?

I'm talking in game mechanics terms - that's the only thing relevent to the discussion and the only reason for enumerating the scales. The numbers don't mean *anything at all* "within the game world". Squirrelman, Captain Crowbar, Doctor Impossible have no concept of "OCV" or "pips of STUN and BODY". I am reminded of a player I had decades ago when I used to play (and DM) D&D: whenever I would describe the players coming upon a monster, he would say, "How many hit points does it have?" As if dragons wear signs around their necks that say, "Hello, my name is Vermicelli and I have 86 hit points." Or as if you can go to an "adventurer's supply store" in the village and buy a "hit-point-ometer".

I'm not asking you what the characters think of the points values, I'm asking you what impact those points have on their world.

 

Example:

 

Game Mechanic terms: increasing +10 points of STR, and thus going from 50 STR to 60 STR.

 

Game World terms (From the Character's POV): Going from lifting 25 tons to lifting 100 tons. That is what the game mechanics numbers mean from the character's point of view.

 

You may not believe it, but, even though the characters are not aware of the actual game mechanic point values, those values *DO* have an impact on the game world.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

I guess I didn't understand what you meant. I'm still not sure I do, but here goes:

 

Game Mechanic terms: increasing +10 points of STR' date=' and thus going from 50 STR to 60 STR.[/quote']

I don't see any game mechanic terms there, just arithmetic: 50 STR + 10 STR = 60 STR doesn't tell you anything at all about game mechanics.

 

Game World terms (From the Character's POV): Going from lifting 25 tons to lifting 100 tons. That is what the game mechanics numbers mean from the character's point of view.

Yes, because the weight of objects is easily measurable in the game world. If a character increases STR, he can say, fully in-character, "Wow! Look how much weight I can lift now! I used to be able to lift 25 tons, but now I can lift 100 tons."

 

However, there is no such measurement with regard to CV, or to many other game-mechanics rules within the game world. The character isn't going to say, "I used to punch for 10d6, but now I punch for 12d6!" See also, my example from my previous post about "I will hit you 74% of the time!"

 

You may not believe it, but, even though the characters are not aware of the actual game mechanic point values, those values *DO* have an impact on the game world.

In that sense, yes, but only a few of them do. Lifting capacity obviously does, and movement speed. That's about it. Maybe certain levels of defense ("I can bounce bullets up to ___-caliber."), but even that starts to break down, which you can see from the many discussions there have been on supers vs. tanks, etc.

 

So, to put it in your terms, with CV:

Game Mechanic terms: increasing +1 CV, and thus going from 3 OCV and DCV to 4 OCV and DCV. (Again, this isn't really game mechanics, just arithmetic, but I'm keeping it in the terms you used.)

 

Game World terms (From the Character's POV): Hitting the target a little more often, being hit a little less often. That is what the game mechanics numbers mean from the character's point of view.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Yes, because the weight of objects is easily measurable in the game world. If a character increases STR, he can say, fully in-character, "Wow! Look how much weight I can lift now! I used to be able to lift 25 tons, but now I can lift 100 tons."

 

However, there is no such measurement with regard to CV, or to many other game-mechanics rules within the game world. The character isn't going to say, "I used to punch for 10d6, but now I punch for 12d6!" See also, my example from my previous post about "I will hit you 74% of the time!"

I'm not saying that it would be easy, but, with enough experimentation/testing, my character could find out that he is able to hit some target 74% of the time.

 

 

 

You may not believe it' date=' but, [i']even though the characters are not aware of the actual game mechanic point values[/i], those values *DO* have an impact on the game world.

In that sense, yes, but only a few of them do. Lifting capacity obviously does, and movement speed. That's about it. Maybe certain levels of defense ("I can bounce bullets up to ___-caliber."), but even that starts to break down, which you can see from the many discussions there have been on supers vs. tanks, etc.

I would say that the game mechanic values have an impact on the game world--and more than just a few of them.

 

Lifting and movement speed are just easier for the characters to see, but, with enough of the right tests, the impacts of those other values should make themselves felt.

 

 

So, to put it in your terms, with CV:

Game Mechanic terms: increasing +1 CV, and thus going from 3 OCV and DCV to 4 OCV and DCV. (Again, this isn't really game mechanics, just arithmetic, but I'm keeping it in the terms you used.)

 

Game World terms (From the Character's POV): Hitting the target a little more often, being hit a little less often. That is what the game mechanics numbers mean from the character's point of view.

So how about going from 6 OCV to 12 OCV? (lets also assume that we are dealing with a 6 DCV target)

 

What would that change in OCV mean in Game World terms?

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I'd like to address something from a different post. . . .

 

 

There is a huge difference between those things; it is the difference between working with “post-scaled” numbers and “pre-scaled” numbers.

I have no idea what you mean by this statement. It appears to be meaningless.

Well, in some sense, all numbers are in one scale or another, so perhaps I should have put it a bit differently.

 

However, what I meant is as follows:

 

If a player comes to me and says: "I'd like to have a character who can lift 100,000 kg." That is what I would call "pre-scaled data." It is obviously in a metric scale, but it is not yet in terms that the game mechanics use.

 

I explain to this player that: "100,000 kg lift (100 metric tons) = 60 STR in game terms," he then writes down that 60 STR on his character sheet. That 60 STR is "post-scaled data," it represents a number which has been translated into game mechanics terms.

 

If somebody hits that 60 STR character with a STR drain, and he drops to 50 STR, that value is still what I would define as "post scaled data." But that 10 point STR drop means nothing to the characters: they don't know what a 50 STR means.

 

In order to put this STR drop in terms which are understandable to the characters we must "un-scale" it. In game world terms, a 50 STR means a lift capacity of 25,000 kg (25 metric tons). That "un-scaled" 25,000kg lift is what I would call "pre-scaled data"

 

I don't know if that is clear or not. If it is not clear then I will try to explain some more.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

I'm not saying that it would be easy, but, with enough experimentation/testing, my character could find out that he is able to hit some target 74% of the time.

 

I would say that the game mechanic values have an impact on the game world--and more than just a few of them.

 

Lifting and movement speed are just easier for the characters to see, but, with enough of the right tests, the impacts of those other values should make themselves felt.

OK. So *theoretically* someone could perform a series of tests (which no one ever has or ever will, either in the game world, or the real world) under certain controlled conditions (which pretty much invalidate the test for combat conditions) and quantify the likelihood of hitting a target. The point of which would be what? With STR lifting capacity, it's pretty easy to measure, in the game world and in the real world: weigh the object, can you lift it or not. CV on the other hand is only one part of the equation. The target has a DCV which must be factored in, and then you have Range Mod, Size Mod, CSLs (on both sides), Maneuver bonuses and penalties (on both sides), Set, Brace, Environmental modifiers, etc.

 

So how about going from 6 OCV to 12 OCV? (lets also assume that we are dealing with a 6 DCV target)

 

What would that change in OCV mean in Game World terms?

I'm not sure it will help, but here goes:

Hitting the target a lot more often, being hit a lot less often (assuming an opponent with a reasonably close CV). That is what the game mechanics numbers mean from the character's point of view.

 

Well, in some sense, all numbers are in one scale or another, so perhaps I should have put it a bit differently.

OK. I understand what you mean now, but I still don't see the point. What would you call the "pre-scaled numbers" that correspond to the "post-scaled" CV? I don't think there are any. There's only, "Character A is a little bit better shot than character B," or "Character A is a lot better shot than character B," or "Character A blows character B out of the water in terms of combat accuracy." But even in these cases, it depends on the circumstances of the combat. 6 OCV vs 12 OCV makes a big difference against a 9 DCV, but it makes no difference against a 0 DCV or a 20 DCV or more.

 

In short, what's your point?

[Reality Czech]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

OK. So *theoretically* someone could perform a series of tests (which no one ever has or ever will' date=' either in the game world, or the real world) under certain controlled conditions (which pretty much invalidate the test for combat conditions) and quantify the likelihood of hitting a target. The point of which would be what? With STR lifting capacity, it's pretty easy to measure, in the game world and in the real world: weigh the object, can you lift it or not. CV on the other hand is only one part of the equation. The target has a DCV which must be factored in, and then you have Range Mod, Size Mod, CSLs (on both sides), Maneuver bonuses and penalties (on both sides), Set, Brace, Environmental modifiers, etc.[/quote']

 

Tests of this nature are conducted in the real world, under combat conditions. In the military we have a term called "force ratios" which are a numerical expression of how much a given vehicle, weapon, or unit can be expected to stand up against in an attack, defense, meeting engagement (both sides attacking at once).

This numerical value (Let's just call it OCV/DCV for convienence, shall we?) is determined through historical data, trend analysis, and involves the analysis of a number of factors significantly more complex that HEROES combat.

Force Ratios are never an exact science (It's combat) but they give combat leaders a good, solid guideline for how much firepower needs to be allocated to a specific portion of the battlefield to expect tactical, operational, or strategic success.

These values are taught to every combat leader in some level of detail, with an infantry Sergeant in charge of 6 guys given a simple "3 to 1 odds if you're going to attack" rule up to huge amounts of tables, military theory, and environmental and situational considerations taught to commanders of large units and tactical subject matter experts like intelligence analysts.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

OK. So *theoretically* someone could perform a series of tests (which no one ever has or ever will, either in the game world, or the real world) under certain controlled conditions (which pretty much invalidate the test for combat conditions) and quantify the likelihood of hitting a target. The point of which would be what? With STR lifting capacity, it's pretty easy to measure, in the game world and in the real world: weigh the object, can you lift it or not. CV on the other hand is only one part of the equation. The target has a DCV which must be factored in, and then you have Range Mod, Size Mod, CSLs (on both sides), Maneuver bonuses and penalties (on both sides), Set, Brace, Environmental modifiers, etc.

If I was the leader of a team of superheroes, I might want to have a handle on the exact offensive abilities of my team. And, if I had some kind of ultra-high tech "danger-room" to work with, it should be possible to control conditions, and run all sorts of test in regard to these matters. For OCV, I could find out each character's chance to hit a range of targets, and do it under controlled conditions to factor out such things as range mod, size mod, environmental modifiers, etc. . . .

 

With the right type of set-up, I believe that it should be possible to get a pretty good handle on each character's offensive and defensive abilities.

 

 

I'm not sure it will help, but here goes:

Hitting the target a lot more often, being hit a lot less often (assuming an opponent with a reasonably close CV). That is what the game mechanics numbers mean from the character's point of view.

I was trying to go for the concept that there is IMO a major difference between a 6 OCV, and a 12 OCV.

 

 

 

OK. I understand what you mean now, but I still don't see the point. What would you call the "pre-scaled numbers" that correspond to the "post-scaled" CV? I don't think there are any. There's only, "Character A is a little bit better shot than character B," or "Character A is a lot better shot than character B," or "Character A blows character B out of the water in terms of combat accuracy." But even in these cases, it depends on the circumstances of the combat. 6 OCV vs 12 OCV makes a big difference against a 9 DCV, but it makes no difference against a 0 DCV or a 20 DCV or more.

 

In short, what's your point?

I do have some ideas about the pre-scaled numbers in terms of CV; however, I'd like to give the matter a bit more thought before I make any specific comments in that area.

 

 

In any case, I assumed that you were probably refering to "post-scaled" numbers in terms of CV, but I wanted to be sure.

 

I also wanted to make the point that there is a difference between the values, in terms of game mechanics, and the impact that is felt in the game world from the perspective on the characters.

 

Looking at some other "post scaled data" for a moment. . . .

 

 

Imagine a 10 point gap in Hero lifting STR (say, for example, the gap between 10 lift STR and 20 lift STR, or the gap between 30 lift STR and 40 lift STR). Would that 10 point gap be an absolute difference or a relative difference?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

If I was the leader of a team of superheroes' date=' I might want to have a handle on the exact offensive abilities of my team. . . . . With the right type of set-up, I believe that it should be possible to get a pretty good handle on each character's offensive and defensive abilities.[/quote']

OK. Fine. The point of which is what?

 

I was trying to go for the concept that there is IMO a major difference between a 6 OCV, and a 12 OCV.

I'm not disagreeing with you here. I can only respond to what you ask. If you meant something other that what you asked, it's not my fault. I used the same terms, as you used them, of "game mechanic terms and game world terms". If your point this whole time has been to say nothing more than that there's a big difference between 6 OCV and 12 OCV, and only a small difference between 6 OCV and 7 OCV, then we've both been wasting our time with this discussion.

 

I do have some ideas about the pre-scaled numbers in terms of CV; however, I'd like to give the matter a bit more thought before I make any specific comments in that area.

And while you're at it, you might want to give some thought to what your point is. Every time I think I've got it, you say something completely different. It's getting harder for me to care. I assume your point has something to do with the "Master List of Scales in HERO" that I posted, and that you think there are one or more errors in it.

 

In any case, I assumed that you were probably refering to "post-scaled" numbers in terms of CV, but I wanted to be sure.

Yes. To be precise, I was refering solely to the rules of the HERO system. I couldn't have been refering to "pre-scaled" numbers that correspond to the "post-scaled" CV, because there aren't any such numbers.

 

I also wanted to make the point that there is a difference between the values, in terms of game mechanics, and the impact that is felt in the game world from the perspective on the characters.

Great! You've made your point. It has nothing to do with the subject, but at least we all agree on it.

 

Looking at some other "post scaled data" for a moment. . . .

 

Imagine a 10 point gap in Hero lifting STR (say, for example, the gap between 10 lift STR and 20 lift STR, or the gap between 30 lift STR and 40 lift STR). Would that 10 point gap be an absolute difference or a relative difference?

If you describe it in terms of "10-point gap" that would be an absolute difference - in terms of game-mechanics rules. The only discinction between "absolute" and "relative" differences is in how one chooses to quantify them. "Ten more points spent" is an absolute difference. "One-and-a-half times as many points spent" is a relative difference. Is this brain surgery?

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

OK. Fine. The point of which is what?

The point is that, although the characters don't actually know about the game mechanics directly, the game mechanics have a measurable impact on the game world.

 

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with you here. I can only respond to what you ask. If you meant something other that what you asked, it's not my fault. I used the same terms, as you used them, of "game mechanic terms and game world terms". If your point this whole time has been to say nothing more than that there's a big difference between 6 OCV and 12 OCV, and only a small difference between 6 OCV and 7 OCV, then we've both been wasting our time with this discussion.

 

And while you're at it, you might want to give some thought to what your point is. Every time I think I've got it, you say something completely different. It's getting harder for me to care. I assume your point has something to do with the "Master List of Scales in HERO" that I posted, and that you think there are one or more errors in it.

My overall point has been the same one all along, which is that: there is not a linear relationship between CV shifts (game mechanics terms) ans shifts in game world combat ability.

 

I'm just trying to break it down into much smaller bits, so that it is possible to examine the specific steps that I took to get to that perspective. That way it should be possible to find specifically where we disagree on this matter.

 

 

Yes. To be precise, I was refering solely to the rules of the HERO system. I couldn't have been refering to "pre-scaled" numbers that correspond to the "post-scaled" CV, because there aren't any such numbers.

Again, in game world terms, you'd have to do some test to figure out each character's combat abilities. . . . but I'd say that the "pre-scaled" numbers would be measured in percentages relative to a given target.

 

Pre-scaled: Under a given set of conditions: Character A has a 50% chance to hit Target B

 

Post-scaled: Under a given set of conditions: Character A has 6 OCV and Target B has 6 DCV.

 

Pre-scaled: Under those same conditions: Character C has a 16% chance to hit Target B

 

Post-scaled: Character C has 3 OCV and Target B has 6 DCV.

 

 

 

 

If you describe it in terms of "10-point gap" that would be an absolute difference - in terms of game-mechanics rules. The only discinction between "absolute" and "relative" differences is in how one chooses to quantify them. "Ten more points spent" is an absolute difference. "One-and-a-half times as many points spent" is a relative difference. Is this brain surgery?

OK, lets take a look at this absolute difference.

 

Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B. So, how many kg does this absolute difference in lifting ability equate to?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

The point is that' date=' although the characters don't actually know about the game mechanics directly, the game mechanics have a measurable impact on the game world.[/quote']

Agreed. Irrelevent but true.

 

My overall point has been the same one all along, which is that: there is not a linear relationship between CV shifts (game mechanics terms) ans shifts in game world combat ability.

That's because there is no quantiative game world scale to compare it to. The linear cost of COM also does not have a linear relationship to "game world" comeliness. I'm only talking about the rules of the game. Not role-playing considerations, plot points, or mileu flavor.

 

I'm just trying to break it down into much smaller bits, so that it is possible to examine the specific steps that I took to get to that perspective. That way it should be possible to find specifically where we disagree on this matter.

I don't see any such "bits" existing in the "game world." We can't disagree, as it has nothing to do with anything I said.

 

Again, in game world terms, you'd have to do some test to figure out each character's combat abilities. . . . but I'd say that the "pre-scaled" numbers would be measured in percentages relative to a given target.

I suppose, but they'd also have to be measured relative to every other target as well, and under each possible set of conditions, in order to correspond to the game mechanic of CV.

 

Pre-scaled: Under a given set of conditions: Character A has a 50% chance to hit Target B

 

Post-scaled: Under a given set of conditions: Character A has 6 OCV and Target B has 6 DCV.

 

Pre-scaled: Under those same conditions: Character C has a 16% chance to hit Target B

 

Post-scaled: Character C has 3 OCV and Target B has 6 DCV.

OK, except that you've left out all of the conditions from the post-scaled descriptions, which is fine for the sake of simplicity, but they are a significant factor in the rules. In this instance, there is an unstated condition that reduces the roll needed by 1, either a -1 to the attacker or a +1 to the target.

 

Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B. So, how many kg does this absolute difference in lifting ability equate to?

What is the point of this particular question? Do you not know the answer to this question? Are you being deliberately obtuse? Do you not understand the meaning of the words "absolute" and "relative"?

 

Joe can lift 123 kg. Jim can lift 135 kg. Absolute difference: 12 kg. Relative difference: a tad less than 10%.

Tim and Tom are characters in a RPG. Tim has a 28 DMA score. Tom has a 36 DMA score. Absolute difference: 8 DMA "pips". Relative difference: 2/7, or 28.57%.

If in this particular RPG, characters start with a default DMA score of 20, and pay 2 points for each point they raise their DMA score, then the abolute difference in points paid is 16, and the relative difference is 100% - Toom paid twice as much.

If the game rules provide a exponential result for increasing one's DMA score, to actually performing the DMA-based ability, such that each point of DMA doubles the "DMA-units" of ability, and the base of 20 DMA provides 100 "DMA-units" then the absolute difference in DMA-based ability between Tim and Tom is 6,528,000 "DMA-units" and the relative difference is that Tom has 256 times the DMA-based ability as Tim.

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

If you describe it in terms of "10-point gap" that would be an absolute difference - in terms of game-mechanics rules.

OK, lets take a look at this absolute difference.

 

Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B. So, how many kg does this absolute difference in lifting ability equate to?

What is the point of this particular question? Do you not know the answer to this question? Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I really do not know the answer to that question.

 

If someone were to say to me: “In Hero Game System Terms, Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B---what does that difference mean, when measured in kg?” That is not a question that I could answer.

 

If I was given only a 10 point difference in Lifting STR between characters, I would not be able to answer anything about a difference in kg lift.

 

To me, and perhaps I am obtuse, a 10 point difference in (Hero System) lifting STR means that one character has 4 times the lifting ability of the other character. Which sounds, at least to me, like a relative difference in ability.

 

However, you say that the 10 point gap represents an absolute difference. . . .

 

So I am asking you that question again:

 

“In Hero Game System Terms, Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B—what does that difference mean, when measured in kg?”

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

If someone were to say to me: “In Hero Game System Terms' date=' [b']Character A[/b] has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B---what does that difference mean, when measured in kg?” That is not a question that I could answer.

Not even by saying, "It depends on the specific values of STR"?

 

If I was given only a 10 point difference in Lifting STR between characters, I would not be able to answer anything about a difference in kg lift.

And then you prove yourself wrong in the next sentence:

 

To me, and perhaps I am obtuse, a 10 point difference in (Hero System) lifting STR means that one character has 4 times the lifting ability of the other character.

See? You *can* answer something about the difference in kg lift. I knew you could!

 

Which sounds, at least to me, like a relative difference in ability.

 

However, you say that the 10 point gap represents an absolute difference. . . .

Yes.

10 points is an absolute difference.

Twice as many points is a relative difference.

300 kg more is an absolute difference.

Four times the weight is a relative difference.

 

Pop Quiz Time!

 

For each of the following statements, determine whether the difference being described is Absolute, Relative, or Neither:

 

1. The home team won the game by one point!

2. My landlord raised my rent by two hundred dollars.

3. Three times as many people die in swimming pool accidents as die of AIDS.

4. USA took the gold medal. Japan took the silver.

5. I got a 5% raise in salary.

6. Thanks to my raise, I'm getting an additional $60 a week.

7. Seven-of-Nine is way hotter than Deanna Troy.

8. Muscle Man can lift eight times as much as Captain Power.

9. Super Commando is a slightly more skilled combattant than Wonder Warrior.

10. If you put a -1/4 limitation on a power, you pay one-fifth fewer points.

11. My DMA this year has increased over last year.

12. That attack exceeded my defence by 12, so I take 12 points of STUN.

 

Click below for the answers.

 

1. Absolute

2. Absolute

3. Relative

4. Neither

5. Relative

6. Absolute

7. Neither

8. Relative

9. Neither

10. Relative

11. Neither

12. Absolute

 

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

If I was given only a 10 point difference in Lifting STR between characters, I would not be able to answer anything about a difference in kg lift.

And then you prove yourself wrong in the next sentence:

 

To me, and perhaps I am obtuse, a 10 point difference in (Hero System) lifting STR means that one character has 4 times the lifting ability of the other character.

See? You *can* answer something about the difference in kg lift. I knew you could!

Nope. That doesn't narrow down the difference, in terms of the actual kg lift, at all. The difference in kg lift ability could still be anything. All I've said is A_lift = 4 X B_lift.

 

Which sounds, at least to me, like a relative difference in ability.

 

However, you say that the 10 point gap represents an absolute difference. . . .

Yes.

10 points is an absolute difference.

Twice as many points is a relative difference.

300 kg more is an absolute difference.

Four times the weight is a relative difference.

The problem is that "+10 Hero Lift STR points" is the same thing as "being able to lift 4 times as much."

 

Therefore, if one is a relative difference, then so is the other one.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

Nope. That doesn't narrow down the difference' date=' in terms of the actual kg lift, at all. The difference in kg lift ability could still be anything. All I've said is [b']A_lift[/b] = 4 X B_lift.

But that does tell you quite a bit, though. You said you "couldn't answer anything" about it, when in fact you can. Have you ever taken an algebra class? Ever dealt with expressions containing unknown variables, like "4x"?

 

The problem is that "+10 Hero Lift STR points" is the same thing as "being able to lift 4 times as much."

 

Therefore, if one is a relative difference, then so is the other one.

So how'd you do on the quiz? Did you put the same answer for numbers 5 & 6? They both describe the same thing. Why would you assume that they therefore must be both relative or both absolute? Phenomena can be quantified in various ways. Two different quantifications of the same phenomenon need not be both relative or both absolute. Nor do they even need to be on the same scale.

 

In this case, 10 is an absolute number of points. As 300 kg or 600 kg or 1200 kg are absolute amounts of weight. "4 times as much weight" would be a relative description of a difference in weight. This is why I included the following in my last post:

 

"10 points is an absolute difference.

Twice as many points is a relative difference.

300 kg more is an absolute difference.

Four times the weight is a relative difference."

 

Read it again, carefully. Got it? This isn't rocket science.

 

Have you just been jerking my chain this whole time? Is this an early April Fools joke?

[Warp9]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

But that does tell you quite a bit, though. You said you "couldn't answer anything" about it, when in fact you can. Have you ever taken an algebra class? Ever dealt with expressions containing unknown variables, like "4x"?

In case you didn't notice, A_lift = 4 X B_lift *IS* an expression containing unknown variables. But, if it would make you happier, we could say:

 

y = 4x

or

y/4 = x

 

The problem is that just knowing that relationship tells you nothing specific about y unless you happen to know what x is. And it tells you nothing specific about x unless you happen to know what y is.

 

So how'd you do on the quiz? Did you put the same answer for numbers 5 & 6? They both describe the same thing.

 

5. I got a 5% raise in salary.

6. Thanks to my raise, I'm getting an additional $60 a week.

They only happen to describe the same thing at one given point---they are not really equal statements.

 

It is possible to get 5% raise in salary without getting an additional $60 a week. It depends on what your actual current salary is.

 

+10 Hero lifting STR and X 4 lifting ability are always the same thing.

 

 

 

Why would you assume that they therefore must be both relative or both absolute? Phenomena can be quantified in various ways. Two different quantifications of the same phenomenon need not be both relative or both absolute. Nor do they even need to be on the same scale.

 

In this case, 10 is an absolute number of points. As 300 kg or 600 kg or 1200 kg are absolute amounts of weight. "4 times as much weight" would be a relative description of a difference in weight. This is why I included the following in my last post:

 

"10 points is an absolute difference.

Twice as many points is a relative difference.

300 kg more is an absolute difference.

Four times the weight is a relative difference."

 

Read it again, carefully. Got it? This isn't rocket science.

Nope, I haven't "got it" yet.

 

You mention that "300 kg more is an absolute difference" I assume that you mean something like "700 kg is 300 kg more than 400 kg."

 

Or maybe "30 apples is 10 apples more than 20 apples."

 

And when you posted: "10 points is an absolute difference," you mean something like:

 

30 Hero Lifting STR is 10 Hero Lifting STR more than 20 Hero Lifting STR.

 

The problem is that the difference in the "10 points Hero Lifting STR example" is not the same as the "kg example," or the "apples example. "

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO

 

First, you didn't know the difference between linear and exponential.

Then, you didn't know the difference between absolute and relative.

Now, you don't know the difference between "not knowing anything," "knowing something," and "knowing everything."

 

What conclusion am I to draw from this?

 

They only happen to describe the same thing at one given point---they are not really equal statements.

So what? Let's say we are at that one point. Does that mean that they suddenly become both relative or both absolute?

 

+10 Hero lifting STR and X 4 lifting ability are always the same thing.

Yes. See post #1. Lifting capacity has an exponential relationship to points of STR. That's the way exponential scales work.

 

Nope, I haven't "got it" yet.

Are you getting closer at least? Should I keep trying?

 

The problem is that the difference in the "10 points Hero Lifting STR example" is not the same as the "kg example," or the "apples example. "

Well, I'm glad to see you at least know the difference between apples, kilograms, and character points.