PhilFleischmann Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 I don't delude myself into thinking that this will end all debate on the subject, but just for reference and comparison purposes, here are all the scales used in HERO that I could find or think of. I'm sure there's a few that I've left out. Just in case anyone needs the definitions: Linear: 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... Geometric: 1 4 9 16 25 36 ... Exponential: 1 2 4 8 32 64 ... Constant: 1 - Just a single value and that's it. Comparative: Low Middle High Higher - no mathematical meaning exists in this scale. [u]Characteristics[/u] Cost of all of them (14 different ones) Linear Effect on Characteristic Rolls Linear STR Effect on HtH damage Linear Effect on Figured Chars (PD, REC, STUN) Linear Effect on Lifting Capacity Exponential Effect on Throwing Distance Linear Effect on Leaping Linear Effect on STR vs. STR rolls Linear DEX Effect on CV Linear Effect on timing of actions within a phase Linear Effect on Figured Characteristics (SPD) Linear Effect on Agility Skill Rolls Linear CON Effect on preventing Stunning Linear Effect on Figured Chars (ED, REC, END, STUN) Linear BODY Effect vs. BODY damage (death) Linear Effect on Figured Characteristics (STUN) Linear INT Effect on Intellect Skill Rolls Linear Effect on Perception Rolls Linear EGO Effect on ECV Linear Effect vs. Mental Attacks Linear Effect on Ego Skill Rolls Linear PRE Effect on Presence Attacks Linear Effect vs. Presence Attacks Linear Effect on Interaction Skill Rolls Linear COM Appearance Comparative PD Effect vs. Physical damage Linear ED Effect vs. Energy damage Linear SPD Number of actions per Turn Linear REC Recovery of END Linear Recovery of STUN Linear Recovery of BODY Linear Effect on Long-Term END Linear END How it is spent normally Linear How it is spent in Pushing Linear STUN Effect vs. STUN damage (knockout) Linear How it is spent as END Linear [u]Skills[/u] Cost of all Agility Skills Linear Cost of all Background Skills (except Langs) Linear Cost of all Ego Skills Linear Cost of all Intellect Skills Linear Cost of all Interaction Skills Linear Effect on Skill vs. Skill contests Linear Taking extra time (Levels on the Time Chart) Exponential Power Skill Linear Cramming (number of skills crammed) Linear Add'l categories (Animal Handling, Survival, etc.) Constant Skill Levels Cost Linear Effect on Skill Rolls Linear Effect on Attack Rolls (Overall Levels Only) Linear Combat Skill Levels Effect on Attack Rolls Linear Increased Damage Classes (Heroic) Linear Increased BODY or STUN (Superheroic) Linear Penalty Skill Levels Effect vs. Penalties Linear Autofire Skills All Constant Defense Maneuver All levels Constant Languages Any Constant Martial Arts Individual Maneuvers Constant Maneuver Bonuses, elements built (OCV, DCV, DC) Linear Additional Damage Classes Linear Transport Familiarity Constant Two-Weapon Fighting Constant Weapon Familiarity Categories Constant Skill Enhancers Cost Constant Effect on the cost savings of Skills Linear [u]Perquisites[/u] Cost of most Perks Constant Base Linear Follower Linear Vehicle Linear Cost of Additional Bases, Followers, and Vehicles Exponential [u]Powers[/u] END Cost of all Powers that cost END Linear Adjustment Powers Cost Linear Effect Linear Maximum Effect & Increased Maximum Linear Fade Rate Linear Increased Fade Rate Advantage Exponential Attack Powers Cost Linear Effect/Damage done Linear Defense Powers Cost of all of them except Damage Reduction Linear Cost of Damage Reduction Constant Effect of all of them Linear Add'l applicability of Missile Deflection/Reflection Constant Movement Powers Cost of all except FTL and EDM Linear Increased Non-Combat Movement Exponential Mega-Movement Exponential Increased Mass for EDM and Teleport Exponential Some Self-Only Powers (Desol, Extra Limbs, Invis, Shape Shift) Constant One-for-Five Powers (Duplication, Multiform, Summon) Base cost Linear Additional duplicates/forms/summoned beings Exponential Altered Duplicates Linear Change Environment Area covered Exponential Combat effects Linear Long-Lasting effect (levels on the Time Chart) Exponential Clairsentience Basic abilities Constant Default Range Linear Additional Range Exponential Clinging Strength of clinging, Cost and Effect Linear Darkness Area covered Geometric Density Increase Mass increase Exponential STR gained Linear PD gained Linear ED gained Linear Knockback reduced Linear END Reserve Endurance (END) Linear Recovery (REC) Linear Enhanced Senses Detect Constant Additional classes for Detect Linear Enhanced Perception Linear Microscopic Exponential Rapid Exponential Telescopic Linear All other Adders Constant Faster Than Light Travel Exponential Find Weakness Basic ability and applicability Constant Bonus to roll Linear Growth Size increase Exponential Mass increase Exponential STR gained Linear BODY gained Linear STUN gained Linear Knockback reduction Linear DCV penalty Linear PER roll bonus Linear Reach gained Exponential Images Senses Affected Constant PER roll penalty Linear Size Exponential Life Support Most aspects Constant Extended Breathing, Eating, Sleeping, Longevity Exponential Luck Number of dice Linear Probable luck points rolled Linear Mind Link Number of simultaneous minds linked to Exponential Every other aspect Constant Mind Scan Number of dice rolled Linear Effect vs. Target’s EGO Linear Penalty for number of minds scanned Exponential Shrinking Size decrease Exponential Mass decrease Exponential PER Roll penalty Linear DCV Bonus Linear Knockback increase Linear Stretching Combat distance Linear Increased Non-combat multiple Exponential Telepathy Dice rolled Linear Effect vs. EGO Linear [u]Advantages[/u] Most of them Constant Cost in relation to the base cost of the Power Linear Area of Effect Radius Geometric Cone Geometric Line Linear Any Area Linear Increased Area Exponential Armor Piercing Effect vs. defenses Linear Effect of multiple levels vs. levels of Hardened Linear Autofire Maximum number of shots Exponential Cumulative Maximum accumulated effect Exponential Delayed Effect Maximum number of powers in use Exponential Difficult to Dispel Increased effective Active Points Exponential Explosion Area affected Geometric Slower fall-off Linear Area affected by slower fall-off Geometric MegaScale Exponential Range Advantages Increased Maximum Range Exponential Others Constant Usable On Others Most aspects Constant Increased Targets/Mass Exponential Variable Advantage Relative to cost of specific Adv.(s) Linear [u]Limitations[/u] Most of them Constant Savings in relation to base cost of the Power Linear Charges Base number Exponential Clips Exponential Continuing (steps on the Time Chart) Exponential Increased Recovery Time (steps on Time Chart) Exponential Increased Endurance Cost Linear Extra Time Steps on the Time Chart Exponential Gradual Effect Steps on the Time Chart Exponential Reduced by Range Distance relative to reduced effect Exponential Reduced Penetration Effect on BODY damage (and Knockback) Linear Requires a Skill Roll Active Point Penalty to Skill Roll Linear Levels of Luck required Linear Side Effects Active points of side effect relative to power Linear Limitation value for Active points of Side Effect Linear Variable Limitations Relative to specific Limitations chosen Linear [u]Frameworks[/u] All aspects of all frameworks Linear [u]Disadvantages[/u] Almost all aspects of almost all of them Constant Dependence Damage taken Linear Time before onset of damage (Time Chart) Exponential Susceptibility Damage taken Linear Time before onset of damage (Time Chart) Exponential Unluck Number of dice Linear Probable unluck points rolled Linear Vulnerability Effect relative to normal effect Linear [u]Combat Effects and Other Considerations Separate from the Characters Themselves[/u] Range Modifier Exponential Size Modifiers Exponential Cumulative Penalties for Sweep Linear Cumulative Penalties for Rapid Fire Linear Cumulative Penalties for Multiple Move-By/Grab-By Linear Most Maneuver Modifiers (Set, Brace, Dodge, etc.) Constant Halved DCV Modifiers Linear Dive for Cover DEX Roll penalty per Inch moved Linear Spreading Reduced DC per OCV increase Linear Reduced DC per Hex covered Linear Pulling a Punch OCV Penalty for DC Linear Effect on BODY damage Linear Roll With a Punch Effect on damage Linear Multiple Attacker Bonus Linear Velocity-Based DCV Exponential Damage Counting STUN and BODY Linear Applying Damage to Defenses Linear Recovering from Damage Linear Recovery levels based on negative STUN Linear Point of death based on negative BODY Linear Hit Locations To hit modifiers Constant STUN and BODY multipliers Linear Bleeding Additional damage Linear Knockback Distance Linear Damage Linear [u]Environmental Effects[/u] Falling Short falls damage/distance Linear Long falls damage/time Linear Optional Velocity Damage, Velocity Factor Exponential Temperature Levels Comparative Effect on characters Linear Wall BODY based on thickness Exponential Object BODY guidelines based on mass Exponential [u]Equipment[/u] Automaton Powers All of them Constant Computers All characteristics and skills Linear Number of Programs relative to INT Linear Vehicles Size Exponential Carrying capacity Exponential Other Characteristics Linear Movement Linear Bases Size Exponential Other Characteristics Linear Partial Coverage Lim. (total size covered) Exponential Partial Coverage Lim. (relative size covered) Linear Location costs Constant Cost of Computers, Personnel, etc., within a Base or Vehicle Linear Armor weight relative to DEF provided Exponential Extra Equipment +5 Adder Exponential Experience Gaining and spending Experience Points Linear I haven't weighted them on relative importance and I've combined some of them together for simplicity, but as a perhaps somewhat meaningful metric, this is the number of times each scale appears on the above list: Linear 149 Exponential 53 Constant 29 Geometric 5 Comparative 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO I've improved the format of this table to make it easier to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO I have a problem with your list of scales. . . . You say that Combat Skill Levels have a linear Effect on Attack Rolls. But is it really a linear effect? In linear terms the difference between 1 DCV and 6 OCV is much greater than the difference between 51 DCV and 56 OCV. However, in exponential terms, it is more important that there is 5 points of difference involved. If combat values were linear, a 6 OCV is 500% greater than a 1 DCV, but a 106 OCV is only 5% greater than 101 DCV. The 101 VS 106 should be almost the same, but the 1 VS 6 should make a huge difference in combat. But you'll find that the combat difference between 1 DCV and 6 OCV is the same as the difference between 101 DCV and 106 OCV, this speaks of a non-linear relationship. Another example of this issue is where you mention: "EGO's Effect vs. Mental Attacks" If this scale were truely linear then a 3 EGO would be much different than a 13 EGO, whereas a 143 EGO would be much closer to a 153 EGO. However, a gap of 10 points is a gap of 10 points. According to the current rules, the same roll that would give me total control over a 210 EGO, might have no impact at all on a 250 EGO, yet in linear terms these EGOs are very close. However, if EGO is resisitance vs Mental Attacks in exponential then a 250 EGO is much greater than a 210 EGO. For a look at what a linear effect of EGO vs Mental Attacks would look like, take a look at the old rules (pre-4th edition). The old way Resistance worked was: 1 X EGO Minor Effect 2 X EGO Moderate Effect 3 X EGO Major Effect 4 X EGO Extreme Effect In the old days there was a much bigger difference between a 3 EGO and a 13 EGO than there was between a 53 EGO and a 63 EGO. If you rolled a 12 on the Mental Attack dice, you would have no impact at all on the 13 EGO, but you could get a 4 X Effect (Extreme Effect) on the 3 EGO with that same roll. On the other hand the biggest difference you could ever get between the 53 and 63 EGO would be sometime like 2 X EGO vs 1 X EGO (and that is only a limited range of numbers between break points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO I just wanted to applaud the work done in compiling this. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Indeed. Bravo. I think one problem with such a list is that, whilst a mechanic might be ostensibly linear or exponential, the effect is often a hybrid: Example: NND against a living opponent who does not have the right defence is linear in effect: increasing the active cost increases the damage delivered in direct proportion. Normal EB against an opponent who has (as almost everyone does) Energy Defence is not linear, but neither is it exponential in effect: up to a point, increasing the active points will have no effect, then, when (realistic rolled) damage exceeds defence there is a sudden leap from zero, and adding more active points will, with increasing consistency, increase the damage delivered. Up to the critical point there is no relationship, at and just above the critical point the damage delivered is nearly exponential and then it becomes increasingly linear as damage significantly exceeds the critical point. Or maybe it doesn't. I'm a lawyer, what do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO In linear terms the difference between 1 DCV and 6 OCV is much greater than the difference between 51 DCV and 56 OCV. No. It's exactly the same. 6 OCV hits 1 DCV on 16 or less. 56 OCV hits 51 DCV on 16 or less. Q.E.D. And 1006 hits 1001 on 16 or less. etc. And you yourself admit that it's the same a few paragraphs later: But you'll find that the combat difference between 1 DCV and 6 OCV is the same as the difference between 101 DCV and 106 OCV, this speaks of a non-linear relationship No. That is precisely what a linear relationship is. A difference of 5 at one place in the scale has the same effect as a difference of 5 at another place in the scale. Compare this to a exponential scale: taking a RW example, the Richter scale, which measures the power of earthquakes: The difference between a 3.0 earthquake and a 2.0 earthquake is 10 times the difference between a 2.0 and a 1.0, in terms of the total energy gererated. And the difference between a 4.0 and a 3.0 is 10 times the difference between a 3.0 and a 2.0, or 100 times the difference between a 2.0 and a 1.0. If combat values were linear, a 6 OCV is 500% greater than a 1 DCV, but a 106 OCV is only 5% greater than 101 DCV. The 101 VS 106 should be almost the same, but the 1 VS 6 should make a huge difference in combat. That isn't what a linear scale means. First of all, you can't determine a "scale" with only two data points. You can always draw a straight line (linear) between two points, but you could also draw any number of geometric or exponential curves between those same two points. Second, a linear scale doesn't depend upon a subjective relative difference. As we both have said now, the difference between 6 OCV and 1 DCV is the same as the difference between 106 and 101. The 500% and 5% figures don't mean anything useful within the context of the game. Just because 106 and 101 "feel like they're closer together" than 6 and 1, doesn't mean it isn't a linear scale. Another example of this issue is where you mention: "EGO's Effect vs. Mental Attacks" If this scale were truely linear then a 3 EGO would be much different than a 13 EGO, whereas a 143 EGO would be much closer to a 153 EGO. However, a gap of 10 points is a gap of 10 points. According to the current rules, the same roll that would give me total control over a 210 EGO, might have no impact at all on a 250 EGO, yet in linear terms these EGOs are very close. No. For the same reasons I've stated above. The difference between 3 EGO and 13 EGO is the same as the difference between 143 and 153. Just because the bigger numbers "feel closer together" doesn't mean they are. It takes exactly as many additional points of effect to achieve the next level against a 153 EGO as opposed to a 143 EGO as it would for a 13 EGO as opposed to a 3 EGO. +10 is +10. However, if EGO is resisitance vs Mental Attacks in exponential then a 250 EGO is much greater than a 210 EGO. How much greater? "Much" is not a precise measurement and doesn't indicate any scale other than Comparative. To illustrate with EGO vs Mental Powers, let's say you want to Mind Control someone to the "violently opposed" level: If he has 10 EGO, you need 40 points of effect. If he has 15 EGO, you need 45 points of effect. If he has 20 EGO, you need 50 points of effect. If he has 30 EGO, you need 60 points of effect. If he has 40 EGO, you need 70 points of effect. If he has 100 EGO, you need 130 points of effect. If he has 200 EGO, you need 230 points of effect. That's a linear scale. If it were an exponential scale, it might look something like this: If he has 10 EGO, you need 40 points of effect. If he has 15 EGO, you need 56 points of effect. If he has 20 EGO, you need 80 points of effect. If he has 30 EGO, you need 160 points of effect. If he has 40 EGO, you need 320 points of effect. If he has 100 EGO, you need 2000 points of effect. If he has 200 EGO, you need 2000000 points of effect. For a look at what a linear effect of EGO vs Mental Attacks would look like, take a look at the old rules (pre-4th edition). The old way Resistance worked was: 1 X EGO Minor Effect 2 X EGO Moderate Effect 3 X EGO Major Effect 4 X EGO Extreme Effect Yes, that's also a linear scale. It's a slightly different one that involves both the target's EGO and the desired level of effect. There are many different linear scales: 1 2 3 4 5 2 4 6 8 10 3 6 9 12 15 1x 2x 3x 4x 5x These are all linear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO I think one problem with such a list is that, whilst a mechanic might be ostensibly linear or exponential, the effect is often a hybrid: Example: NND against a living opponent who does not have the right defence is linear in effect: increasing the active cost increases the damage delivered in direct proportion. Normal EB against an opponent who has (as almost everyone does) Energy Defence is not linear, but neither is it exponential in effect: up to a point, increasing the active points will have no effect, then, when (realistic rolled) damage exceeds defence there is a sudden leap from zero, and adding more active points will, with increasing consistency, increase the damage delivered. Up to the critical point there is no relationship, at and just above the critical point the damage delivered is nearly exponential and then it becomes increasingly linear as damage significantly exceeds the critical point. No. It never becomes exponential. It's linear with a lower threshhold. Let's say the target has 20 DEF. Then we can chart the damage received against the points of effect rolled: Dice Total Damage Received 14 0 16 0 18 0 20 0 22 2 24 4 26 6 28 8 30 10 32 12 34 14 etc. Nothing exponential about it. A flat line with that bends into another straight line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxiMan Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Yeah, another way to say it is "it's linear, but the line doesn't intersect at 0." There's an offset, it equals the DEF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO No. It's exactly the same. 6 OCV hits 1 DCV on 16 or less. 56 OCV hits 51 DCV on 16 or less. Q.E.D. And 1006 hits 1001 on 16 or less. etc. And you yourself admit that it's the same a few paragraphs later: No. That is precisely what a linear relationship is. A difference of 5 at one place in the scale has the same effect as a difference of 5 at another place in the scale. I bleive that you are confused about what the impact of a linear relationship in a game system is. Let us start with a discussion about comparing 2 things. Imagine that you are comparing a 1 kg stone and a 100 kg stone. Assuming the same density of material, it should be pretty easy to tell the two stones apart. Now imagine comparing a 1,000,001 kg stone with a 1,000,100 kg stone. There is still the same difference between the two stones (99 kg difference). The problem is that 99 kg of difference is nothing when you are looking at 1 million kg size stones. And even 1 kg difference is vast when comparing different grains of sand. And that is the point. In terms of contests, it is not just what the difference in linear values is, but it where on the linear scale that the value appears. What you are saying above is that, in a linear strength system, a contest between pixie with a 1 STR, and a child with a 5 STR, should have the exact same odds as a contest between two giants with 10,001 STR and 10,005 STR respecitvely. I would disagree strongly. There is a massive difference in relative strength between the child and the pixie, whereas the giants are so close in strength that they would probably have no way to figure out the difference. What is a difference of 4 points of STR to a giant with a STR of more than 10,000 ? But between two pixies, a difference of few linear points of STR is vast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO I bleive that you are confused about what the impact of a linear relationship in a game system is. And the feeling is mutual. Imagine that you are comparing a 1 kg stone and a 100 kg stone. Assuming the same density of material, it should be pretty easy to tell the two stones apart. Now imagine comparing a 1,000,001 kg stone with a 1,000,100 kg stone. Hmmm... The 100 kg stone takes 99 kg-weight of force more to lift than the 1 kg stone. The 1,000,100 kg stone takes 99 kg-weight of force more to lift than the 1,000,001 kg stone. That's a linear scale. There is still the same difference between the two stones (99 kg difference). The problem is that 99 kg of difference is nothing when you are looking at 1 million kg size stones. And even 1 kg difference is vast when comparing different grains of sand. The various scales (linear, exponential, etc.) are about specific numeric measurements. "Nothing" and "vast" are not numbers on any scale, except "comparative". If you actually want to measure force, mass, weight, etc., 99 kg isn't "nothing" it's something. And it's the same thing whether you add it on top of 1 kg, or on top of 1,000,001 kg. It's 99 kg. I understand what you mean, though: you're talking about a *relative* difference. That may be useful in some contexts. It might even have some uses in HERO System (though I can't think of any off hand). Consider the following linear progression: 1 2 3 4 5 Note that 2 is 100% more than 1, but 5 is only 25% more than 4. Does that mean this isn't a linear progression? Here is an exponential progression: 1 2 4 8 16 Note that 2 is 100% more than 1, and 16 is 100% more than 8. And that is the point. In terms of contests, it is not just what the difference in linear values is, but it where on the linear scale that the value appears. It depends on what kind of contest you're talking about and how you measure it. In the HERO System, a difference in CV (to use your example from your earlier post) has the same effect regardless of where on the scale it is. A 6 OCV hits a 1 DCV with the exact same probability as a 7 OCV does a 2 DCV, and the same as 8 OCV vs. 3 DCV, and the same as 9 vs. 4, 10 vs. 5, ... 56 vs. 51, etc. They all hit on a 16 or less. It doesn't matter where on the scale the values are. What you are saying above is that, in a linear strength system, a contest between pixie with a 1 STR, and a child with a 5 STR, should have the exact same odds as a contest between two giants with 10,001 STR and 10,005 STR respecitvely. No, I'm not saying that. It would depend on what kind of a contest you are talking about and how you measure it. It you're talking about a combat between the pixie and the child and another between the two giants, it would depend on a whole bunch of other factors. If you're just talking about a weight-lifting contest, with a *linear* STR system, the child wins by the exact same amount as the stronger giant. (If we define the linear STR system as 10 kg per point of strength, they both win by exactly 40 kg.) There is a massive difference in relative strength between the child and the pixie, whereas the giants are so close in strength that they would probably have no way to figure out the difference. Yes, the *relative* difference is greater between the child and the pixie, but the *absolute* difference is the same. Yes, it's possible that the weighing scales used to measure the 10+ tons lifted by each giant might not be accurate enough to distinguish a difference of 40 kg, but if they are, then they would. 40 kg is 40 kg. What is a difference of 4 points of STR to a giant with a STR of more than 10,000 ? In the linear scale example, the difference is 40 kg. In the HERO System, which has an exponential progression for lifting capacity, it would be about 74%. A GM could round this to 75% just to make the math easier. But between two pixies, a difference of few linear points of STR is vast. 4 points difference between two pixies would still be 40 kg. And under HERO's exponential rule, the difference is again about 74%. Is this clear now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO And the feeling is mutual. Hmmm... The 100 kg stone takes 99 kg-weight of force more to lift than the 1 kg stone. The 1,000,100 kg stone takes 99 kg-weight of force more to lift than the 1,000,001 kg stone. That's a linear scale. Yes, that is a linear scale. But in almost all cases where you are dealing with 1,000,000 kg stones, a 99 kg difference is irrelevant. On the other hand, in almost all cases where you are dealing with grains of sand, 99 kg makes a world of difference. The various scales (linear, exponential, etc.) are about specific numeric measurements. "Nothing" and "vast" are not numbers on any scale, except "comparative". Exactly, and when we are talking about combat we are talking about a comparison between different characters. In combat, how does a DEX 10,000 character compare against a DEX 10,030 character? I want a comparative answer. Are these two characters almost exactly the same (relative to each other) or are they vastly different? If you actually want to measure force, mass, weight, etc., 99 kg isn't "nothing" it's something. And it's the same thing whether you add it on top of 1 kg, or on top of 1,000,001 kg. It's 99 kg. I understand what you mean, though: you're talking about a *relative* difference. That may be useful in some contexts. It might even have some uses in HERO System (though I can't think of any off hand). You can't think of any? Are you really telling me that you believe that (assuming a linear strength system) in a tug-of-war contest it would be absolute difference in strengh rather than relative difference in strength? Are you telling me that, in such a system, 1 point of STR is 1 point of STR, no matter where you are on the scale? Imagine two warriors who are about to engage in such a contest: the first with STR 20, and the second with STR 19---that sounds like a pretty close tug-of-war match to me. . . . Now, imagine a puppy (STR 1.01) in a tug-of-war with a common ant (STR 0.01), is there any question who should win in such a contest? So again, are you really telling me that, in contests between two characters (in a linear system), a point of STR is a point of STR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Yes' date=' that is a linear scale.[/quote'] Well, good. I'm glad we agree. That's all I'm saying. But in almost all cases where you are dealing with 1,000,000 kg stones, a 99 kg difference is irrelevant. On the other hand, in almost all cases where you are dealing with grains of sand, 99 kg makes a world of difference. That may be the case, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still a linear scale. My list is only about the types of scales that exist within the HERO System. The information one wishes to extract from those scales is a separate matter. Exactly, and when we are talking about combat we are talking about a comparison between different characters. Yes, but that doesn't make it a *comparitive scale*. Any two quantities on any scale can be *compared*. A "comparitive scale" is a specific type of scale. I guess I should have used the more accurate term "ordinal scale" - in other words, the scale has values in order, but there isn't necessarily any quantitative consistancy between values. The first real-world example that comes to mind is Mohs Scale of Hardness. Diamond is a 10 on this scale and Apatite is a 5. That doesn't mean that Diamond is "twice as hard" in any quantitative sense. Nor does it mean that it's five orders of magnitude harder, or five multiplied exponential factorsharder. Nor even that it's 5 units of some kind harder. In any event, in any system or scale like the HERO System, where bigger numbers are "better" - stronger, faster, more powerful - a higher value will always have an edge over a lower value, regardless of what kind of scale you're using. Of course that edge might be very small in some cases. In combat, how does a DEX 10,000 character compare against a DEX 10,030 character? I want a comparative answer. Are these two characters almost exactly the same (relative to each other) or are they vastly different? It depends on what kind of combet you're talking about. In combat versus each other, they are vastly different. One has a base CV of 3333, and the other has a base CV of 3343. The former needs a 1 or less on 3d6 to hit the latter (with the standard rule that a 3 always hits anyway, even a maneuver that applies a +2 OCV to the attacker, or a -2 DCV to the target, won't make a difference). While the latter will hit the former on a 21 or less on 3d6. With the standard rule that 18 always misses, up to a -4 OCV penalty, or a +4 DCV bonus to the defender, won't make any difference. I'd call a <5% chance of hitting vs. a >95% chance of hitting "vastly different," wouldn't you? OTOH, if you're talking about a combat in which both of these characters are attacking opponents with 10 CV, then it makes no difference at all, except in nearly unfeasably extreme cases, such as thousands of attackers getting the Multiple Attacker bonus, or targets so far away that they have more than a -3300 Range Modifier. In any event, it's irrelevent to the issue of what kind of scale it is. I'm not telling anyone what information (numeric or otherwise) to extract from the various scales. I won't argue with you over what you decide to call "almost the same" vs. "a vast difference". I have no problem with you or anyone else making any kind of comparison they want. You can't think of any? Just because I couldn't think of any right away doesn't mean they don't exist. I'll admit I haven't put a lot of effort into trying to find any. But I can't help but notice that you didn't give any examples either. Now that I think about it, maybe i can think of two: the remaining action threshhold for breaking out of an Entangle (IIRC, if you do 200% or more of the remaining BODY, you have a Full Phase left), and the Encumbrance rules, which is based on a percentage of your lifting capacity. But the latter might not count, since a character's STR is generally static - you know in advance what your STR is, and therefore what your carrying capacity is, and since that's already exponential, percentages equate directly with points of STR. So say, one-and-a-half examples. Can you think of any others? Are you really telling me that you believe that (assuming a linear strength system) in a tug-of-war contest it would be absolute difference in strengh rather than relative difference in strength? No. First, tug-of-war is a very different thing from weightlifting. Second, what difference does it make between "relative" and "absolute"? The winner is the winner. It doesn't make any difference how you describe the "spread": "The winner won by 10 pounds of force" or "The winner won by 10% more force." Are you telling me that, in such a system, 1 point of STR is 1 point of STR, no matter where you are on the scale? In a linear system, yes: each 1 point means 10 more kg that you can lift. 11 STR could lift 10 kg more than 10 STR, 21 STR could lift 10 kg more than 20 STR, 31 STR could lift 10 kg more than 30 STR, etc. (Of course, HERO doesn't use a linear scale for lifting capacity. We both acknowledge that.) Imagine two warriors who are about to engage in such a contest: the first with STR 20, and the second with STR 19---that sounds like a pretty close tug-of-war match to me. . . . Now, imagine a puppy (STR 1.01) in a tug-of-war with a common ant (STR 0.01), is there any question who should win in such a contest? That's not an apples-to-apples comparison. To make it fair, let's stipulate that both warriors weigh 100 kg, the dog weighs 10 kg, and the ant is a giant ant, also weighing 10 kg (even though it still only has 0.01 STR). So again, are you really telling me that, in contests between two characters (in a linear system), a point of STR is a point of STR? That depends on the rules you use for a tug-of-war contest (I don't know if HERO has an official method). In a linear system, any rule that gives the slight edge to the 20-STR warrior, must also give the same edge to the dog. If you're just using a STR-vs-STR contest: 1d6/5 STR - counting the BODY, and you round the 19 STR up and give the second warrior 4d6, then there is *no* difference between the two warriors in this contest. But then to be consistant, you round both the dog and the 10-kg ant's STR and they both get 0 dice, then there's no difference between them either. Again, I'm not telling anyone how to *use* these scales. I'm just listing what they *are*. (And it's kind of interesting that in the RAW, STR has a linear effect on STR vs. STR rolls, even though it has an exponential effect on lifting capacity. So if lifting capacity determines success in a tug-of-war, then no, a point of STR is not the same anywhere on the scale, but if you use a STR-v-STR roll (1d6/5 points) then it is.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO That's not an apples-to-apples comparison. To make it fair, let's stipulate that both warriors weigh 100 kg, the dog weighs 10 kg, and the ant is a giant ant, also weighing 10 kg (even though it still only has 0.01 STR). No. We'll stipulate that there is a 1 point difference in strength and a 2 kg difference in weight between each contestant. Warrior 1 has a STR of 20 and a weight of 102 kg. Warrior 2 has a STR of 19 and a weight of 100 kg. The puppy has a STR of 1.01 and a weight of 2.01 kg The ant has a STR of 0.01 and a weight of 0.01 kg. In each case the stronger contestant has an edge of 1 point of STR, and an advantage of 2 kg in weight. Is it your position that the contest between the two warriors has the same odds as the contest between the puppy and the ant? Again, it is my position that the actual linear difference is less important than the relative difference. 1 point of STR and 2 kg doesn't mean that much to the two warriors, but it represents a huge difference between the puppy and the ant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Warp9, I don't really understand most of this stuff, but I think the problem here is you're trying to think "real world" instead of looking at the mechanics, and Phil is looking at straight mechanics, and saying "how you use them is up to you". In Mechanics terms Warrior 1 will ALWAYS win, the puppy will ALWAYS win (assuming you just compare STR and don't introduce random die rolls), and they will always win by exactly the same amount. Even if you introduce die rolls, assuming everyone rolls the same number of dice based on STR (for example everyone rolls 1 die for every .01 STR) Warrior 1 and the puppy will win pretty much the same number of times. From a mechanics standpoint there is NO difference between the puppy and warrior 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Warp9, I don't really understand most of this stuff, but I think the problem here is you're trying to think "real world" instead of looking at the mechanics, and Phil is looking at straight mechanics, and saying "how you use them is up to you". In Mechanics terms Warrior 1 will ALWAYS win, the puppy will ALWAYS win (assuming you just compare STR and don't introduce random die rolls), and they will always win by exactly the same amount. Even if you introduce die rolls, assuming everyone rolls the same number of dice based on STR (for example everyone rolls 1 die for every .01 STR) Warrior 1 and the puppy will win pretty much the same number of times. From a mechanics standpoint there is NO difference between the puppy and warrior 1. From a mechanics standpoint, in HERO (using an exponential scale) there is a *BIG* difference in the two STR contests. The example I used was based upon a linear system. In a linear system the strength stats were as follows: Warrior#1 = STR 20 Warrior#2 = STR 19 Puppy = STR 1.01 Ant = STR 0.01 In HERO the stats would be a bit different. I'm going to convert the stats based on lift ability. In a linear game (assuming stat 10 is normal), double normal lift STR = 20, but in HERO double normal lift STR = 15. So warrior #1 goes from 20 linear STR to 15 HERO STR. In HERO exponential stats would look as follows: Warrior#1 = STR 15 Warrior#2 = STR 15 Puppy = STR -6 Ant = STR -40 In an exponential system, there is little difference between the two warriors, but there is a HUGE (34 point) STR difference between the Puppy and the Ant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO From a mechanics standpoint' date=' [b']in HERO[/b] (using an exponential scale) there is a *BIG* difference in the two STR contests. The example I used was based upon a linear system. In a linear system the strength stats were as follows: Warrior#1 = STR 20 Warrior#2 = STR 19 Puppy = STR 1.01 Ant = STR 0.01 In HERO the stats would be a bit different. I'm going to convert the stats based on lift ability. In a linear game (assuming stat 10 is normal), double normal lift STR = 20, but in HERO double normal lift STR = 15. So warrior #1 goes from 20 linear STR to 15 HERO STR. In HERO exponential stats would look as follows: Warrior#1 = STR 15 Warrior#2 = STR 15 Puppy = STR -6 Ant = STR -40 In an exponential system, there is little difference between the two warriors, but there is a HUGE (34 point) STR difference between the Puppy and the Ant. You know, having read this whole thread I'm not sure any longer what you're trying to prove, but IMO all you've managed to prove is: A) rules that assume an exponential scale don't work well with a linear scale, you seem to think the way Hero models the real world is the only way to, and C) you don't really get it that different kinds of scale imply nothing about the value of the information presented nor the best way to use that information. BTW: if I set up two machines, each designed to pull on a rope with an adjustable amount of force, and hooked them both up to the same rope (with a marker in the middle of that rope), the time it would take the "stronger" machine to pull the marker X meters closer to it would (barring frictional forces and other minor complications) depend on the LINEAR difference between the forces involved, NOT the ratio between those forces. Simple physics, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO You know' date=' having read this whole thread I'm not sure any longer what you're [b']trying[/b] to prove, but IMO all you've managed to prove is: A) rules that assume an exponential scale don't work well with a linear scale, you seem to think the way Hero models the real world is the only way to, and C) you don't really get it that different kinds of scale imply nothing about the value of the information presented nor the best way to use that information. BTW: if I set up two machines, each designed to pull on a rope with an adjustable amount of force, and hooked them both up to the same rope (with a marker in the middle of that rope), the time it would take the "stronger" machine to pull the marker X meters closer to it would (barring frictional forces and other minor complications) depend on the LINEAR difference between the forces involved, NOT the ratio between those forces. Simple physics, really. I believe that most contests between characters should be based on the relative differences between individuals. Obviously you disagree. The problem with your example above is that, from my observations, most living things have good days and bad days. Therefore most living things do not act in an absolutely constent manner. If they did there would not be any need for randomness, the higher stat value would always win. I don't always run the same distance at exactly the same speed. Although I will admit that my "good days" are almost exact in terms of timing. But a bad day can really hurt my times. I don't go for "Ultra-Heavy" lifts, so I don't really know how much my absolute max lifts would vary by, but I do know that my ability to do reps of a given weight is not always exactly the same. And I'm assuming that such a difference would also apply to the max weight I could lift in a given situation. Further, it seems to me that these differences between good days and bad days are relative to the level of power we are discussing. For example: it seems likely that a human weight lifter might differ by a +/- 0.1 kg between max lift from a good day to a bad day (note: if people have specific data on these matters it would be interesting to hear about it) . An ant's lifting may not be exactly constent either, but it will never vary by +/- 0.1 kg. This brings me back to my primary point: assuming that contests between characters are based on the relative differences between individuals, then this relative difference can be expressed as a constent gap in an exponential system. A 5 point gap in Hero System could be the difference between a strong pixie and a weak pixie, or the difference between a strong human and a weak human, or the difference between a strong giant and a weak giant. That way, the rules will be more consistent in contests involving all sorts of creatures, including both strong and weak pixies, as well as strong and weak giants. On the other hand, in a linear system, strong and weak pixies will have a very small point gap between them, where as strong and weak giants will have massive point gaps between them. So I don't think that, in terms of contests between entities (in linear systems), the actual point gap is that important. The actual amount of power you are dealing with can be important in many cases. But in contests between characters, IMO that, rather than knowing that character A can lift X more kg than character B, it is more inportant that character A is 20% percent stronger than character B. GURPS 3rd edition (where STR is linear) actually dealt with this exact problem in one of the GURPS compendiums. Their system for Strength contests was based upon actual point differences in STR values. But the GURPS designers realized that, while this system functioned fairly well for normal humans, it was broken for contests involving giants and contests involving pixies. The giants had too great a difference in STR, and the pixies had too small a difference in STR. All of this leads me to conclude that the way some contests function in Hero system means that stats like OCV and DCV probably follow an exponential pattern, rather than linear pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Warp9 Variation in performance from occasion to occasion is irrelevent to the scale used to measure potential performance. This brings me back to my primary point: assuming that contests between characters are based on the relative differences between individuals' date=' then this relative difference can be expressed as a constent gap in an exponential system.[/quote'] IOW, in an exponential scale, differences in the numbers are based on ratios in the thing measured. This is tautological and thus proves nothing. On the other hand' date=' in a linear system, strong and weak pixies will have a very small point gap between them, where as strong and weak giants will have massive point gaps between them. So I don't think that, in terms of contests between entities (in linear systems), the actual point gap is that important.[/quote'] This is self-contradictory. Either the "gap" is important ("very small point gap" vs. "massive point gaps"), or it isn't ("I don't think...the actual point gap is...important"). The only conclusion I can reach is that you think EVERYTHING should be measured on an exponential scale, and that you will resolutely ignore any demonstation that there are linear scales in HERO. I will refer you back to Phil's post about --- #6 above --- that proves that CV (as an example) is a linear scale. Your subsequent posts lead me to believe that you do not, in toto, understand the difference between types of scales, and that you are willing if not eager to drag in red herrings if challenged. In short, there are linear scales in HERO, they predominate, and they work fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Hey, good stuff, Mister F. My list is only about the types of scales that exist within the HERO System. The information one wishes to extract from those scales is a separate matter. Quite right. A) rules that assume an exponential scale don't work well with a linear scale. It's not so bad. I rather like trying to figure out ways of implementing negative damage classes. It helps pass the time, and keeps me off the street. Imagine what a dangerous world this would be if it weren't for roleplaying games, basketballs, and mirrors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Warp9 Variation in performance from occasion to occasion is irrelevent to the scale used to measure potential performance. True, but I'm not arguing that it is. I am arguing that there is greater variation, in terms of actual kg lifted, in the case of human weightlifter, than the variation would be with something like an ant. This is self-contradictory. Either the "gap" is important ("very small point gap" vs. "massive point gaps"), or it isn't ("I don't think...the actual point gap is...important"). Maybe you can understand it this way: I can throw a 0.5 kg (1.1 lb) object many meters further than I can throw a 10.5 kg (23.1 lb) object. However, the distance in meters that I can throw a 50kg (110 lb) object is not much different from the distance in meters that I can to throw a 60 kg (132 lb) object. I can't throw either of those weights more than a tiny distance. Again it is not just the actual gap (10kg) that is important here, it is the gap relative to the total mass involved. The 10 kg gap is much more important when going from a 0.5 kg mass to a 10.5 kg mass, than it is when going from 50 kg to 60 kg. Or since you like Physics, we could do it this way. . . . Lets start with the following equation, we'll assume a constant force (100 N) and look at changes in mass of 10 kg: Force / Mass = Acceleration Starting Situation #1 (starting mass = 0.1 kg) 100 N / 0.1 KG = 1000 m/s^2 Acceleration Now Add + 10 kg to the mass. . . . 100 N / 10.1 KG = 9.9 m/s^2 Acceleration Actual Difference in Acceleration: about 990 meters per second per second. Starting Situation #2 (starting mass = 50 kg) 100 N / 50 KG = 2 m/s^2 Acceleration Now Add + 10 kg to the mass. . . . 100 N / 60 KG = 1.67 m/s^2 Acceleration Actual Difference in Acceleration: 0.333 meters per second per second. Is it now clear how that we can say, without contradiction, that the actual gap (the difference of 10 kg) can be less important than the relative gap in mass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO ::sigh:: Warp9: you started by saying that CV could not be a linear scale because it didn't take into account relative differences (i.e., differences in ratio). When it was pointed out that CV DID act in a linear fashion, you went into enormous detail about how a linear STR stat wouldn't act like HERO's exponential STR stat. I'm sorry, but your repeated use of circular argument, straw man, and red herring has worn thin. I see no point to talking to you on this subject any further. Unless you want to address your original point and give some reason for asserting that CV's are exponential, I will not bother replying to any more of your posts on this subject. Believe what you want to, it makes no difference to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Warp9: At first, I thought I understood the point you were trying to make, but it seems I have missed it. If it matters to you, you could try restating it. Is your point that: a) I have identified one or more of the scales within HERO incorrectly? You think that one or more of the scales within HERO should be changed to some other scale? c) There are scales within HERO that you think should be used in a different way? d) Something else? If it's A, which one(s)? I'd be happy to correct any misidentifications I may have made. I don't think I made any so far. And I'm at least correct about all the ones you've mentioned so far. If it's B or C, that's fine, and you're welcome to give your arguments, and you may well be right, or at least have a good case. But that isn't really the purpose of my list. Though I certainly don't mind if the thread drifts a little. If it's D, then I missed it completely. All of this leads me to conclude that the way some contests function in Hero system means that stats like OCV and DCV probably follow an exponential pattern, rather than linear pattern. Why do you say "probably"? Don't you know how the stats work? They either work linearly or exponentially (or by some other scale). In this case, they happen to work linearly. There's no "probably" about it. For any stat within the game, a difference between two characters can be expressed as either an absolute number (in points of stat, or character points spent, or some other unit), or as a relative number (a percentage or a fraction). If Ahmed has a 20 in "gloofosity" and Nunzio has a 21 in "gloofosity", then you can say either, "Nunzio is 1 point more gloofous than Ahmed," or, "Nunzio is 5% more gloofous than Ahmed." Which of those two statements is more useful will depend on what it is you're trying to do. In HERO, most of the time, it's the absolute difference that matters, such as in Damage vs. Defence, STR-vs-STR rolls, Skill contests, OCV vs. DCV, etc. Apart from the one and a half examples I gave in my last post, I can't think of any instances in HERO where the relative difference matters. I notice you haven't given any examples either. Oh, I just though of one more half-example: the Altered Duplicates Advantage for Duplication, which is based on what percentage of points are spent differently, but it's only a half-example because, as with the encumbrance table example, it's generally a static thing - you buy it and then you have it, it doesn't fluctuate up and down. IFAIK, there are no official tug-of-war resolution rules within HERO. Whatever method you wish to use will determine whether STR has a linear or exponential effect on the outcome. If it's a STR-vs-STR roll (1d6/5 STR), then it will be linear. If it's an opposed STR roll (9+STR/5 or less on 3d6), then it's also linear. If it's based on lifting capacity somehow (say 1d6/100kg over the opponent's weight liftable), then it will be exponential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO ::sigh:: Warp9: you started by saying that CV could not be a linear scale because it didn't take into account relative differences (i.e., differences in ratio). When it was pointed out that CV DID act in a linear fashion, you went into enormous detail about how a linear STR stat wouldn't act like HERO's exponential STR stat. You mean "pointed out" in the following quote? In linear terms the difference between 1 DCV and 6 OCV is much greater than the difference between 51 DCV and 56 OCV. No. It's exactly the same. 6 OCV hits 1 DCV on 16 or less. 56 OCV hits 51 DCV on 16 or less. Q.E.D. And 1006 hits 1001 on 16 or less. etc. And you yourself admit that it's the same a few paragraphs later: But you'll find that the combat difference between 1 DCV and 6 OCV is the same as the difference between 101 DCV and 106 OCV, this speaks of a non-linear relationship No. That is precisely what a linear relationship is. A difference of 5 at one place in the scale has the same effect as a difference of 5 at another place in the scale. Compare this to a exponential scale: taking a RW example, the Richter scale, which measures the power of earthquakes: I've already explained how PhilFleischmann was incorrect. Phil was correct that, in terms of a linear scale, each point means exactly the same as every other point in linear value. The problem is that, in terms of a contest between characters, having some number of points of difference on a linear scale means nothing. In relative terms, the difference between 1 and 2 on such a scale represents a doubling. The relative difference between 1001 and 1002 is almost nothing; it represents a drop in the bucket. I'm sorry, but your repeated use of circular argument, straw man, and red herring has worn thin. It is always easy to make such accusations; the problem is that I don't think that you can back them up with the facts. Unless you want to address your original point and give some reason for asserting that CV's are exponential, I will not bother replying to any more of your posts on this subject. It is very simple. Imagine a contest between characters with stats of 10,000 and 10,030 If those characters are almost equal, relative to each other (99.7% the same) then it is likely that we are looking at linear scale. If one character is FAR superior relative to the other one, then it is likely that we are dealing with an exponential scale. Looking at CVs, we can tell that, in a contest between characters, the 10,030 OCV is far superior to the 10,000 DCV. If you put one up against the other, they are not 99.7% the same. Thus I conclude that CVs are based on an exponential scale, where 10,030 OCV is FAR superior, in relative terms, to 10,000 DCV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Warp9: At first, I thought I understood the point you were trying to make, but it seems I have missed it. If it matters to you, you could try restating it. Is your point that: a) I have identified one or more of the scales within HERO incorrectly? You think that one or more of the scales within HERO should be changed to some other scale? c) There are scales within HERO that you think should be used in a different way? d) Something else? If it's A, which one(s)? I'd be happy to correct any misidentifications I may have made. I don't think I made any so far. And I'm at least correct about all the ones you've mentioned so far. It is A. Both the CV case and the Mental Powers Effect case are about contests between characters. I feel that relative difference is more important than actual linear difference between characters. Why do you say "probably"? Don't you know how the stats work? They either work linearly or exponentially (or by some other scale). In this case, they happen to work linearly. There's no "probably" about it. That is because I'm basing my views on how things should work if the rules are IMO "well made." GURPS 3rd edition is a good example of how I could be wrong. Their rules for linear contests did not take into account relative difference between characters. I might have concluded, in error, that they did not want fully linear stats. But GURPS specifically addressed this problem in one of the Compedium Rule books: they fixed it so that contests were redone to take into account relative ability. Thus a contest between two pixies with stats of 1 & 2 played out the same way that a contest would between two humans with stats of 10 & 20. In short, GURPS 3rd ed wanted linear stats, but the original 3rd ed rules were poorly done. And before they updated the rules, it would not have seemed fully linear to me. The same explaination could apply to Hero, maybe 10,000 DCV and 10,030 OCV are supposed to be 99.7% the same, IMO they just don't play out that way. For any stat within the game, a difference between two characters can be expressed as either an absolute number (in points of stat, or character points spent, or some other unit), or as a relative number (a percentage or a fraction). If Ahmed has a 20 in "gloofosity" and Nunzio has a 21 in "gloofosity", then you can say either, "Nunzio is 1 point more gloofous than Ahmed," or, "Nunzio is 5% more gloofous than Ahmed." Which of those two statements is more useful will depend on what it is you're trying to do. In HERO, most of the time, it's the absolute difference that matters, such as in Damage vs. Defence, STR-vs-STR rolls, Skill contests, OCV vs. DCV, etc. Apart from the one and a half examples I gave in my last post, I can't think of any instances in HERO where the relative difference matters. The key point where we disagree is that I don't beleive that absolute difference has anything to do with contests between characters. Going back to the ant, and the puppy, and the two warriors: the same absolute differences exist in each contest, but in one case, those numbers mean a great deal more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Master List of Scales in HERO For every +2 OCV's you have, you can either hit a target that is half as big (5 pts of Shrinking) or twice as far away (range mods). This is how I conceive differences in CV's as exponential. Sure, most of the mechanics (like CV's) have been abstracted to linear-esque resolutions, but it's all interconnected into a system that incorporates exponential (and/or geometric) elements which tend to dominate the virtualization of the setting (size, mass, distance, watts...). Granted this aspect is largely existent only in the imaginations of the players, and doesn't hold up to universal inspection; but, after all is said, the game is about superficially emulating reality: and the phenomenal story of the game is played only on the surface of the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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