Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

[Reality Czech]

Yet another power build question...

 

I'm trying to figure out a way to allow an individual to deflect ranged attacks as a reflexive action. Looking at Checkmate's response to Saiyanslayer's "Extra arms for blocking" thread, the answer that seems to fit the best would be duplication.

 

Example:

Checkmate said

Duplication (creates 200-point form), Cannot Recombine (+0), Altered Duplicates (100%; +1) (80 Active Points); Duplicate Can Only Block for Main Form (-2), Both Exsist in Same Form (-1/2)

 

The 200-point build is an example, not necessarily a predicted or calculated cost. Missile deflection power and bare-bones attributes would be all the duplicate needed.

 

Exception: I'm thinking the duplicate would need a 12 SPD if you expected to ALWAYS be able to deflect missiles, and that would still disallow deflection of simultaneous attacks unless you also bought missile deflection for the "Primary" character and two simultanous attacks occured when the Pirmary had an action available.

 

So- my character has, say, a 4 SPD. Under a standard build he'd be able to use deflection anytime he was attacked with something he could deflect and aborted an action to the deflect.

 

With the addition of the duplicate, he could not only deflect when he didn't have an action (as long as the duplicate did) he could continue to act normally on his initiaves, since he's not expending actions using the deflection power. If the duplicate had a 12 SPD, deflection could occur on any inititave, almost simulating a field around the character that deflects missiles without need for any real conscious effort.

 

Extending the original reasoning, would you ahve to keep creating more duplicates with the same power set in order to deflect multiple simultaneous attacks? I.e. 4 guys fire guns at our hero... do I need 4 duplicates activating their missile deflection power to service all 4 incoming attacks at the same time?

 

I hope this makes my intent clear, I'd love feedback on whether this is a fair and reasonable application of the rules and if anyone can think of a more elegant solution.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

Missle D is a combat power. I've let this build be used:

 

Missle Defelction, Continous, Uncontrolled (total active cost 50).

 

Then flavor to taste with limitations. I seem to remeber that for some reason that isn't compleetly book legal, but I go with it. The cost is on par with 3/4 reduction, so it seems pointed about right.

[OddHat]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

+12 DCV, Only Versus Missiles, Restrainable, Special Effect: Missile Deflection, Active Cost: 60 Points, Real Cost: 30 Points.

 

Almost no one will hit him with a missile attack unless they take him by surprise or when he's entangled, stunned or unconscious. Special Effect is that he's deflecting the missiles. No complicated builds, no extra rolling during combat, no extra book keeping, no special rules exceptions.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

I'm impressed, Oddhat. That's certainly simpler and less bulky... Now I think I sould have added more detail though. I said deflection, but that was because I was examing reflection as a future upgrade to the power when the points were available. If I want to reflect attacks I can't just add the DCV bonus anymore, I need to actually redirect the incoming ranged attacks.

 

Your answer was fantastic, it was my question that was flawed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

I like Oddhat's build. If you wanted to match the mechanics of missile deflection, Lord Mhoarm's approach makes sense. Alternatively, you could have Missile Deflection with a self-resetting Trigger causing it to activate whenever you perceive an attack which you could missile deflect.

 

I think this would be a more expensive option (no book with me). However, since each Triggered use of the power would be a separate use of missile deflection, this would also avoid the penalty for repeated deflections.

 

EDIT: Reflection should work under either the Uncontrolled Continuous appproach or the Trigger approach.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

I was going to go with +20/+20 armour, only v ranged atatcks (-1), 30 real points, but OddHat's suggestion is better. I was going to suggest this because I was thinking 'Thin end of the wedge': always on missile reflection.

 

Well my first instinct is 'I don't think so', and my first question is, 'How are you planning to justify that one?'

 

I mean, pretty much by definition reflection requires some sort of conscious aiming process, even though it doesn't require an attack action, and how long will it be before you are reflecting at targets that did not aim at you? I mean, do you have a teammate called 'Harry Cannon' who has a massive but inaccurate attack? Just asking.

 

I'm an old cynic, aren't I?

 

My second instinct is to look a bit closer.

 

Missle reflection uses base OCV. I'd want to check that was not too silly.

 

Missile deflection (and reflection) is already constant, so you don't need continuous. Technically you could get away with 'just' uncontrolled, so for 60 points you could reflect all ranged attacks back at the attacker. That feels too cheap. Of course indirect requires a reasonably obvious and common method of switching it off (and I'm sensing that is not an attractive thing to you).....I'm still coming back to 'what are the sfx' here....

 

You could do it with a 'trigger (automatic reset, no time action trigger - ranged attack) for +1. That's REALLY attractive because, as the MD resets for each attack, it is at full OCV to deflect for each attack. I can see your eyes lighting up.

 

Of course my third instinct is that my first instinct was right.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

I'm pretty sure the trigger would be the more expensive option, but it allows for reflection of any number of attacks, which is what I'd really like to see... certainly much less complex than the duplication concept. A triggered power would allow reflection of the "4 guys firing guns" example so long as our hero percieved all 4 attackers, so I think that's a good one.

[OddHat]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

I'm impressed' date=' Oddhat. That's certainly simpler and less bulky... Now I think I sould have added more detail though. I [b']said [/b]deflection, but that was because I was examing reflection as a future upgrade to the power when the points were available. If I want to reflect attacks I can't just add the DCV bonus anymore, I need to actually redirect the incoming ranged attacks.

 

Your answer was fantastic, it was my question that was flawed.

 

Ah. Thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, there isn't as simple a way to handle Reflection. Hugh's build, with Reflection on a self re-setting trigger, is book legal and comes very close to being exactly what you'd want; the only problem is that it could be argued that you're still taking the action, you're just automatically aborting to it. That would leave the character reflecting every incoming attack but unable to take his own actions until a phase he hadn't burned for Reflection rolled around. Worth asking Steve Long about, though: if it doesn't cost a phase, it's pretty much exactly what you're looking for.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

Another idea would be to simply by a bunch of levels with Missile Deflection, only to offset penalties, similar to the way multiple attacks can be built with Levels with Rapid Attack. Because you get to keep deflecting with the same half phase combat action till you blow it.

Personally, I'd probably combine the Trigger approach and the extra levels, however, because the levels approach does have one big liability... if you catch a bad roll at the wrong time you can leave a gap in the defences, because you can't abort to a defensive action on a phase you've already taken a combat action on.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

Oddhat wrote:

 

Worth asking Steve Long about, though

 

Wow, 2 power build questions and I get something worthy of asking Steve Long?

 

Sean Waters wrote:

Well my first instinct is 'I don't think so', and my first question is, 'How are you planning to justify that one?'

 

I think what you're asking here is how can someone reflect an attack (aim an attack elsewhere vice just not getting hit by it) without it costing an action at all, writable power or not. Or put another way, "You may be able to create a power that does this, but how can you justify your hero doing it without thinking about it?"

 

If that's what you're asking, I'll try to clarify what I'm thinking of.

 

My spatial distortion concept (Locus) hero can shape space... he can strech, compress, and/or bend space with his will. He can apply 4-dimensional topology to 3-dimesional space. In theory, space is curved by mass, he simply has the ability to apply curvature temporarily that wasn't there before.

 

If you want to see some of the other applications I've thought of that could be used with this basic power set, you can look here. The justification I see for him being able to "Unthinkingly" redirect attacks at a specific target is that his inherent understanding of space and movement makes it basically just a thought, not an action to redirect the attack. If he can percieve the attack, he can think about it going elsewhere. I'd probably have the reflection based on ECV to reflect this, but that's more of a preference than a requirement.

 

By the way, how are you guys quoting me and others where the quote includes a hyperlink to the originally quoted post? I can't seem to find that function, or I don't recognize it as the function by its name.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

.............................

 

By the way, how are you guys quoting me and others where the quote includes a hyperlink to the originally quoted post? I can't seem to find that function, or I don't recognize it as the function by its name.

 

 

Press the 'Quote' button rather than the 'Post Reply' button. You can edit the post, but it polite to make it obvious that you have.

[braincraft]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

Triggered powers don't use up your action. Wouldn't be much point to them otherwise.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

Press the 'Quote' button rather than the 'Post Reply' button. You can edit the post' date=' but it polite to make it obvious that you have.[/quote']

 

Just found the function myself, but I really appriciate the etiquitte tip. I just quoted you in the other thread I created without indicating I didn't quote in toto... a thousand appologies.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

Just found the function myself' date=' but I really appriciate the etiquitte tip. I just quoted you in the other thread I created without indicating I didn't quote in toto... a thousand appologies.[/quote']

 

Oh you don't have to worry about me, I'm almost* impossible to upset. You have my permission to edit my posts to correct spelling and grammar, and poorly convieved idea (that's most of it then), and to misquote me completely for humorous purposes, or if you've had a bad day and need to take it out on someone.

 

 

 

*unless we are related: we're not, are we?

[OddHat]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

So, based on Steve Long's response here, Hugh Nielson's build is a legal way to achieve Always On Missile Deflection or Reflection.

 

Stop Hitting Yourself: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (80 Active Points)(80 Real Points)

 

Not bad at all for the cost.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

Oh you don't have to worry about me, I'm almost* impossible to upset. ...

 

*unless we are related: we're not, are we?

 

I suppose it's possible, I come from a long line of bachelors.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

So' date=' based on Steve Long's response here, Hugh Nielson's build is a legal way to achieve Always On Missile Deflection or Reflection.

 

Stop Hitting Yourself: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (80 Active Points)(80 Real Points)

 

Not bad at all for the cost.

 

ROFL, was "Stop Hitting Yourself" your naming idea or someone else's? That literally had me laughing at work and getting funny looks from my coworkers.

[OddHat]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

ROFL' date=' was "Stop Hitting Yourself" your naming idea or someone else's? That literally had me laughing at work and getting funny looks from my coworkers.[/quote']

 

Glad you liked it. The name is mine, the build is Hugh's suggestion.

 

For extra fun, give the character a variable special effects HA Damage Shield and some levels with Block and have him mock those who dare attack him.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

Glad you liked it. The name is mine, the build is Hugh's suggestion.

 

For extra fun, give the character a variable special effects HA Damage Shield and some levels with Block and have him mock those who dare attack him.

 

Now that's just mean-spirited

[Reality Czech]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

So' date=' based on Steve Long's response here, Hugh Nielson's build is a legal way to achieve Always On Missile Deflection or Reflection.

 

Stop Hitting Yourself: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (80 Active Points)(80 Real Points)

 

Not bad at all for the cost.

 

Ok, final power as I see it based on this input and not constrained by cost (not sure what I'd do to palatably reduce the cost anyhow)

 

Shoot Me... I Dare you: Missile Reflection (Any Ranged Attack), Reflect At Any Target, Triggered by any percieveable incoming ranged attack (No trigger activation time, automatic reset after it activates; +1), Based On EGO Combat Value (Standard Defenses apply; +1) (102 Active Points)(102 real points).

 

Locus can redirect any ranged attack he percieves at the attacker or any other target within range, attacks are based on ECV but applied against standard defenses for whatever the attack was which was intended for him.

 

I made it applicable to any target to take advantage of the special effects of multiple attacks (i.e. "Fire Lad's" attacks get tossed at "Professor Freeze" and vice versa) and based on ECV to better replicate the "just think about it and it happens" Nature of this defensive power (Besides, I see Locus as more mentally apt then dexterous, so why not use his strengths?)

[GAZZA]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

Some really interesting responses here (I love the idea of a Duplicate!)

 

One of the issues with Trigger is that it specifically says you can't use something like "when touched", and "when attacked by a ranged attack" looks a lot like a variant of that to me. It says that damage shield is what you want for that sort of effect, but of course damage shield is no good as a missile deflection power (even if it worked against ranged attacks - which it doesn't - damage shield would only activate after you've been hit, by which point it's too late to deflect it, if I'm understanding correctly).

 

Continuous Uncontrolled works, but you need a "reasonably common means" to shut off the power. Is something like "turned off by Stunning or knocking out the power user" valid?

 

There was a character in Alien Enemies (a 4th ed supplement) called "The Champ" who tried to pull this off by buying the power 0 END Persistent (of course that is nonsense - Missile Deflection doesn't cost END anyway, and you can't make an Instant power Persistent without first making it Continuous).

 

I do agree that "reflexive Missile Deflection" is the "thin end of the wedge", but as OddHat points out, it's easy enough to simulate with an appropriate DCV bonus. The Reflection part is something that I would be somewhat loathe to allow as a GM; you're basically asking for the ability to attack anyone who attacks you at range without consuming a phase, and at the same time blocking their attack. That's Damage Shield ++, and Damage Shield is apparently already such a dangerous advantage that it now needs to be combined with Continuous (with the predictable result that virtually all builds using Damage Shield are now advantage stacking to try and get some use from it - Ultimate Superpowers Database is full of them).

[Reality Czech]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

I know this power concept is wretchedly abusive, it's not something I'd bring into a game... unless I was the GM and the players got really cocky. The main thing I wanted to work out with this is how to build it as I envision it. This power concept is one of those that is (IMO) only limited by imagination and AP caps.

 

What does "thin end of the wedge" refer to anyway?

[GAZZA]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

It basically means that's it definitely borderline abusive, if not over the border.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

Is the "wedge" some sort of movie/physics/gaming reference?

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Seeking build suggestions for "Always on" missile deflection

 

I played with the Always On Missile Deflection before for a Luckster. I wanted him to be able to not be sniped, they always miss. IIRC, I tried the trigger method but the trigger was "When attack is detected by Danger Sense." Then he bought a Danger Sense that was unconscious (he wasn't aware of the danger consciously). Several powers were triggered off of a successful Danger Sense roll. Always felt a tad munchkiny, but it felt right for the luck character.