Experiments in Character Construction

[archermoo]

Re: +½ to ignore DCV or ½ DCV...you decide

 

What I am saying is that I see IPE allowing you to make surprise attacks. IPE != Invisibility

 

But IPE doesn't make it any easier to make a surprise attack. It makes it easier for you to get away without anyone knowing you made the surprise attack.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

I always thought of it more as modeling what happens when you shoot someone. The gun and the bullet are both SFX. The actual power you purchased is the ability to do damage to other characters.

 

Ah, good point. Nevermind me last statement - this is more accurate

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

Ok, I can see where the argument is with IPE attack not reducing a targets DCV in combat.

 

However, what happens if the attack is also AOE like a grenade? Yeah, the target's DCV might still be 'normal' but since they can't perceive the attack they can't know that they should be Diving For Cover.

 

Given a sufficient # of attackers or enough range between attacker and target the IPE attack is effectively coming from an Invisible opponent.

[archermoo]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

Given a sufficient # of attackers or enough range between attacker and target the IPE attack is effectively coming from an Invisible opponent.

 

Potentially, but not because it has IPE on it.

 

A sniper doesn't have to have IPE to get a surprise shot in on someone. A sniper has to have IPE so that they can get away afterwords without people knowing where the shot came from.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

Potentially, but not because it has IPE on it.

 

A sniper doesn't have to have IPE to get a surprise shot in on someone. A sniper has to have IPE so that they can get away afterwords without people knowing where the shot came from.

 

Have you ever looked at Defense Maneuver I-IV?

 

You seem to be giving those abilities to anyone for free.

[archermoo]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

Have you ever looked at Defense Maneuver I-IV?

 

You seem to be giving those abilities to anyone for free.

 

Yes, I have. DM I gets rid of the penalty for being attacked from behind. II means that attackers you perceive don't get a multiple attacker bonus. III means that even attackers you can't perceive don't get a multiple attacker bonus. IV makes it so you don't have to use a 1/2 move to get the above.

 

What does any of that have to do with IPE on an attack?

[TheJudge]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

Bullets aren't invisible, anyway. They're just tiny and move really fast (up to 2000mph?). Now look at how HERO models flash suppressors: IPE normal sight.

 

Food for thought.

 

 

FYI: bullets do not move 2000mph from any normal gun that can be carried by humans and it's impressive the veichle mounted guns that do launch projectiles at velocities exceeding the speed of sound.

 

Now with that said IPE is meant to make a target at 1/2 DCV if the attack if undetectable that's the advantage of IPE.

[TheJudge]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

Potentially, but not because it has IPE on it.

 

A sniper doesn't have to have IPE to get a surprise shot in on someone. A sniper has to have IPE so that they can get away afterwords without people knowing where the shot came from.

 

If An attack is IPE and the target has not means of perceiving the attack they would not have a clue the effect originated from the attacker just that someone attacked them.

 

If you dont have gesture or incant or any other obvious limitation that would cause you to make a perceivable action then the target would get hit and no one would be the wiser where the attack originated from.

 

Example mental powers are invisible except to mental awareness or other mental senses so when someone is attacked by a mentalist they have no ideal who actually attacked them unless the mentalist is suspected of being such or has a reputation of being psionic. Even with the reputation no one would know for sure that the mentalist attacked them they would simply have a suspicion and without evidense their claim of self-defense would not hold up in court.

 

IPE does not make you unaware that you have been attacked just unaware of it's origin, however if you buy IPE to hide the effect of the power as well then you could do damage to some one and they not know that damage has been done.

 

In either case rule it how it works best in you world but by Hero System rules IPE does make the origin of the attack unclear/unperceivable and thus would make a target 1/2 DCV by combat rules of fighting unperceived attacks.

[archermoo]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

If An attack is IPE and the target has not means of perceiving the attack they would not have a clue the effect originated from the attacker just that someone attacked them.

 

If you dont have gesture or incant or any other obvious limitation that would cause you to make a perceivable action then the target would get hit and no one would be the wiser where the attack originated from.

 

Example mental powers are invisible except to mental awareness or other mental senses so when someone is attacked by a mentalist they have no ideal who actually attacked them unless the mentalist is suspected of being such or has a reputation of being psionic. Even with the reputation no one would know for sure that the mentalist attacked them they would simply have a suspicion and without evidense their claim of self-defense would not hold up in court.

 

IPE does not make you unaware that you have been attacked just unaware of it's origin, however if you buy IPE to hide the effect of the power as well then you could do damage to some one and they not know that damage has been done.

 

In either case rule it how it works best in you world but by Hero System rules IPE does make the origin of the attack unclear/unperceivable and thus would make a target 1/2 DCV by combat rules of fighting unperceived attacks.

 

As I asked in your IPE vs Invis thread, if you could provide a ref in a 5th edition Hero System book to back up your "IPE makes the target at 1/2 DCV" I'd appreciate it.

 

The rules covering being Surprised in combat specifically state that if it is reasonable for you to assume that you are being sniped at, even if you don't know where the sniper is, you still aren't considered to be surprised by the attack. I don't see any reason why IPE attacks would be different.

 

If you wish to add a 1/2 DCV for opponents component to IPE in your campaigns, feel free to. But it certainly isn't part of the system itself.

 

Oh, and as a note, IPE does not have the ability to make it so the target of the attack doesn't know they have been attacked. There is an option to double the advantage to make it so that others cannot see the effects of the attack, but it specifies that the target still is aware of the effects of the attack.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

FYI: bullets do not move 2000mph from any normal gun that can be carried by humans and it's impressive the veichle mounted guns that do launch projectiles at velocities exceeding the speed of sound.

 

Now with that said IPE is meant to make a target at 1/2 DCV if the attack if undetectable that's the advantage of IPE.

 

FWIW, Bullet velocities can exceed 2000 mph. With a few exceptions, most modern weapons fire supersonic ammunition (above 1083 ft/s), and the practical limit for chemically propelled projectiles is right around 5900 ft/s (KE penetrators from tank guns and the like). To get an approximate translation from ft/s to mph, multiply ft/s by .68. Putting that tank penetrator at around 4012 mph. Virtually all rifle rounds are significantly supersonic, hence the 'bow wave' sound you hear when sideways to the path of flight.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

FWIW' date=' Bullet velocities can exceed 2000 mph. With a few exceptions, most modern weapons fire supersonic ammunition (above 1083 ft/s), and the practical limit for chemically propelled projectiles is right around 5900 ft/s (KE penetrators from tank guns and the like). To get an approximate translation from ft/s to mph, multiply ft/s by .68. Putting that tank penetrator at around 4012 mph. Virtually all rifle rounds are significantly supersonic, hence the 'bow wave' sound you hear when sideways to the path of flight.[/quote']

 

fyi, here is site with some example bullet velocities:

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/MariaPereyra.shtml

 

The site gives velocities in m/s (meters per second) and unless I'm way off a good approximation to mph would be to multiply the values by 2.25.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

fyi, here is site with some example bullet velocities:

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/MariaPereyra.shtml

 

I have quite a lot of info available on firearm and ammunition stats.

 

2000 mph isn't hard to reach with a bullet, was all I was getting at...

any bullet moving above 2940 ft/s muzzle velocity is leaving the gun at or over 2000 mph.

 

Your link gives several examples in that speed range, and I could name others pretty easily (the 150 grain .300 win mag, f'rinstance)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

As I asked in your IPE vs Invis thread, if you could provide a ref in a 5th edition Hero System book to back up your "IPE makes the target at 1/2 DCV" I'd appreciate it.

 

The rules covering being Surprised in combat specifically state that if it is reasonable for you to assume that you are being sniped at, even if you don't know where the sniper is, you still aren't considered to be surprised by the attack. I don't see any reason why IPE attacks would be different.

 

If you wish to add a 1/2 DCV for opponents component to IPE in your campaigns, feel free to. But it certainly isn't part of the system itself.

 

Oh, and as a note, IPE does not have the ability to make it so the target of the attack doesn't know they have been attacked. There is an option to double the advantage to make it so that others cannot see the effects of the attack, but it specifies that the target still is aware of the effects of the attack.

 

Ok, IPE may not cause the 1/2 DCV by itself but it easily enables it. If the attacker with a Fully IPE ranged attack is disguised as a normal bystandard his attacks will be vs. 1/2 DCV since no perception roll can succeed.

 

from: 5er page 349,

 

Lack Of Senses In Combat

In combat, a character must normally use a Targeting Sense to detect his target. If he can do so, there is no change in his OCV or DCV, and combat proceeds normally. However, characters can’t always perceive their opponents with Targeting Senses. For example, a character may have been blinded by a Flash, or his opponent could be Invisible. When a character cannot perceive his opponent with any Targeting Sense, he suffers modifiers to his OCV and DCV:

 

—In HTH Combat, the character is at ½ OCV and ½ DCV. This applies both to when he makes attacks in HTH Combat, and is attacked in HTH Combat.

 

—In Ranged Combat, the character is at 0 OCV and ½ DCV. This applies both to when he makes attacks in Ranged Combat, and is attacked in Ranged Combat.

 

If a character can make a PER Roll with a Nontargeting Sense (a Half Phase Action) to perceive a particular target, then against that target only he is at -1 DCV, ½ OCV when attacked or attacking in HTH Combat, and full DCV, ½ OCV when attacked from or attacking at Range. Against all other targets he is affected by the standard “lack of Targeting Sense” modifiers described above.

 

So in the sfx case of a typical non-silenced supersonic bullet with IPE only on the Sight Group the argument could be made that the target wouldn't even get a non-targeting perception roll with his hearing because supersonic by definition means that the bullet will arive before the gun's bang will.

[archermoo]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

Ok' date=' IPE may not cause the 1/2 DCV by itself but it easily enables it. If the attacker with a Fully IPE ranged attack is disguised as a normal bystandard his attacks will be vs. 1/2 DCV since no perception roll can succeed.

 

from: 5er page 349,

 

 

 

So in the sfx case of a typical non-silenced supersonic bullet with IPE only on the Sight Group the argument could be made that the target wouldn't even get a non-targeting perception roll with his hearing because supersonic by definition means that the bullet will arive before the gun's bang will.

 

There is a difference between being blinded or fighting an invisible opponent and just not knowing who they are.

 

Not knowing who is attacking you is covered under Suprised. Which specifically covers the penalties for someone you don't realize is attacking you attacking you. Up to and including that if you have good reason to believe that you may be targeted by a sneak attack that Surprise probably doesn't apply.

 

Again, if people want to add an in combat effect to IPE for their games they are certainly welcome to. But it isn't part of the core rules.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

There is a difference between being blinded or fighting an invisible opponent and just not knowing who they are.

 

Not knowing who is attacking you is covered under Suprised. Which specifically covers the penalties for someone you don't realize is attacking you attacking you. Up to and including that if you have good reason to believe that you may be targeted by a sneak attack that Surprise probably doesn't apply.

 

Again, if people want to add an in combat effect to IPE for their games they are certainly welcome to. But it isn't part of the core rules.

 

Maybe some people can't connect to dots from IPE to Suprise Maneuver but it IS in the core rules.

 

And can anyone guess what the Suprised in combat penatly is?

 

It's 1/2 DCV !!

 

see 5er page 381.

 

The only exceptions to taking this penalty are Danger Sense, Defense Manuever or expecting the particular nature of the attack (ex: knowing an opponent can turn invisible).

[archermoo]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

Maybe some people can't connect to dots from IPE to Suprise Maneuver but it IS in the core rules.

 

And can anyone guess what the Suprised in combat penatly is?

 

It's 1/2 DCV !!

 

see 5er page 381.

 

The only exceptions to taking this penalty are Danger Sense, Defense Manuever or expecting the particular nature of the attack (ex: knowing an opponent can turn invisible).

 

I can indeed, which is why I mentioned it specifically in the post that you quoted (as a note, it is a Combat Modifier rather than a Maneuver). I'll quote the part that I was refering to:

 

"On the other hand, if the character has good reason to suspect the presense of a sneaky attacker, a sniper, or the like, Surprised probably wouldn't apply."

 

IPE doesn't help you get surprise. IPE helps you not get detected when you attack from surprise. I can attack from Surprise with a normally pervievable attack. They'll just realize where I am and be able to attack me back.

 

IPE doesn't give you a Surprise attack in and of itself. It certainly doesn't give you one once the target(s) are aware that you are attacking. While the same factors that make the attack IPE can also contribute to it being a Surprise, they certainly don't guarantee it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

 

IPE doesn't help you get surprise. IPE helps you not get detected when you attack from surprise. I can attack from Surprise with a normally pervievable attack. They'll just realize where I am and be able to attack me back.

 

 

No.

 

IPE in my previous disguise example means that the target does not percieve the attacker as a threat and therefore does not get his full DCV vs. any IPE.

 

If the disguised attacker used a non-IPE attack the target would only need to make a non-targeting sense perception roll like hearing to get his full DCV vs. the 1st shot. With FULL IPE there is no chance of this happening therefore barring the target's prior knowledge (like Danger Sense) of the specific IPE sfx he will suffer a 1/2 DCV penalty vs. IPE attacks.

[archermoo]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

No.

 

IPE in my previous disguise example means that the target does not percieve the attacker as a threat and therefore does not get his full DCV vs. any IPE.

 

If the disguised attacker used a non-IPE attack the target would only need to make a non-targeting sense perception roll like hearing to get his full DCV vs. the 1st shot. With FULL IPE there is no chance of this happening therefore barring the target's prior knowledge (like Danger Sense) of the specific IPE sfx he will suffer a 1/2 DCV penalty vs. IPE attacks.

 

I agree that that is the case with the first shot, unless of course the person being attacked is expecting an attack from unknown quarters. However, after the first shot they are now aware that they are being attacked from unknown quarters and have their full DCV vs those subsequent attacks. Keep in mind that buying up IPE to include Invisible Effects On The Target only means that others cannot see the effects of the attack. It doesn't stop the target from knowing they have been attacked. 5ER p262, last sentance before the example under the Invisible Effects On The Target heading in the first column.

 

I don't see what the problem is. Surprise specifically notes that if the target is expecting some sort of attack Surprise probably isn't applicable. I'll admit that it is likely that someone using Disguise and an IPE attack will probably get a Surprise shot in as their first attack. If they are attacking a group, possibly one on each member of the group, if the group doesn't manage to let each other know that there is a sneak attacker working. Without other factors I don't see them getting any more than that.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

I agree that that is the case with the first shot, unless of course the person being attacked is expecting an attack from unknown quarters. However, after the first shot they are now aware that they are being attacked from unknown quarters and have their full DCV vs those subsequent attacks. Keep in mind that buying up IPE to include Invisible Effects On The Target only means that others cannot see the effects of the attack. It doesn't stop the target from knowing they have been attacked. 5ER p262, last sentance before the example under the Invisible Effects On The Target heading in the first column.

 

I don't see what the problem is. Surprise specifically notes that if the target is expecting some sort of attack Surprise probably isn't applicable. I'll admit that it is likely that someone using Disguise and an IPE attack will probably get a Surprise shot in as their first attack. If they are attacking a group, possibly one on each member of the group, if the group doesn't manage to let each other know that there is a sneak attacker working. Without other factors I don't see them getting any more than that.

 

You're still missing my point. The successfully disguised attacker without IPE still has a chance of facing the target's FULL DCV based on their perception of the attack sfx where IPE attack does not. The Suprise rules don't override the Lack of Senses rules as your interpretation suggests.

[archermoo]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

You're still missing my point. The successfully disguised attacker without IPE still has a chance of facing the target's FULL DCV based on their perception of the attack sfx where IPE attack does not. The Suprise rules don't override the Lack of Senses rules as your interpretation suggests.

 

And you are missing mine. IPE doesn't remove any of the target's senses, nor does it make the attacker invisible. The applicable rule is Surprise.

[archermoo]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

And you are missing mine. IPE doesn't remove any of the target's senses' date=' nor does it make the attacker invisible. The applicable rule is Surprise.[/quote']

 

And the answer is, both of us are right. From the rules FAQ:

 

Q: If a character attacks with a power that has Invisible Power Effects, does the target suffer a DCV penalty?

 

A: That’s really going to depend on the situation (and thus the GM’s judgment). In a lot of cases, the target may suffer a Surprised penalty, or the GM could adapt the rules for fighting invisible opponents. If only the means of the attack, but not the making of it, are invisible, that tends to diminish the effect if the victim is perceiving the making of the attack.

 

Thought it does say that the rules for fighting invisible opponents would have to be adapted. I would certainly go the "target may suffer a Surprised penalty" route, as it makes more sense to me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

IPE In And Of Itself grants no Surpise or DCV modifiers. It simple renders the An Attack Invisible (and attacks by default must be perceived by three senses).

 

Surprise, Invisible Attacker, Disguised Attacker, Successful Stealth Roll or an Attacker Otherwise Not Perceived By The Target (not the Attack, the Attacker) will get the Surprise bonus.

 

IPE is simply an enabler componant to continue to gain these bonuses after the first shot. It does none of this by itself.

 

And many times you get a Surprise bonus just by starting combat unexpectedly, which again has nothing to do with IPE.

 

If you're already in combat, and only have IPE, you will not get a Surprise bonus unless the Attacker in unperceivable, not the Attack.

[Silbeg]

Re: Expirments in Character Construction

 

However, in more than one game I've had players who built Inobvious foci that weren't obvious even while or after being used. It would be like having a walking stick that has Indirect fire projection or something - basically a Foci you can use and people STILL don't know that it's what's doing it... whatever "it" is.

 

Now, to me that seems MORE valuable than being a "mere" Inobvious foci. There's an additional level of undetectability at work there. I've wrestled with players over this before, and never come up with a satisfactory conclusion. I mean, skip the Indirect thing, even. Suppose I had a ring that let me throw fire from my hands, but I buy it as Inobvious and state that it doesn't glow or anything of the sort. For all anyone knows, I throw fire from my hands, period.

 

Isn't that less of a Limitation than what the walking stick/flamethrower has? Sure, it's Inobvious, but only until it's used. I'm not comfortable with just one gradation of Obviousness there. It seems the ring has even less of a Limit than the "mere" IAF the walking stick gets.

 

 

Maybe I am wrong, but to me, an IIF may still become apparent when used, unless the power is bought Invisible Power Effects (for the source of the power). This is because the activation of a visible power will always be apparent.

 

Now, if the Mad Sorcerer has a walking stick that enables him to create explosions from the ground by tapping it in a certain way, but that are untraceable back to him, then that should have a variety of Modifiers. First, there would be Indirect, and IPE. As for Limitations, this would probably have IAF (a cane being accessible, usually), and maybe Only Affects Targets on the Ground. Throw in the appropriate "color" lims, and there you go.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Expirments in Character Construction

 

Maybe I am wrong' date=' but to me, an IIF may still become apparent when used, [i']unless[/i] the power is bought Invisible Power Effects (for the source of the power). This is because the activation of a visible power will always be apparent. ...

 

But the focus could be a pendant worn on a necklass which is also worn under a character's costume/clothes. Yes, most powers going through this IIF will be visible barring IPE but their relationship to the pendant will not be.

 

Since IIF is worth the same -1/4 as OIHID it's worth looking at Captain Marvel (Shazam!) who is one of the poster boys for that Limitation. Everyone does not know his power word. Some villains may have discovered his secret or just share it (Dr. Silvana and Black Adam) but those are the exceptions, not the rule.

[Checkmate]

Re: Experiments in Character Construction

 

So LordSkatterhawk, does all of this answer your question?