Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

[OddHat]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

If the details are drawn from your mind, and not provided by the illusionist, then "inconsistencies" or "growing incongruities" seems to be a rather inconsistent SFX explanation for breakout rolls or the escalation of breakout rolls. You basically lose that notion... and as in the post above, seem forced into some sort of "it just fades over time" as a default.

 

Superior Man is hit with a Mental Illusion that he is living a perfect life on his home planet of Lepton. As his mind labors to free him from his hallucination (as he makes more breakout rolls) his subconscious points out more and more things that are wrong about the hallucination, and introduces incongruous elements to try to shock him free. He has dinner with his father, but his father is acting out of character. Earthquakes start to occur as his subconscious reminds him that this world was destroyed. People from his life on Earth start to show up in Lepton garb. All of that comes from his mind. If the Mental Illusionist had to know about the existence of Lepton and details of the character's life there, he'd never be able to pull off that classic comic book trope at all.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

 

1305463]A look at the mechanics doesnt seem to make them all that new, but how the power pretty much has to work without being useless

 

"useless" seems like way over the top hyperbole. but if thats how you feel, your experience with mental illusions in play has been vastly different from mine.

You call it clever, I call it hobbled.

in my experience, the power played the way I describe: illusionist provides details and the illusionist is thus aware of the illusion specifics (necessary for the former to be true) has played well and effectively over many years.

 

If the victism mind doesnt fill in details..it doesnt spread. It just burns in the same spot. Nothign reacts to the victims actions--illusionary doors wont open, the illusionary monster wont react to an attack. Thats an almost imediate collapse of the illusion, not the gradual increasing chance of a break out rol after each time increment (whic after a phase, a turn, gets rather long. If the illusion is still not drawing any detaisl from the mind, after a minute, its sort of hard to see how the victim is still believing the illusion.

So if it does sort of draw off the victims mind to start, it continues to do so--its just the lack of maintenance slowly brings increased opportunities for the victism mind to wake up, as the illusionist isnt holding those perceptions down so tightly.

those assumptions that nothing changes at all... do not seem supported anywhere and certainly, if they were the default, then you are right, that would make the power rather useless.

 

Again, if end is paid, it doesnt. (and a 0 end, persisant mental illusion certainyl never gets any easier, or a continuing charge type illusion).

Actually, it was my recollection that in order to stop the breakout escalation you have to continue paying full end even if the power has zero end cost, but i could be mistaken.

In fact, for mental illusion affects whose specisl effect isnt another mind imposing the illusion, but a chemical like a hallucinogen..itsobviosu the illusionary detaisl coem from inside the subjects mind, and are filled with what he knows.

As i recall, distant memory, the discussion of that under say ego power based on con, specifies that the illusion comes from what the victim is told. book not in front of me.

Powers shouldnt take research to have their basic effects possible.

indeed and had you been keeping up you would see that we agree.

 

 

In case you missed it, as you seem to have, i will detail it again...

 

to make an illusion of a hoastage being taken for instance does not require research, just you as the illusionist provding an image of a hostage. Make her a child or a womoan or a poodle as you wish. That is a BASIC EFFECT and is possible without research. For many heroes, that is going to get their attention.

 

In order to PERSONALIZE the illusion to your victim, to make it more than "some stranger" you have to know and have done the legwork to use someone more special to him. If you want it to be his loved one, you need to know who they are? if you want it to be his sister, you have to know who she is? If you want it to be the mayor, you have to know who the mayor is AND YOUR VICTIM MAY NOT KNOW! This is not requiring research to get basic effects but allowing additional effort, knowledge and prep to make the effect better.

 

This is IMo much the same thing as figuring out my enemy is vulnerable to fire or afraid of waterand using my fire blast instead of my lightning or arranging to have my headquarters on the lakeshore. i do extra work, i figure out something to exploit and I get beneifts.

 

If on the other hand my power does all that work for me and figures out who ae his loved ones or what his worse fear is without me lifting a finger or reading a back issue or bribing a lackey... then hey, its certainly easier... but less rewarding and IMX less fun for those wanting this.

 

 

without the continuous editing or control by the mentalist who just lets the illusion go, the mind simply starts to shake things off. After all, the increasing of the breakout roll is purely a function of time at this point--not quality of the illusion.

As stated by others above, deteriorating quality of the illusion or the gradual recognition of errors in detail is a common sfx description of why the illusion gets easier to break out of and fail. It seems you ad i both agree this is inconsistent with having the details fished magically from the victim's mind.

 

of course, that rationale can be jettissoned in favor of "it just gets weaker".

its just somewhat odd to keep pruning back common things people dont seem to mind in order to keep the mechanics happy. I am a make the mechanics make me happy guy not vice-versa.

 

or maybe they expect the power to be effective for what theyy paid for it. You dont have to study a targets armor to know how to get the energy blast to work, after all.

 

no, but if i want to hit him with "the blast he is vulnerable to" i do have to find out what that is.

 

Same with illusion... if i want to have a hostage grabbed, i can have my illusion do it. If i want that hostage to be someone special to this individual victim, thus increasing his interest... then i ought to have to know who is important to him, not just have my power do that for me.

 

if i have a PD eb iceball and a lightning eb vs ED and i want to throw at my enemy the one which will hurt him the most, can i just say "i throw the best one"? Will my power figure that out for me? No? Are those powers "hobbled" or "useless" because i cannot tell without doing extra work which is best against a single specific foe? How have blasters survivied all these years with such "useless" or "hobbled" powers?

 

Well if i want to throw an illusion of "the innocent in danger" to distract my foe and if I want that innocent to be "the person he most cares about" so as to maximize the effectiveness and use his own specifics against him, then IMO its just fine to require the illusionist know the specifics and not have the power select the best for him.

 

IMO... others opinions may vary of course.

 

but the moment i start telling my players "the power draws the details for you" and stop them from providing useful inoput into the illusions because "the details come from the victim" and "you dont even know what the illusion is" is the moment i start seeing the people who like playing illusionists picking up other characters.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

Why would your mind provide an image of your mother to the scene when your mind is the one providing the details?

Why would your mind pt your girlfriend into cutoffs when all i said was "he sees his girlfriend" and your mind did the work?

Why would your mind not fill in the details of the steak getting less as it is eaten or maybe a server bringing you a second helping?

 

One word: carelessness.

 

An illusionist specifies, "He sees his girlfriend, dressed up like that girl over there." But I know my girlfriend would never dress like that.

 

An illusionist specifies, "He sees the one person who annoys him the most." But I know my mother in back in Tennessee.

 

An illusionist specifies, "It's a steak illusion." The GM asks, "How long do you want it to last." The illusionist says, "Dude, as long as I'm paying END."

 

If the details are drawn from your mind, and not provided by the illusionist, then "inconsistencies" or "growing incongruities" seems to be a rather inconsistent SFX explanation for breakout rolls or the escalation of breakout rolls. You basically lose that notion... and as in the post above, seem forced into some sort of "it just fades over time" as a default.

 

Clearly not. Especially since I've played more than one mental illusionist and, well, inconsistencies and growing incongruities have worked exactly as imagined (no pun intended). This would be especially true of things like "you see your worst fear," because - very often - one's worst fear is the kind of thing that isn't likely to happen.

 

Likewise note that unless the mental illusionist achieves very high effect, the target can still see everything else quite clearly. If my worst fear is a, say, a huge rabid bear, and I'm the only one who seems to see it... growing incongruities! Gosh, for something you dimissed so thoroughly, they seem to keep cropping up.

 

In contrast, its perfectly reasonable to describe the illsionists missing on this ot that due to imperfect knowledge of the subject or lack of attention to detail, he is doing a lot, as time goes on especially since he is not actively forcing the issue... IF THE ILLUSIONIST IS THE ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ILLUSION AND DETAILS.

 

He is. He's the one that specified "he sees his worst fear." He's just not COMPLETELY responsible for what I see. And, in fact, that's HOW inconsistencies arise. If he knew my worst fear would be a bear, he might not have used that one when we are, say, in the middle of the Sahara Desert.

 

But IMX the guys who wanted to play illusionists, wanted to do the work, wanted to use the terrain and scenery and such and themselves work the details of their illusions to be "believable" and thus more effective (an approach i see as clever but some see as "hobbled"??) as opposed to just tossing their power paying end and having all that handled by the power.

 

While this approach of letting all that be done by the power without the player having to bother with it certainly makes the power less demanding on the player to use, i dont see that as what the guys playing illusionists were hoping to get into.

 

a) The mental illusionist is as free to specify as much detail as he wants, so this in no way hinders the guy who plays illusions in the way you propose. If I want someone to see the mayor holding a child hostage, I can use mental illusions to project an image of the mayor as I know him. But the guy seeing it won't necessarily recognize it as the mayor. I could also say, "He sees the mayor holding a child hostage!" But then, I run the risk that he doesn't know who the mayor is, in which case his subconscious might churn up any old image he associates with the word mayor, like an image of the guy from "Spin City"... oops, there are those pesky incongruities again.

 

Their attitudes are clearly not universal, as many people like the power fine the way it is. It works perfectly well to recreate various powers found in fiction, comics, television, and movies, such as the person who can make you see what you most desire or most fear. So whether you see Mental Illusion as currently conceibed as what the guys playing illusionists were hoping to get into or not, clearly it's exactly what some are after. Me included.

 

The bottom line is, because of certain things the Mental Illusions power is expected and intended to be able to do, it MUST be a subjective, "the target fills in certain blanks" effect. There's simply no way around it. The illusionist who wants someone to see a bear can always project an image of a bear as he (the illusionist) knows them, whether the victim has ever seen one or not. But the illusionist who wants to say, "whatever he desires most" must have that 'participation' from the victim. What I don't see is the principled reason for DENYING this aspect of the power. Once we dismiss the idea that such illusions are not prey to inconsistencies (they are, as has been shown), there doesn't seem to be any reason to hold out on that point.

[incrdbil]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

indeed and had you been keeping up you would see that we agree.

 

well, if you want to descend tosnarkyness, fine.

 

In order to PERSONALIZE the illusion to your victim, to make it more than "some stranger" you have to know and have done the legwork to use someone more special to him.

 

Except the power doesnt work that way. You can't do the common tricks (opponents looking like friends) without knowing details in advance, and all powers of those friends.

 

Research may help, but making it required to do 'a relative' or 'best friend', your family, your greatest fear, your most dangerous enemy makes it a very limited power. We've already got Steves answer that the victim fils sin the blank, but the very fact the power works on its own afterward shows the illusion has to draw some direction from the victims mind; it just doesnt freeze in place without contstant management. If the illusionist has to provide the details you talk of, (who your most beloved is) then the illusionist has to provide all other details--the illusion dodges; the illusion uses a energy blast; the illusion cries out for help as you try to ignore it, it goes left instead of right, etc.

 

 

Again, researching can help make a better illusion. Making someone see their wife who is currently in another Galaxy is not a great idea--but if the effect is rolled, thats what the player will see. if they dont have a wife, they may see someone who they wanted to be their wife, acting as their wife--but they will certainly remmeber never marrying that person.

 

I'm not denying research won't help, or will at least keep you from making some mistakes, but to suppose its necessary to be able to do an illusion of soemthing the victim knows, and the illusionist doesnt, when the power already mechanicly shows it draws on the subjects own mind in its most basic functions just doesnt hold water.

 

It seems you ad i both agree this is inconsistent with having the details fished magically from the victim's mind.

 

Its not inconsistent. Its an offered explanation, but a myriad of others wont do. The inherent rejection of a false relaity, continuing contradictions between what the actual senses detect--all thats important for breakout is that the illusionist keeps paying end to reinforce the power; there's nothing saying he ever makes changes to the illusion, or updates it--he simply pours in energy to keep it from weakening. He can be blasting away with his ful concentration on other matters.

 

I am a make the mechanics make me happy guy not vice-versa.

 

Same here--in this case, the mechanics do things right, and don't require the illusionist to go to extreme lengths to get some effectiveness out of his power.

 

 

no, but if i want to hit him with "the blast he is vulnerable to" i do have to find out what that is.

 

Not a valid comparison. This is in making the power work at all--not incredibly more effective.

 

if i have a PD eb iceball and a lightning eb vs ED and i want to throw at my enemy the one which will hurt him the most, can i just say "i throw the best one"?

 

another invalid comparison--a choice of two different powers to find the best one. In this case, the illusion creates the players desired effect--if that was a wise choice or not depends on the specifics (an illusion of a dead wife suddenly in danger, or the return of an arch enemy the character secretly knows is in jail or has turned to good) may make for an easier breakout roll, but the illusion is still going to be there, it just may not last very long at all, even if the illusionist made his effect roll without a problem.

 

That bad choice is more like firing an energy blast at an opponent without bothering to check to see if they are known to have strong energy defenses or absorbtion abilities--the attacker will find out the bad effects of the decision in the powers result, not being denied to do it in the first place.

 

 

 

Will my power figure that out for me? No? Are those powers "hobbled" or "useless" because i cannot tell without doing extra work which is best against a single specific foe? How have blasters survivied all these years with such "useless" or "hobbled" powers?

 

illogical comparison.

 

Well if i want to throw an illusion of "the innocent in danger" to distract my foe and if I want that innocent to be "the person he most cares about" so as to maximize the effectiveness and use his own specifics against him, then IMO its just fine to require the illusionist know the specifics and not have the power select the best for him.

 

If you give the illusionist a limitation on his power, I'd agree.

 

 

 

but the moment i start telling my players "the power draws the details for you" and stop them from providing useful inoput into the illusions because "the details come from the victim" and "you dont even know what the illusion is" is the moment i start seeing the people who like playing illusionists picking up other characters.

 

Well, if you did do that, your players would be right to complain because you are running mental illusion incorrectly.. It draws details from the victims mind, but that doesn't mean the illusionist has no ability to make an input as it continues, and directly contridicts the rules on mental powers. Where did you get that from?

 

As for not knowing what the illusion is--the specifics on that questions may need to be clarified, but the rules dont support that the illusionist doesnt know, in fact they lean towards the illusionist knowing at least something.

 

If the ilusionist wants to change the ilusion, increase the effect, the general rules for mental powers already take care of this.

 

They certainly are going to know what the victims reactions are..well, as long as they are paying end on the power. Once they stop paying end, I dont see anything suggesting the illusionist has any more knowledge of what is going on with the illusion (and maybe a canny way for a victim who has broken free to get a suprise attack).

 

Hmm, that begs another question--you know if a target breaks free from a supported illusion or mind control (where end is paid)--what about once it isnt paid? Should the mentalist be able to tell? My feel is 'No'.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

 

One word: carelessness.

An illusionist specifies, "He sees his girlfriend, dressed up like that girl over there." But I know my girlfriend would never dress like that.

An illusionist specifies, "He sees the one person who annoys him the most." But I know my mother in back in Tennessee.

An illusionist specifies, "It's a steak illusion." The GM asks, "How long do you want it to last." The illusionist says, "Dude, as long as I'm paying END."

So, the preferred system takes details the player/character provides and uses them to HOSE him? He is better off just saying "girlfriend" and not trying to describe her because the victim will provide the description unless the silly, incompetent mentalist actually tries to provide detail?

 

I think fairly rapidly the sentient illusionist under this system figures out heis best off NOT providing any detail or as absolutely little as possible because he might as well let the victim provide details that seem reasonable.

 

 

One word: carelessness.

Clearly not. Especially since I've played more than one mental illusionist and, well, inconsistencies and growing incongruities have worked exactly as imagined (no pun intended). This would be especially true of things like "you see your worst fear," because - very often - one's worst fear is the kind of thing that isn't likely to happen.

certainly on the gorss scale if your worst fear was inappropriate to the environment thats an issue but after that your mind provides the details and it seems illogical to somehow figure my own mind is providing contradictory details.

 

Again, the inconsistenies only stem in this notion from the illusionist, pushing the "smart move" into the illusionist providing as little as he has to and letting the victim do the rest. It becomes a power where the more the illusionist is involved, the more he can screw it up, and the less he does, the better he is, which is 100% contrary to the way i have seen illusionist players want the thing to work.

One word: carelessness.

Likewise note that unless the mental illusionist achieves very high effect, the target can still see everything else quite clearly. If my worst fear is a, say, a huge rabid bear, and I'm the only one who seems to see it... growing incongruities! Gosh, for something you dimissed so thoroughly, they seem to keep cropping up.

the issue of "do others see the illusion and comment to you on the lack of it being there" aplies whether its your mind providing details or the illusionist. if allies can communicate with you that the illusion isn't there effectively, you get additional breakout rolls. There is NO REASON to assume this is an issue for "victim details" as opposed to one for "illusionist details".

 

One word: carelessness.

He is. He's the one that specified "he sees his worst fear." He's just not COMPLETELY responsible for what I see. And, in fact, that's HOW inconsistencies arise. If he knew my worst fear would be a bear, he might not have used that one when we are, say, in the middle of the Sahara Desert.

heck, not knowing what your worst fear is... it might be speaking in public or appearing naked at work, he might be an idiot to use that much detail at all.

 

One word: carelessness.

a) The mental illusionist is as free to specify as much detail as he wants, so this in no way hinders those guys who want to play illusionists whom you are familiar with.

except that as you repeatedly point out above, the sole soruce of inconsistencies is the details provided by the illusionist. the system you suggest vastly benefits those who try and provide no detail ot as little as possible, letting the victim do the work for them, and punishes the ones who do attempt to provide details.

 

If the illusionits says "your girldfriend dressed like a biker" BANG you get breakout cuz you know your girlfriend wont dress like that.

If you say "worst fear" without knowing the worst fear is appropriate, BANG you get breakout because the illusionist provided inconsistencies.

 

Illusionist is better saying "girlfriend" or maybe "life partner" (you might be gay and BANG breakout roll) or maybe even just "someone he cares about" (you might not have a girlfriend or life partner at the moment and BANG you get breakout roll) and definitely for scary stuff say "a creature he is frightened of" because "his worst fear might be an inappropriate creature (bang breakout roll) or might not even be a creature at all (holy cow i am naked in public???!!!)

 

sure, he is free to provide as much detail, but every thing says "dont" and he should just let the power do that for him.

 

One word: carelessness.

Their attitudes are clearly not universal, as many people like the power fine the way it is. It works perfectly well to recreate various powers found in fiction, comics, television, and movies, such as the person who can make you see what you most desire or most fear. So whether you see Mental Illusion as currently conceibed as what the guys playing illusionists were hoping to get into or not, clearly it's exactly what some are after. Me included.

 

i believe i have said several times i am sure it works for some. there will always be people who want different things, and IMX most of the players wanting to play illusionists want to have control over the illusions, want to be the one providing the details, and want that attention to detail and clever use be to their benefit, not be the main reason to have their power fail.

 

In fact, i think it may be pretty widespread and i would be surprised to find anyone who wants that when their illusion fails it is BECAUSE OF their attention to detail and extra effort instead of being IN SPITE OF such.

 

So i am fairly confident that as soon as i start taking th e advice here and start teling my illusionist "he broke out because your described his girlfriend's outfit wrong" that wont be seen as making the illusionist more fun to play or " see how i am not hobbling you" or making the power "not as useless" or any of those things.

 

My preference as i coddle my players with their useless hobbled powers is to let their putting more ttention and more detail and more effort into use PAY OFF and help them, not serve me as fodder for "why your power failed".

 

I am just slack that way!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

First off, mental illusion works as it says in the book, mechanically.

 

Now I prefer to assume that the Illusionist has to specify the Illusion. It is assumed therefore that the Illusionist manages a competent illusion: you use the normal rules to determine if it works, and how.

 

OddHat makes an excellent point about attacking a character with, say, enhanced senses that you lack - the illusion would be unbelieveable.

 

I find that hard to reconcile with my preferred viewpoint, because it makes great sense. I might even go as far as to change my mind (shock, horror!). If I don't then what I'd probably do is to allow bonuses to the character with enhanced senses to breakout. If not then filling in the gaps could be unintentionally very misleading:

 

KirillianMaster (who has a magnetic vision enhanced sense) is subject to a mental illusion of Electonica, whom he has never met, and 'fills in' a Kirillian Aura for her.

 

Later on he meets the real Electronica, but assumes that she is a fake as her Aura is all wrong....

 

That would be OK if it was an intentional misdirection, but an unintentional one seems to be penalising KirillianMaster for having an enhanced sense...

 

Difficult.

 

OTOH, adding mind control or telepathy into the mix would really firm up the illusion.

 

Perhaps what MI does is NOT fill in the gaps, but supresses your ability to spot them. I'd probably be happy enough with that interpretation.

 

This would certainly explain why it is easier to overlay an illusion on reality than completely create a new reality for the target. It would also limit the way in which you can apply your powers. I mean, if a character has a Psych Lim (fear of spiders - total breakdown) I'd not be that happy triggering it with a 'greatest fear' illusion, but more than happy if the Illusionist - whether accidentally or on purpose - created a spider illusion.

 

A 'Greatest Fear' power should probably be a combination of a very specialised telepathic attack linked to the mental illusion. At least in my 'reality'.

 

The point at the heart of it though is that it does not matter - I can assume the target fills in gaps - or that he doesn't - and use the same mechanics in any event.

 

It is a matter of style and choice rather than Holy Writ, and so long as you are consistent, I don't think it matters that much.

 

 

 

 

 

*No, I don't. Prove it.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

BTW again repeating for clarity, i am not saying there should never be allowed powers which do draw details from the victim's mind. i am saying that they should be purchased with the ability to determine this.

 

its like with trigger... if you want the trigger to work off something you cannot percieve, you need to buy the appropriate sense and then slap a big lim, was it -1 or more, for "only to feed the trigger, not for me to percieve with".

 

I meanm imagine this build: i want a mental illusion of one of your loved one's going nuts and attacking you, triggered to go off when you are within 10' of a loved one.

 

I would not need to buy "detect loved one" for the mental illusion to draw you the image of her going nuts and attacking... but i would need to buy "detect loved one" for the trigger, since i myself cannot just tell by looking who is a loved one and who isn't.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

For those who are of the "The player has to describe the illusion that his character is setting up", how do you deal with the fact that a 10 INT player may not be as sharp at capturing all the details, and avoiding in congruities, as the 30 INT Mentalist with 12d6 of mental illusions?

 

A player whose character can track by scent doesn't have to close his eyes and find his way to one of the other players, guided solely by after shave.

 

A player whose character has a 35 DEX and Acrobatics at a 21- isn't required to demonstrate how his character tumbles through a crowd of agents, leaps onto the hood of a car and uses it for spring to leap over a nearby brick wall.

 

A player with a character who has +30 ED and 3/4 Damage Reduction vs Fire doesn't need to shove his hand into a bonfire to simulate his character's abilities.

 

By the same token, a 30 INT illusionist should not be restricted to his player's ability to capture fine detail, nor should a 30 PRE character with Oratory 21- be constrained to his player's stuttering monotone.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

 

First off, mental illusion works as it says in the book, mechanically.

if one is playing by the book, sure, but there are those who choose differently.

Now I prefer to assume that the Illusionist has to specify the Illusion. It is assumed therefore that the Illusionist manages a competent illusion: you use the normal rules to determine if it works, and how.

here is where we agree.

OddHat makes an excellent point about attacking a character with, say, enhanced senses that you lack - the illusion would be unbelieveable.

absolutely, whether in hero or other systems, the accuracy of senses and senses provided matters. Just like an IMAGE without sound can be identified as "something is unusual, he isn't making noise" so can a mental illusion of someone which doesn't smell right" to the guy with the super sniffer.

 

I give bonuses to breakout (and perception rolls for images) for significant gaps in the senses covered.

 

KirillianMaster (who has a magnetic vision enhanced sense) is subject to a mental illusion of Electonica, whom he has never met, and 'fills in' a Kirillian Aura for her.

 

Later on he meets the real Electronica, but assumes that she is a fake as her Aura is all wrong....

 

That would be OK if it was an intentional misdirection, but an unintentional one seems to be penalising KirillianMaster for having an enhanced sense...

one more common imx might well be the enchanced smell and tracking scent... if your mind continually makes up the scents for you, then the possibility of misinformation gained by having a sense is high.

 

pay more.. get hosed?

OTOH, adding mind control or telepathy into the mix would really firm up the illusion.

or use the trigger model and buy a limited sense just to provide details.

Perhaps what MI does is NOT fill in the gaps, but supresses your ability to spot them. I'd probably be happy enough with that interpretation.

 

This would certainly explain why it is easier to overlay an illusion on reality than completely create a new reality for the target. It would also limit the way in which you can apply your powers. I mean, if a character has a Psych Lim (fear of spiders - total breakdown) I'd not be that happy triggering it with a 'greatest fear' illusion, but more than happy if the Illusionist - whether accidentally or on purpose - created a spider illusion.

i really do not see any merit in rethinking "what the power does" in order to make the mechanics happy. I much prefer having the mechanics make me happy and altering them if need be.

 

but the net result i want is to have the illusionist and his input be the driving force behind what the victim perieves and to have more detail and more efort from the illusionist BENEFIT him not hurt him. So the option you describe here, where the illusionist provides the details, is OK for my purposes, just not necessary for active play imo.

 

A 'Greatest Fear' power should probably be a combination of a very specialised telepathic attack linked to the mental illusion. At least in my 'reality'.

I agree a form of detect greatest fear whether telepathy or an actual detect would be appropriate.

The point at the heart of it though is that it does not matter - I can assume the target fills in gaps - or that he doesn't - and use the same mechanics in any event.

i agree that it can be played and played effectively IMo in two very different ways...

 

you can assume the illusionist provides the details AND sees/knows what the illusion is... that works.

you can assume the victim provides the details and the illusionist doesn't know what the illusion is... and that works.

 

i think changing either half of those two crates problems... serious ones... in practice.

 

but for me, the former rewards the extra effort and attention to detail of the illusionist player... while the second punishes him for the same since the best he can do is match the victim's expectations and th power does that for him.

 

i prefer the former.

It is a matter of style and choice rather than Holy Writ, and so long as you are consistent, I don't think it matters that much.

 

I agree... which is why i found "hobbled" and "useless" comments a bit surprising.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

Hugh, the same wahy we handle a 10 pre player whose character has 30 pre and seduction 18-.

the exact same way we handle a 10 int player without even high school science whose character has a 30 int and physics 18-.

the exact same way we handle a very sociable player with good personal skills when they run a character with low pre and no social skills or even disads.

the exact same way we handle a player with little to no tactical ability who is playing a character with tactics 18-.

 

the Gm serves as the intermediary between the player's stated intents and the characters net results using the character traits and such as a determiner and the player's expressed intents as the guide, but not the detail.

 

the issue of "player smarts" vs "character smarts" applies in most areas of decision making in an RPG. When the player enters the fight with his tactics 18- guy, I dont tell him "dont tell me what you want to do, your character knows what to do, just sit back and let his powers run the character." I don't wait anxiously for him to make a slip up in his description and then pounce with "well, that was a mistake! the enemy gets a bonus now." but instead when he suggests a move that is a clear error i have him roll and likely make suggestions for why that would be a problem.

 

Which approach do you take when less tactically inclined PLAYERS provide tactical decisions? Do you take the mental ilusion approach and use their choices as the reason their efforts fail? or do you have their character's stats play a role and then as Gm either point out "your character would know..." or maybe even just (i do this sometimes) presume their character is making better of it?

 

i mean, hey, if its unfair to have the illusionist make decisions on his illusion details, and itsa fair to let the power do it for him, why have the character with tactics 15 be under player control during a fight at all? Why not just rule: "your tactics roll lets your character fight well, so he is what happens?"

 

thats what happens when we let the details go to the power to be fair to the player who has little attention to detail.

 

which is btw, my main point... just as it would be NO FUN for some to have their combat taken away as "your character knows what to do" (or put into the "you can speak up but it will be used to screw you" bin) then equally so IMX for illusionist players is it NO FUN to have the details of the illusions and those decisions taken away (or put into the "you can speak up but it will be used to screw you" bin)

 

 

 

For those who are of the "The player has to describe the illusion that his character is setting up", how do you deal with the fact that a 10 INT player may not be as sharp at capturing all the details, and avoiding in congruities, as the 30 INT Mentalist with 12d6 of mental illusions?

 

A player whose character can track by scent doesn't have to close his eyes and find his way to one of the other players, guided solely by after shave.

 

A player whose character has a 35 DEX and Acrobatics at a 21- isn't required to demonstrate how his character tumbles through a crowd of agents, leaps onto the hood of a car and uses it for spring to leap over a nearby brick wall.

 

A player with a character who has +30 ED and 3/4 Damage Reduction vs Fire doesn't need to shove his hand into a bonfire to simulate his character's abilities.

 

By the same token, a 30 INT illusionist should not be restricted to his player's ability to capture fine detail, nor should a 30 PRE character with Oratory 21- be constrained to his player's stuttering monotone.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

For those who are of the "The player has to describe the illusion that his character is setting up"' date=' how do you deal with the fact that a 10 INT player may not be as sharp at capturing all the details, and avoiding in congruities, as the 30 INT Mentalist with 12d6 of mental illusions?[/quote']

 

Well we could assume that the power to create an illusion is paid for by points and is not a direct function of the imaginative abilities of the illusionist. Indeed, INT does not model imagination in any event. Are great artists wildly intelligent? Not many of them

 

A player whose character can track by scent doesn't have to close his eyes and find his way to one of the other players' date=' guided solely by after shave.[/quote']

 

No, but MI might supress a character's subconscious reliance on that sense. As I said, i'd probably give bonuses to break out for significant sense differences.

 

A player whose character has a 35 DEX and Acrobatics at a 21- isn't required to demonstrate how his character tumbles through a crowd of agents, leaps onto the hood of a car and uses it for spring to leap over a nearby brick wall.

 

A player with a character who has +30 ED and 3/4 Damage Reduction vs Fire doesn't need to shove his hand into a bonfire to simulate his character's abilities.

 

By the same token, a 30 INT illusionist should not be restricted to his player's ability to capture fine detail, nor should a 30 PRE character with Oratory 21- be constrained to his player's stuttering monotone.

 

Not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting that a mental illusionist can make an illusion of anything he likes, but it has to be something within his experience, as a default. If you don't know what your target's wife looks like, don't make an illusion of her - have some other generic DID. It is not rocket science.

 

The great orator is only using what he knows: we don't impute the ability to obtain knowledge with that skill. The words can be carefully chosen to stir almost anyone - but if you say the wrong thing you are going to wind up some members of the crowd, even if you get most of them.

 

Likewise the great orator cannot give a talk on nuclear physics to a bunch of nuclear physicists just because they know the science, if he doesn't. He can entertain them, but he's not going to be doing it with cutting edge physics.

 

Likewise the Illusionist can fool a target into thinking that there is a woman about to be crushed by a falling building. He can't make the target thing that his wife is about to be crushed, unless he knows his subject matter.

[incrdbil]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

I am saying that they should be purchased with the ability to determine this.

 

 

Well, you may feel that way, and increase the cost of mental illusions as you see fit.

 

I think mental illusions as you prefer them should be built as a limited version to reflect its need fo foir exhaustive player research. First, I'd remove the ability to function without direction (does not continue working when mentalist is stunned) at -1/2, then add another 1/2 limitation for does not draw upon victims mind for details. (it may even be a -3/4th limitation, or you could call it a 1/4th if the player routinely telepathicly scrutinizes a targets mind in advance).

 

On the bright side, this makes it cheaper enough to afford the area effect illusions that are such a pain to do.

[incrdbil]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

which is btw, my main point... just as it would be NO FUN for some to have their combat taken away as "your character knows what to do" (or put into the "you can speak up but it will be used to screw you" bin) then equally so IMX for illusionist players is it NO FUN to have the details of the illusions and those decisions taken away (or put into the "you can speak up but it will be used to screw you" bin)

 

Ok, where is this supposed example of players being punished for speaking up crap coming from. If a player specifies certain details of the illusion, they of course will be in there, and any details he doesnt specify (color of the sky. smell in the air. what bubblegum flavor the character tatste from the illusionary candy machine)--its not fun having to write up a 12 page description of an illusion of moderate complexity. Decisiosn aren't 'taken away' if the character actually makes him.

 

And he specifies wrong details..well, by your own thinking, that illusion deserves to fall apart, so how is this suddenly being used to screw the player?

 

The less he specifies, the less chance he has of getting a positive modifer by the GM, or the greater chance he has of the detail being filled in causing the player to get a better breakout roll.

 

again, this is a pretty obvious issue; the power has to owrk the way I'm describing as written--anythign as you have described is a greatly different, and weaker power.

 

 

There some telapathic content in this--mental illusion doesnt require verbal communication, or that the attacker and victim remotely speak the same language or share a common frame of reference. From the requirements to maintain end expenditure, or keeping the slot active, and the ability to still keep going even after the mentalist drops, we see the illusion is self sustaining without any input of any kind from the illusionist--meaning the input, the place it is being sustained is in the victims own mind. If mental illusiosn stopped the moment end was no longer paid by default, or when the illusionist was stunned, or of there was one tiny mention of any common language, or requirement for knowledge in the description of significance, there might be more to talk about, but there isn't.

 

What you seem to be using with players is your version of mental ilusion, which may be fine, but it should be explained as a house rule, or given a limitation to reflect its reduced utility in comparison to other powers.

 

 

 

It doesnt make it a tool of lesser players, or a crutch, or any of the other less than positive inferences you've been making--its a way of making the power work, represent staples of its functions in multiple genres without requiring odious labor.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

 

Ok, where is this supposed example of players being punished for speaking up crap coming from.

see the post above where wylodmayer lists multiple reasons why an illusion drawing details from the victims mind would have inconsistencies, and every one is a case where the detail for the inconsistency is not drawn from the victims mind but is a detail provided by the illusionist.

 

if all the details i do not provide as the illusionist come from the victim's mind then the details which can cause inconsistencies are the ones i give. that makes it in my best interest to give as little as possible as any detail i provide can be an inconsistency while those drawn from hismind will be as appropriate as they can be.

 

this assumes the gm is not going to further screw you by saying details you did not choose also give the guy chances for breakout.

 

If a player specifies certain details of the illusion, they of course will be in there, and any details he doesnt specify (color of the sky. smell in the air. what bubblegum flavor the character tatste from the illusionary candy machine)--its not fun having to write up a 12 page description of an illusion of moderate complexity. Decisiosn aren't 'taken away' if the character actually makes him.

 

And he specifies wrong details..well, by your own thinking, that illusion deserves to fall apart, so how is this suddenly being used to screw the player?

first no one said provide 12 page detailed write ups. so i wont bother with that straw.

 

second, if the details from the victim wont be used as "fodder for breakout", ie the gm wont be chosing to decide to hose the player with detail the player didn't even choose, then the only details left to hose the player and force extra rolls or bonuses are those from his details.

 

that means its in his best interest to provide as little detail as possible... since his are the only ones which can be inconsistencies.

 

that means the player who provides more info and detail is more at risk for failure, while the player who does less and tries to give as little detail as possible gets more... thats hosing the player in my book.

 

 

The less he specifies, the less chance he has of getting a positive modifer by the GM, or the greater chance he has of the detail being filled in causing the player to get a better breakout roll.

 

what psoitive effects? how does any trait i describe get me more than what the victim will fill in? I as the illusionist dont have more knowledge of what he expects than his own mind. the best most expected things least likely to cause him to go "thats wrong" are the details he fills in, not any that i provide.

 

 

or are you somehow assuming the illusionst knows more about the characters belief and perceptions and expectations than that character does himself?

 

 

 

again, this is a pretty obvious issue; the power has to owrk the way I'm describing as written--anythign as you have described is a greatly different, and weaker power.

clearly you believe that. imo the power as you describe is an easier power, one benefitting less from player effort, and even contrary towards more player/character effort.

There some telapathic content in this--mental illusion doesnt require verbal communication, or that the attacker and victim remotely speak the same language or share a common frame of reference. From the requirements to maintain end expenditure, or keeping the slot active, and the ability to still keep going even after the mentalist drops, we see the illusion is self sustaining without any input of any kind from the illusionist--meaning the input, the place it is being sustained is in the victims own mind. If mental illusiosn stopped the moment end was no longer paid by default, or when the illusionist was stunned, or of there was one tiny mention of any common language, or requirement for knowledge in the description of significance, there might be more to talk about, but there isn't.

is anyone suggesting the illusion stops dead when the illusionst stops paying end or is knocked out except for you?

 

nope?

 

is anyone suggesting there is no telepathic linkat all or a language requirement other than you? i know i didn't.

 

so you are arguing with yourself in this section?

 

ok, dont let me interrupt. let me know which of you wins.

What you seem to be using with players is your version of mental ilusion, which may be fine, but it should be explained as a house rule, or given a limitation to reflect its reduced utility in comparison to other powers.

again since i never suggeste deither of those happen, you seem to just be making stuff up about what i am doing.

 

i wil leave you to work that out yourself.

It doesnt make it a tool of lesser players, or a crutch, or any of the other less than positive inferences you've been making--its a way of making the power work, represent staples of its functions in multiple genres without requiring odious labor.

 

imo letting the illusion provide details from the victims mind, making the details provided by the illusionist the sources of inconsistency, and so on is making the power easier, more fire and forget and is an active disincentive towards the illusionist taking the more active roll and determining more details himself since his choices will by definition be at best on par with the details from the victim himself... unless the gm assumes to go even further and also have details the illusionist doesn't choose but which come from the GMs decision of "the victims mind" produce the same inconsistencies the victim uses to realize "hey this is wrong."

 

i much prefer the case where the details provided by the illusionist are potentially beneficial, and that really doesn't happen if the victims mind is the default provider.

 

its not weaker or stronger either way, tho some people keep insisting so and even going so far as to use terms hyperbole like useless or hobbling.

 

it is simpler to use, and IMO less fun for the type of people i see choosing to play illusionists mostly, who go in to that for the "see my clever choices and details pay off".

 

all imo and imx...

 

 

do you assume the illusionist knows more than the victim about the ife or loved one and thus the illusionist can somehow provide a detail that is more real than the ones the victim can provide for himself and so you somehow see the illusionist providing more detail instead of letting the victim's own mind do so as a positive bonus... enough to outweigh the chance of getting something wrong or the guy not having a wife, or the wife being his costumed teammate etc and all the inconsistency examples we have been barraged with on this thread?

 

if so, thats where we differ.