Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

[incrdbil]

Mental illusions are referred to giving the target extra breakout rolls if the illusion acts in a way counter to what the target suggests.

 

If an illusionist wants to create an illusion that a subjects best friend or wife is laying dead before them..does the illusionist have to know who that is? Or would he simply frame the illusion as 'the spouse or most beloved person you know lays dead before you"?

 

Since illusions can continue without the illusionist being conscious, my thought is the illusion is created from knowledge from the subjects mind--ie, if you create an illusion of the targets best friend being dead, you don't need to know just who that is--the target supplies that own information to the illusion. If so..how does an illusion ever act contrary to what the target expects..unless the illusionist specifically commands it so?

 

(For example, the illusionist creates an illusion of the targets faithful, loyal wife working at a strip club. the target knows of his wifes strict morals, and thus finds this hard to believe--thus the illusion version of his wife never truly can act as his wife without violating the illusion).

 

But outside of these accidental conflicts, it seems you wont have an illusion acting unbelievably if the illusionist is careful in his setup.

 

Which does seem to suggest that mental illusions have an automatic telepathic component--you need not speak or send any command to the target, after all. So would a non telepathic mental illusion, that does not draw from the targets knowledge, and must be verbally spoken, rate a -1/2, or -3/4th limitation? It would probably have the -1/2 for stopping if the mentalist is stunned or knocked out as well.

 

 

One more thought--notice how Psychological disadvantages seem to have an advantageous benefit when it comes to mind control? I mean, 'hates his enemy, Mr X." Makes any mind control to do Mr X's bidding far more difficult. Anyone use a house rule that replaces the section on 'violating psychological limitations) with 'violating the established personality of the character'? I dont see why those who chose not to take statted out psych disads should be in some cases more vulnerable to a mind control, or not have the same breakout chances for characteristics they have roleplayed. But I could see this being carried to an extreme to say every Mc strongly violates the characters deeply held beliefs.

 

But then, if the mind control has already taken the modifiers for doing something the character wouldn't like to do should they get these extra breakout attempts and modifiers at all?

[OddHat]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

I agree with much of the above, so I'll just add my $0.02.

 

Yup. Mental Illusions has a built in, projection only aspect. You don't need to verbally describe the illusion, and you don't need to know exactly what your target is seeing. Powers like showing a target his ultimate fear or desire as described in the Ultimate Mentalist and the USPD1&2 back this view. I generally rule that a simple verbal description by the player is all that's required; the target fills in the gaps.

 

I also rule that the projector has no control over the Illusion unless he pays END every phase; after that, the target is directing the show on his own.

 

A Mental Illusionist who had to describing the illusion's actions verbally is pretty much stuck with the Incantations limit, and follows the rules accordingly. The target gets no special bonuses to breakout rolls for this, any more than the target of a Mind Controller gets any special bonuses to breakout rolls just because the Mind Controller happens to be delivering commands verbally.

 

I don't mind psych limits giving bonuses to breakout rolls in the right circumstances, so long as they give penalties at other times. By default in my campaigns, I rule that the victim of most continuing Mental Powers (Telepathy, Mind Control, Mental Illusions) isn't consciously aware of what's going on until he makes a breakout roll; otherwise Mind Control and Mental Illusions in particular are somewhat gimped. The character with Berserk when Mind Controlled isn't going to freak out until the Mind Control fails, and the guy who Hates Doktor Mentallo is only going to get a bonus to resist if Doktor Mentallo is foolish enough to order him to "Protect Me" rather than, say, "Face me like a man, bare fisted and with both our force fields down."

 

Generally, more subtle commands and illusions are, by the rules, considerably more effective than major reality re-writes.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

So, in your view, would an AOE mental illusion show each person a different thing then, drawing the bits from their individual minds?

 

Obviously, if so, the inconsistencies could lead to extra breakout rolls.

 

OTOH if not then you run the problem of mental illusions playing the role of super-fact finder.

 

The way i have tended to run mental illusions is what you see is determined by the illusionist and he cannot gain info such as your worst fear", "your best friend" or "your secret ID" for free just by having this power. If he wants to use those things against you, he has to actually gain your info thru some means and then deliberately work it into his illusions, albeit, with likely a bonus from doing so. A conservative approach to be sure, but as soon as i start letting personal info become sfx, said info becomes IMo too freely usable. I know my PCs would be upset if some villain kicked in an AOE MIll and their secret IDs got outed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

Mental illusions are referred to giving the target extra breakout rolls if the illusion acts in a way counter to what the target suggests.

 

If an illusionist wants to create an illusion that a subjects best friend or wife is laying dead before them..does the illusionist have to know who that is? Or would he simply frame the illusion as 'the spouse or most beloved person you know lays dead before you"?

 

Since illusions can continue without the illusionist being conscious, my thought is the illusion is created from knowledge from the subjects mind--ie, if you create an illusion of the targets best friend being dead, you don't need to know just who that is--the target supplies that own information to the illusion. If so..how does an illusion ever act contrary to what the target expects..unless the illusionist specifically commands it so?

 

(For example, the illusionist creates an illusion of the targets faithful, loyal wife working at a strip club. the target knows of his wifes strict morals, and thus finds this hard to believe--thus the illusion version of his wife never truly can act as his wife without violating the illusion).

 

I'm inclined to say the target fills in the gaps, and the illusionist has now way of knowing how, short of using another power (telepathy, perhaps) to determine what the target is actually seeing. This seems consistent with a lot of comic book and other genre uses of MI - the hero sees some discrepancy in the illusion which causes him to realize he's being tricked (ie making a breakout roll with a bonus). Stargate: Atlantis had an episode where the characters were trapped in mental illusions, and one character was able to break the effect because many of the people in his "dream world" were dead in reality.

 

One more thought--notice how Psychological disadvantages seem to have an advantageous benefit when it comes to mind control? I mean' date=' 'hates his enemy, Mr X." Makes any mind control to do Mr X's bidding far more difficult. Anyone use a house rule that replaces the section on 'violating psychological limitations) with 'violating the established personality of the character'? I dont see why those who chose not to take statted out psych disads should be in some cases more vulnerable to a mind control, or not have the same breakout chances for characteristics they have roleplayed. But I could see this being carried to an extreme to say every Mc strongly violates the characters deeply held beliefs.[/quote']

 

I'd view Psych Lim as shorthand for Personality. However, this is a two edged sword. He "hates Mr. X", so protecting him is something he's very opposed to. On the other hand, it should be a lot easier to override his Code vs Killing if I command him to "Kill Mr. X", especially if I've already implanted a Mental Illusion that Mr. X threatens his wife, to whom he is Devoted.

 

But then' date=' if the mind control has already taken the modifiers for doing something the character wouldn't like to do should they get these extra breakout attempts and modifiers at all?[/quote']

 

There's a balancing act here. A typical character would be opposed to standing stock still in combat. An Overconfident one might be easier to persuade. One who Fears Physical Harm would be more difficult. I'm inclined to apply the extra modifiers only if we've already hit Violently Opposed, and the limitations should make him even more Violently Opposed.

[OddHat]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

So' date=' in your view, would an AOE mental illusion show each person a different thing then, drawing the bits from their individual minds?[/quote']

 

Yes, noting that this is how I play it and not an official ruling.

 

Obviously, if so, the inconsistencies could lead to extra breakout rolls.

 

Sure, if characters think to communicate exactly what they're seeing in enough detail to matter. "That's Doctor Destroyer, and he's wearing a red cloak with gold piping, standing somewhat to the left of the little blonde girl he's holding hostage!" versus "It's Doctor Destroyer, and he has a hostage!"

 

Subtler AOE Mental Illusions become even more desirable here.

 

OTOH if not then you run the problem of mental illusions playing the role of super-fact finder.

 

As far as I know, officially there's no feedback to the mentalist as to exactly what the target is seeing. If he sends an image of "The Target's Worst Fear", he has no way of knowing what that fear is unless he has telepathy (which he could have used to find the fear anyway) or the target starts narrating. The mentalist might send an image of "Your loved one is about to be hit by a bus", but that doesn't tell him anything about your loved one. If your loved one couldn't logically be in such danger, a bonus to the breakout roll is appropriate ("Mom! But she died more than fifty years ago!?"). Another reason why subtler use of Mental Illusions is probably a better choice.

 

as soon as i start letting personal info become sfx, said info becomes IMo too freely usable. I know my PCs would be upset if some villain kicked in an AOE MIll and their secret IDs got outed.

 

I agree that would be abusive, and I wouldn't allow it either. I just haven't seen anything official in 5thER to make me think Mental Illusions allow you to see what your target is perceiving. I'll ask Steve Long about it.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

Well two things this brings up to me are...

 

If the illusionist has no idea of what the victim is seeing then he has a dickens of a time getting what i consider reasonable direction out of his illusions. I have had clever players use their illusions of villains to have them do things like threaten hostages and start buildings collapsing (seemingly) and so forth... all of which becomes quite difficult if the "what the victim is percieving" is a black box to you.

 

the issue about figuring out secret ids and such was more specifically for the AOE if everyone got the same image... have an illusion of "your secret id walks up" aoe, target the villain, and have a buddy within radius and ask later... so what did you see. or somesuch.

 

the other issue is, if the illusion doesn't do the work for you automatically deciphering who he is or what he fears, then it rewards the player who takes the time and has his character do work and research to figure out "hey, the good doctor is avoiding water..." and work that deliberately into his illusions. I can now reward that player for his character's effort and not just let them muscle it in with "the power figures it out for me".

 

but certainly, it an work either way, i just prefer to have my players have more control and that requires them to be able to see what the illusion they are creating is and what it is doing, otherwise its like a summoning they dont control and... imx... the guys who run illusionists do so for the thrill of being clever with it... not for the "power does it for me".

 

IMX the PDIFM guys play blasters, not illusionists

[OddHat]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

If the illusionist has no idea of what the victim is seeing then he has a dickens of a time getting what i consider reasonable direction out of his illusions. I have had clever players use their illusions of villains to have them do things like threaten hostages and start buildings collapsing (seemingly) and so forth... all of which becomes quite difficult if the "what the victim is percieving" is a black box to you.

 

I'd say that there are degrees of control. If you're paying END every phase, you can certainly control your illusion to the extent of "Now the villain takes that girl hostage...now he lets her go." You don't know exactly how this would look from the point of view of the target, but you've paid the points and the END to have the illusion function as you wish. If the illusionary villain pulls off the mask of the hero, the Illusionist does not get to see the heroes unmasked face. If you're not paying END every phase, then the illusion will continue down whatever path you set it on when you hit the target with it, and the illusionist can't make additional changes; the Target who thinks he has been wrapped in chains continues to think that until he makes his breakout roll or convinces himself he escaped through some other means.

 

the other issue is, if the illusion doesn't do the work for you automatically deciphering who he is or what he fears, then it rewards the player who takes the time and has his character do work and research to figure out "hey, the good doctor is avoiding water..." and work that deliberately into his illusions. I can now reward that player for his character's effort and not just let them muscle it in with "the power figures it out for me".

 

I can see that point of view. Personally, I might grant a character who knows that Doctor Fishbinder is afraid of fire a bonus 2d6 or so effect for the time he put into research, but not rule out the Scarecrows ability to hit people with their greatest fear even if he doesn't know it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

Since illusions can continue without the illusionist being conscious, my thought is the illusion is created from knowledge from the subjects mind--ie, if you create an illusion of the targets best friend being dead, you don't need to know just who that is--the target supplies that own information to the illusion. If so..how does an illusion ever act contrary to what the target expects..unless the illusionist specifically commands it so?

 

(For example, the illusionist creates an illusion of the targets faithful, loyal wife working at a strip club. the target knows of his wifes strict morals, and thus finds this hard to believe--thus the illusion version of his wife never truly can act as his wife without violating the illusion).

 

That's a good example of how the illusion could be contrary. Anything the illusionist doesn't know about the subject of the illusion and the target can spoil the illusion. For example if the illusionist attacks the target with the illusion his spouse was just grabbed as a hostage out of the crowd, but his wife is actually a member of team standing next to him. The illusionist doesn't know this (she's in costume, or he just doesn't know these two are married). Of course, if the illusionist does know this, he could issue a slightly different illusion: the hostage is the real wife & his partner is an imposer.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

I'd say that there are degrees of control. If you're paying END every phase, you can certainly control your illusion to the extent of "Now the villain takes that girl hostage...now he lets her go." You don't know exactly how this would look from the point of view of the target, but you've paid the points and the END to have the illusion function as you wish.

IMX the people who want to play illusionists want to be clever in directing andconctrolling their illusions. so having as a default the surrender control of the illusion would make that power more or less not what they wanted. the fire and forget guys play blasters or bricks not illusionists.

 

I can see that point of view. Personally, I might grant a character who knows that Doctor Fishbinder is afraid of fire a bonus 2d6 or so effect for the time he put into research, but not rule out the Scarecrows ability to hit people with their greatest fear even if he doesn't know it.

 

i dont think this is an all or nothing choice. If you want the ability to detect someone's greatest fear, buy that ability. If you want it shackled to only feed your illusions ability, thats a good -1 or such lim on it.

 

I don't see any justification for giving you bonus for doing what you r power does automatically... so if the default was "the power did the work" then you dont get a bonus... but if the power relies on what you know, then i give a bonus to it to reflect the better knowledge you have. if scarecrows gas makes you see your worst fear, even if screcrow is miles away, then you dont get a bonus effect when scarecrow knows that fear is a certain country music singer because scarecrow isb't making the determination of what you see. IMO at least.st let the power do the thinking for me" i will consider the need for a change.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

That's a good example of how the illusion could be contrary. Anything the illusionist doesn't know about the subject of the illusion and the target can spoil the illusion. For example if the illusionist attacks the target with the illusion his spouse was just grabbed as a hostage out of the crowd' date=' but his wife is actually a member of team standing next to him. The illusionist doesn't know this (she's in costume, or he just doesn't know these two are married). Of course, if the illusionist does know this, he could issue a slightly different illusion: the hostage is the real wife & his partner is an imposer.[/quote']

 

well the question becomes what was this power?

 

Did the power gt originally built with a -x only to attack foe's wife" lim?

 

If not then did the illusionist specifically decide to have the illusion create "your wife" not knowing who the wife was or maybe even if the guy had a wife?

 

none of the illusionist players i have ever had would try such an uninformed specificity... for the very reason that they do not know enough to pull it off, realize this, and do not try and just have the power do thieir thinking for them?

 

then again when my blasters fire their electric beams into crowds, they dont say "i target his wife" and hope that not only is she there but that the beam finds her as opposed to scenery with legs number 12.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

I prefer to require that the Illusionist knows what the target is seeing, so harking back to the original question, yes, generally the illusionist will have to know what the wife looks like. Telepathy is useful for that, whhich is why a mentalist with MI and telepathy is more effective than one with just MI.

 

Otherwise you find people always doing illusions of 'the most frightening thing you can imagine' or 'a threatened DNPC'.

 

I think not.

[OddHat]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

As per Steve Long's answer, p.35 of the Ultimate Mentalist, right column, Perception of the Illusion. A character does not need specific knowledge of the illusion he is creating; he describes it, and if the roll is high enough the target perceives it, using his own knowledge to fill in the blanks. It does not matter if the Illusionist doesn't know what BLANK looks, sounds, smells or tastes like; the target will perceive an illusion that is convincing to him, depending on the level of effect needed. The GM can countermand that, but it is the by the book default.

 

As to giving a bonus based on research, I might do so. Telling Superdave "You see your greatest fear" is a valid illusion as per the rules, but doing a telepathic scan to learn that Superdave's greatest fear is the element Inconcievabilium could lead to a more specific and effective "You see that this object I'm holding is actually made of Inconcievabillium, your one weakness, and you are powerless against it!"

 

Whether or not the Illusionist can actually see what the target is seeing is subject to a lot of GM control as per the rules in UM. The last paragraph on p.35 suggests that if the illusionist is feeding END to the illusion phase by phase he can perceive it, but not if the illusion is one shot or No Conscious Control; as that does open up the possibility of using Mental Illusions where Telepathy should be used instead, I'd stick to my own GMs instincts and say that no, the Illusionist doesn't know exactly what the target sees, though he does know the general gist of it in the case of a continuing attack.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

The illusion that is created can continue without the control of the illusionist, but only does what it is programmed to do, although the programming can be pretty sophisticated. If you want the illusion to react to the target properly then it has to be particlly controlled by the target, and Mind Control is good for that.

 

A mentalist with a complete set of powers is far more effective than a character with more points invested in a single power.

 

The genres are full of examples of illusions failing because the illusionist got some detail wrong - which would not happen if the illusion was created from the target's expectations.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

As per Steve Long's answer, p.35 of the Ultimate Mentalist, right column, Perception of the Illusion. A character does not need specific knowledge of the illusion he is creating; he describes it, and if the roll is high enough the target perceives it, using his own knowledge to fill in the blanks. It does not matter if the Illusionist doesn't know what BLANK looks, sounds, smells or tastes like; the target will perceive an illusion that is convincing to him, depending on the level of effect needed. The GM can countermand that, but it is the by the book default.

 

As to giving a bonus based on research, I might do so. Telling Superdave "You see your greatest fear" is a valid illusion as per the rules, but doing a telepathic scan to learn that Superdave's greatest fear is the element Inconcievabilium could lead to a more specific and effective "You see that this object I'm holding is actually made of Inconcievabillium, your one weakness, and you are powerless against it!"

 

Whether or not the Illusionist can actually see what the target is seeing is subject to a lot of GM control as per the rules in UM. The last paragraph on p.35 suggests that if the illusionist is feeding END to the illusion phase by phase he can perceive it, but not if the illusion is one shot or No Conscious Control; as that does open up the possibility of using Mental Illusions where Telepathy should be used instead, I'd stick to my own GMs instincts and say that no, the Illusionist doesn't know exactly what the target sees, though he does know the general gist of it in the case of a continuing attack.

 

I respectfully disagree with Mr Long as to the best way to do it.

 

The illusionist has to know the illusion to my way of thinking, either through research or through other mental powers. The illusionist gets NO clue as to what the target is seeing from the use of MI alone - he is seeing what he is told to see, specifically. Otherwise we get 'a mental illusion of someone you care about enough to want to breal off this combat and rescue and who could reasonably be present here and now, in danger, over there....'

[OddHat]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

The illusion that is created can continue without the control of the illusionist' date=' but only does what it is programmed to do, although the programming can be pretty sophisticated. If you want the illusion to react to the target properly then it has to be particlly controlled by the target, and Mind Control is good for that.[/quote']

 

By the rules in Ultimate Mentalist, p.32-38, not exactly. You can create a Mental Illusion that "You're at home, having a nice morning" and leave it at that. Until the target breaks free, his own memories and expectations will do the rest, from allowing him to have a cup of imaginary coffee to allowing him to head to an imaginary local diner and chat up an imaginary waitress. The Illusionist doesn't control, or have to control, any of that, and his failure to have created a tighter illusion might (GM's call) help the target break free, but by the book he doesn't need special knowledge to pull it off.

 

 

A mentalist with a complete set of powers is far more effective than a character with more points invested in a single power.

 

The genres are full of examples of illusions failing because the illusionist got some detail wrong - which would not happen if the illusion was created from the target's expectations.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

By the rules in Ultimate Mentalist, p.32-38, not exactly. You can create a Mental Illusion that "You're at home, having a nice morning" and leave it at that. Until the target breaks free, his own memories and expectations will do the rest, from allowing him to have a cup of imaginary coffee to allowing him to head to an imaginary local diner and chat up an imaginary waitress. The Illusionist doesn't control, or have to control, any of that, and his failure to have created a tighter illusion might (GM's call) help the target break free, but by the book he doesn't need special knowledge to pull it off.

 

 

 

 

The way I see it is this: if you are feeding in END, you are constantly controlling the illusion, so it gets no easier to break out as the level of reality is being maintained. if you just pop it in there and go, it becomes increasingly realistic, or starts to loop, and so the breakout roll gets easier as time goes by.

 

Either way the mechanics are the same.

[OddHat]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

I respectfully disagree with Mr Long as to the best way to do it.

 

The illusionist has to know the illusion to my way of thinking, either through research or through other mental powers. The illusionist gets NO clue as to what the target is seeing from the use of MI alone - he is seeing what he is told to see, specifically. Otherwise we get 'a mental illusion of someone you care about enough to want to breal off this combat and rescue and who could reasonably be present here and now, in danger, over there....'

As I said in my post, I'm not comfortable with letting MI give much if any feedback myself. Let the character by Telepathy if he wants to look for secrets. That said, I approve of letting the target's own mind fill in the blanks. Not allowing that makes any character with enhanced senses immune to Mental Illusions by anyone without the same senses and nullifies comic book standards like Fear Gas or the Ultimate Desire Trap, as well as raising questions on issues like perspective and memory that are just silly.

[OddHat]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

The way I see it is this: if you are feeding in END, you are constantly controlling the illusion, so it gets no easier to break out as the level of reality is being maintained. if you just pop it in there and go, it becomes increasingly realistic, or starts to loop, and so the breakout roll gets easier as time goes by.

 

Either way the mechanics are the same.

 

And I agree on this. I'd usually GM it from the point of view that the breakout rolls are getting easier as more and more unlikely elements appear, much like a dream will get more noticeably strange as you're about to wake up.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

well the question becomes what was this power?

 

Did the power gt originally built with a -x only to attack foe's wife" lim?

 

If not then did the illusionist specifically decide to have the illusion create "your wife" not knowing who the wife was or maybe even if the guy had a wife?

 

none of the illusionist players i have ever had would try such an uninformed specificity... for the very reason that they do not know enough to pull it off, realize this, and do not try and just have the power do thieir thinking for them?

True, but players can be weird sometimes. They can jump right into the thick of it, and when you say the strange guy with glowing eyes fires a beam of light out his mouth at them, and they'll just stand there and take the first hit to find out if it's worth dodging later... It's amazing they don't to similar risky stunts with Mental Powers, and stranger the idea should be criticized.

 

then again when my blasters fire their electric beams into crowds, they dont say "i target his wife" and hope that not only is she there but that the beam finds her as opposed to scenery with legs number 12.

 

Of course, this is blatantly ridiculous and entirely inapplicable to the discussion.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

The genres are full of examples of illusions failing because the illusionist got some detail wrong - which would not happen if the illusion was created from the target's expectations.

 

Welcome to the most common SFX for making your Breakout Roll.

[incrdbil]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

Lookin at the rules mechanics though--they suggest that answer of Steves is Essential. Without the target filling in the gaps, mental illusion becomes nigh useless. Mental powers are hobbled greatly enough as they are, but for the mentalist to have to make up every detail..and every wrong detail being a cry from the player 'breakout roll, breakout roll'--who would bother with this power?

 

 

An illusion continues, even if the mentalist is knocked out, or dead, until the target breaks out. The actions, the directions, the reactions to the characters actions towards the illusion continue..and that knowledge has to come from the subjects mind.

 

Specific details the illusionist should not get. He shouldn't know exactly what the subject sees, but enough based on the subjects reactions.

 

Now, if a villian had a linked telepathy (only for subjects thoughts in reaction to illusions) with the mental illusions, this would be a most dangerous villain, who would need no other powers to have his services highly in demand by villains all over the world.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

 

Lookin at the rules mechanics though--they suggest that answer of Steves is Essential. Without the target filling in the gaps, mental illusion becomes nigh useless.

no, not hardly. mental illusions have been used in my games and in others for decades and proven effective without those new rulings by steve.

 

the key is to not take one and not the other.

 

the two issues are first does the illusionist see or know the illusion affecting his victim and the seond is does he provide the details or does his victim.

 

 

 

Mental powers are hobbled greatly enough as they are, but for the mentalist to have to make up every detail..and every wrong detail being a cry from the player 'breakout roll, breakout roll'--who would bother with this power?

 

a player wanting a clever approach power instead of a fire and forget blasr imx...

An illusion continues, even if the mentalist is knocked out, or dead, until the target breaks out. The actions, the directions, the reactions to the characters actions towards the illusion continue..and that knowledge has to come from the subjects mind.

no the details can come from the illusionist and follow that pattern he established when he set up the power. if my illusory fire starts consuming a building and i get Koed it continues doing so, unless i bought the power otherwise, but it likely doesn't expand to other buildings unless i am still in control. thats when the breakout rolls provide bonuses, the longer it runs on automatic the more deviations crop up.

 

if the illusion keeps drawing its info from the victim, why does iit get easier the longer he sees it as real?

 

 

Specific details the illusionist should not get. He shouldn't know exactly what the subject sees, but enough based on the subjects reactions.

imx if the illusionist can see the illusion so that he can control it, the power works fine and is satisfying. it means he cannot just power up "your wife" but he can certainly power up a stranger ora nun or a small child to use as a victim.

 

if he wants to go the extra level of detail and make the hostage he takes someone personal to you, the character needs to acquire that knowledge to use against you. otherwise he is limited to using what he knows. thats where the clever parts start coming in... where research pays off... and so forth.

 

but i think the two questions are linked...

 

if you want to go the route of "illusionist doesn know the illusion he is creating" then you have to also go with "and the victim provides the details" in order for it to work... again not sure why the longer the victim believes the illusion provided with details from his own mind the easier it is to escape. it seems to me the more my own mind provides details the longer i believe the harder it would be to break out... but thats me.

 

ifyou believe the ilusionist is responsible for providing the details and control of the illusion then you also need for him to be able to see the illusion so he can actually direct the iillusion reasonably.

 

imx the latter style of play is what more players who seek to run illusionists prefer and enjoy. they dont go for fire-n-forget style effects but ongoing and evolving ones.

 

but thats all IMO and IMX.

 

others mileage and players will vary. i can certainly imagine some players prefering to have mental illusions which work like energy blasts where they shoot the power and then dont have to sweat the details because the power like eb does the work for them.

[incrdbil]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

no, not hardly. mental illusions have been used in my games and in others for decades and proven effective without those new rulings by steve.

 

A look at the mechanics doesnt seem to make them all that new, but how the power pretty much has to work without being useless

 

a player wanting a clever approach power instead of a fire and forget blasr imx...

 

You call it clever, I call it hobbled.

 

if my illusory fire starts consuming a building and i get Koed it continues doing so, unless i bought the power otherwise, but it likely doesn't expand to other buildings unless i am still in control.

 

If the victism mind doesnt fill in details..it doesnt spread. It just burns in the same spot. Nothign reacts to the victims actions--illusionary doors wont open, the illusionary monster wont react to an attack. Thats an almost imediate collapse of the illusion, not the gradual increasing chance of a break out rol after each time increment (whic after a phase, a turn, gets rather long. If the illusion is still not drawing any detaisl from the mind, after a minute, its sort of hard to see how the victim is still believing the illusion.

So if it does sort of draw off the victims mind to start, it continues to do so--its just the lack of maintenance slowly brings increased opportunities for the victism mind to wake up, as the illusionist isnt holding those perceptions down so tightly.

 

 

if the illusion keeps drawing its info from the victim, why does iit get easier the longer he sees it as real?

 

Again, if end is paid, it doesnt. (and a 0 end, persisant mental illusion certainyl never gets any easier, or a continuing charge type illusion). In fact, for mental illusion affects whose specisl effect isnt another mind imposing the illusion, but a chemical like a hallucinogen..itsobviosu the illusionary detaisl coem from inside the subjects mind, and are filled with what he knows.

 

 

 

if he wants to go the extra level of detail and make the hostage he takes someone personal to you, the character needs to acquire that knowledge to use against you. otherwise he is limited to using what he knows. thats where the clever parts start coming in... where research pays off... and so forth.

 

Powers shouldnt take research to have their basic effects possible.

 

 

 

again not sure why the longer the victim believes the illusion provided with details from his own mind the easier it is to escape. it seems to me the more my own mind provides details the longer i believe the harder it would be to break out... but thats me.

 

without the continuous editing or control by the mentalist who just lets the illusion go, the mind simply starts to shake things off. After all, the increasing of the breakout roll is purely a function of time at this point--not quality of the illusion.

 

 

 

others mileage and players will vary. i can certainly imagine some players prefering to have mental illusions which work like energy blasts where they shoot the power and then dont have to sweat the details because the power like eb does the work for them.

 

or maybe they expect the power to be effective for what theyy paid for it. You dont have to study a targets armor to know how to get the energy blast to work, after all.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

As implied by an official reply I got from Steve some while back (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1103697#post1103697), the whole point of Mental Illusions is to give the target a subjectively-directed experience. I can give someone the Mental Illusion of his "favorite food" without knowing what it is; likewise, it seems reasonable (and, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, supported by official builds of MenIll) that one can inflict, say, one's "greatest fear."

 

As has been stated also, nowhere is it said that the Illusionist can access (by dint of that power alone) what the target is seeing. However, it's ridiculous to suggest that if someone were to take, say, a Mental Illusions power that created a visible manifestation that everyone could see (a la Dani Moonstar) that it would present an unconscionable threat to Secret IDs and make MenIll "too powerful." Secret IDs are a Disad for a reason. They are vulnerable to, say, N-Ray Vision, which costs far less than MenIll with a visible side effect.

 

MenIll with an AoE would certainly give targets different images for, say, an illusion like "your favorite food," and if they talked about what they saw, they'd get those bonuses to break out - it's a staple of fiction, in fact (bad fiction to be sure, but still).

 

Mental Illusions can behave contrary to expectation in numerous ways, aside from what was just mentioned. If I know my mother is in Tennessee, seeing her here will be contrary to expectation. If I know my girlfriend would never be wearing culottes, seeing her in them would be contrary to expectation. If I am experiencing an illusion of eating steak, and it never seems to run out, that would be contrary to expectation. Etc.

 

Note also - there is ALREADY A POWER for creating objectively detailed illusions: Images. In creating Images, the illusionist must detail what he is creating, and people react to it from there. It doesn't go away just because they don't believe it's real, which might cause them to go back and forth on the real/not real issue several times. There's no reason to change Mental Illusions; if you prefer a power where the illusionist has to know everything he's projecting, use images, plain and simple. Otherwise, there's no way to implement such Mental Illusions as "this tastes good to you" unless powers like Telepathy can provide subjective experiences to its users. Besides, each power is meant to be more or less self-contained. If Mental Illusions required Telepathy to be effective, it wouldn't be a power of it's own.

[tesuji]

Re: Some Mental Power thoughts and opinions sought

 

Mental Illusions can behave contrary to expectation in numerous ways, aside from what was just mentioned. If I know my mother is in Tennessee, seeing her here will be contrary to expectation. If I know my girlfriend would never be wearing culottes, seeing her in them would be contrary to expectation. If I am experiencing an illusion of eating steak, and it never seems to run out, that would be contrary to expectation. Etc.

 

Why would your mind provide an image of your mother to the scene when your mind is the one providing the details?

Why would your mind pt your girlfriend into cutoffs when all i said was "he sees his girlfriend" and your mind did the work?

Why would your mind not fill in the details of the steak getting less as it is eaten or maybe a server bringing you a second helping?

 

If the details are drawn from your mind, and not provided by the illusionist, then "inconsistencies" or "growing incongruities" seems to be a rather inconsistent SFX explanation for breakout rolls or the escalation of breakout rolls. You basically lose that notion... and as in the post above, seem forced into some sort of "it just fades over time" as a default.

 

In contrast, its perfectly reasonable to describe the illsionists missing on this ot that due to imperfect knowledge of the subject or lack of attention to detail, he is doing a lot, as time goes on especially since he is not actively forcing the issue... IF THE ILLUSIONIST IS THE ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ILLUSION AND DETAILS.

 

But for me, for my way of thinking, the longer what i see matches with what i know and expect, the longer that what i percieve is drawn from my knowledge for details, from my expectations, then the loner that all is done the less likely i am to break from that reality, not more.

 

But then, its easy for some to jettison or maybe never use the "growing inconsistencies break down the illusion" as sfx for the breakouts just as its preferable for some to just have illusions do the work for them.

 

But IMX the guys who wanted to play illusionists, wanted to do the work, wanted to use the terrain and scenery and such and themselves work the details of their illusions to be "believable" and thus more effective (an approach i see as clever but some see as "hobbled"??) as opposed to just tossing their power paying end and having all that handled by the power.

 

While this approach of letting all that be done by the power without the player having to bother with it certainly makes the power less demanding on the player to use, i dont see that as what the guys playing illusionists were hoping to get into.