Vehicular DEF and Armor

[revaddict]

I'm looking at the rules for vehicular armor in The Ultimate Vehicle, and I don't get something:

 

Generally speaking, a vehicle uses DEF to absorb damage (right?).

 

Now suppose we have a tank built with Armor. Armor is measured in PD or ED, depending on what kind of armor it is.

 

So what happens when you put Armor on a vehicle with an already high DEF? Does the Armor PD stack on top of the DEF? This doesn't seem to be the case based on the description of the M1A1 Abrams tank (p. 51) The description says the M1 has "Heavy Armor Package" for 20 DEF--which is the DEF listed in the vehicle's characteristics.

 

Can anyone help me figure out what I don't get about DEF and Armor?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

DEF and Armor are the same thing. Armor is a resistant physical defense and energy defense value. DEF is just a simplified version for non-characters, with one value standing in for two separate ones.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

The "Heavy Armor Package" applies Hardened to the 20DEF the vehicle has. It's not additional DEF.

[revaddict]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

Okay, so when I build a vehicle that has armor in real life (e.g. a tank, armored car, APC), do I simulate the armor by just jacking up the DEF and not worrying about buying the "Armor" power?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

The only reason to use Armor on a Vehicle is to have different values for rPD and rED. Otherwise use DEF, in the manner and for the reason stated by Captain Obvious.

 

There's a page reference in TUV, but I don't happen to have my copy with me at the moment.

[revaddict]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

Okay, so how do I buy, for example, the Hardened Armor Package listed on the M1 Abrams? It has a cost of 15. It doesn't say anything about the Armor skill in particular, but if I don't buy that skill, what gets "Hardened" and (more to the point) what do I base the math on?

 

I'm using Hero Designer, but in the vehicular format if you buy Armor it still distinguished between PD and ED.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

Okay, so how do I buy, for example, the Hardened Armor Package listed on the M1 Abrams? It has a cost of 15. It doesn't say anything about the Armor skill in particular, but if I don't buy that skill, what gets "Hardened" and (more to the point) what do I base the math on?

 

I'm using Hero Designer, but in the vehicular format if you buy Armor it still distinguished between PD and ED.

 

It is buying Hardened for the Vehicles DEF.

 

In HD under the Vehicle Template if you look at the Characteristics you will see "DEF" - buy that, add Hardened, click on "apply to base Characteristic" and you're done.

 

It's not Armor, it's armor. In HERO be very careful to distinguish between the name of a Power and the title of the Powers SFX (in official HERO books the name of the SFX will be in italics, and is not the Power.

[revaddict]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

It is buying Hardened for the Vehicles DEF.

 

In HD under the Vehicle Template if you look at the Characteristics you will see "DEF" - buy that, add Hardened, click on "apply to base Characteristic" and you're done.

 

It's not Armor, it's armor. In HERO be very careful to distinguish between the name of a Power and the title of the Powers SFX (in official HERO books the name of the SFX will be in italics, and is not the Power.

 

Okay, PLEASE forgive my ignorance here.

 

Yes, I bought lots of DEF for this vehicle under Characteristics. Now I want to harden that DEF.

 

You said add Hardened. How do you add an advantage to a Characteristic? The only "Hardened" I can find is under the Armor power (which doesn't apply), and I don't see any "apply to base Characteristic" (but I do see "Add to Primary value" under the Armor power which, again, doesn't apply).

 

Your patience is greatly appreciated.

[Rapier]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

Okay, PLEASE forgive my ignorance here.

 

Yes, I bought lots of DEF for this vehicle under Characteristics. Now I want to harden that DEF.

 

You said add Hardened. How do you add an advantage to a Characteristic? The only "Hardened" I can find is under the Armor power (which doesn't apply), and I don't see any "apply to base Characteristic" (but I do see "Add to Primary value" under the Armor power which, again, doesn't apply).

 

Your patience is greatly appreciated.

 

Naked Advantage.

 

Add a Naked Hardened and set it to DEF and make sure you jack it up to cover the Active Points spent on DEF. Don't forget that you also have to cover the "free" points. For 15 DEF:

 

Armour: Hardened (+1/4) for up to 45 Active Points of DEF (11 Active Points)

 

Bob's yer uncle!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

Okay, PLEASE forgive my ignorance here.

 

Yes, I bought lots of DEF for this vehicle under Characteristics. Now I want to harden that DEF.

 

You said add Hardened. How do you add an advantage to a Characteristic? The only "Hardened" I can find is under the Armor power (which doesn't apply), and I don't see any "apply to base Characteristic" (but I do see "Add to Primary value" under the Armor power which, again, doesn't apply).

 

Your patience is greatly appreciated.

 

Naked Advantage.

 

Add a Naked Hardened and set it to DEF and make sure you jack it up to cover the Active Points spent on DEF. Don't forget that you also have to cover the "free" points. For 15 DEF:

 

Armour: Hardened (+1/4) for up to 45 Active Points of DEF (11 Active Points)

 

Bob's yer uncle!

 

Naked Advantage works.

 

Or under the Powers List on the Powers Tab you will see "Characteristic" - click that and it expands to show a Vehicle Characterisitcs. Select DEF - add the Hardened Advantage normally like for any Power. Make sure the "Apply To Base Characteristic" check box is selected.

 

If that doesn't clear it up I'll put up screen shots later tonight.

[revaddict]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

Naked Advantage works.

 

Or under the Powers List on the Powers Tab you will see "Characteristic" - click that and it expands to show a Vehicle Characterisitcs. Select DEF - add the Hardened Advantage normally like for any Power. Make sure the "Apply To Base Characteristic" check box is selected.

 

If that doesn't clear it up I'll put up screen shots later tonight.

 

Okay, I think I'm getting warmer.

 

I see that when I try the "Characteristic" route, it actually adds to the DEF (i.e. the description reads "+14 DEF") which I think is to be understood in addition to the vehicle's inherent DEF, whereas the "Naked Modifier" route gets me every point of extant DEF Hardened for only 3 pts. (I'm assuming a vehicle with 14 DEF to begin with.)

 

Does this sound right?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

Okay, I think I'm getting warmer.

 

I see that when I try the "Characteristic" route, it actually adds to the DEF (i.e. the description reads "+14 DEF") which I think is to be understood in addition to the vehicle's inherent DEF, whereas the "Naked Modifier" route gets me every point of extant DEF Hardened for only 3 pts. (I'm assuming a vehicle with 14 DEF to begin with.)

 

Does this sound right?

 

Sounds about right I think.

[Rapier]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

Okay, I think I'm getting warmer.

 

I see that when I try the "Characteristic" route, it actually adds to the DEF (i.e. the description reads "+14 DEF") which I think is to be understood in addition to the vehicle's inherent DEF, whereas the "Naked Modifier" route gets me every point of extant DEF Hardened for only 3 pts. (I'm assuming a vehicle with 14 DEF to begin with.)

 

Does this sound right?

 

I think it should come out to 10 points. You have to be real careful with HD in a couple of spots. There is a BIG difference between MP Reserve Only Limitations and MP Slot Limitations etc. You also need to be careful with Naked Modifiers.

 

1. Select Naked Modifier from the Powers List.

2. Click Naked Modifier

3. Select Hardened. Click OK. Click Done.

3 1/2. If you wanted to Limit it (OIF, for example, you use the Add Modifier and NOT Add Naked Modifier).

4. Make Max Base Cost = Active Points (14 DEF x 3 pts per DEF = 42), costs 10 points.

5. Click OK.

6. Bob = Uncle

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

Okay, I think I'm getting warmer.

 

I see that when I try the "Characteristic" route, it actually adds to the DEF (i.e. the description reads "+14 DEF") which I think is to be understood in addition to the vehicle's inherent DEF, whereas the "Naked Modifier" route gets me every point of extant DEF Hardened for only 3 pts. (I'm assuming a vehicle with 14 DEF to begin with.)

 

Does this sound right?

That cost is correct.

 

To do it the "Characteristic" way correctly, hit the "Apply Modifiers To Base Characteristic" box right away. Then add the Hardened Advantage. Don't add any additional DEF in the dialog.

[revaddict]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

That cost is correct.

 

To do it the "Characteristic" way correctly, hit the "Apply Modifiers To Base Characteristic" box right away. Then add the Hardened Advantage. Don't add any additional DEF in the dialog.

 

Okay, I think that answer and all the others have helped.

 

Thanks a lot, everybody!

[Rapier]

Re: Vehicular DEF and Armor

 

That cost is correct.

 

To do it the "Characteristic" way correctly, hit the "Apply Modifiers To Base Characteristic" box right away. Then add the Hardened Advantage. Don't add any additional DEF in the dialog.

 

Hmmm. I had not considered that method. Sweet.