Some improvised weapon help please

[Blue]

I've got a brick in the campaign. Now, I have no problem with figuring out how far a thrown vehicle goes; I actually remembered this and applied the rule appropriately before I even looked it up to make sure I was right.

 

But then the brick in question decided he was going to use a car as a club. How do I go about this? As near as I can tell the following things come into play...

 

1. The survivability of the car. It can only do as much damage as it has DEF + BODY, and in a swing or two is likley to crumble to nothing.
2. The weight of the vehicle. Should I figure out the STR required to lift the vehicle, subtract said STR from the character's STR being applied?
3. Do I add dice for the mass of the vehicle. Hitting with something heavy, like a car, would certainly seem to add more dice.
4. The size of the vehicle. I figure since it's vehicle size, he's really making an area effect attack on an adjacent hex.

 

For my education, here's the scenario. Tell me how it plays out. Let's say it's a 5 DEF, 14 BODY, 2800 kg vehicle. The brick picks it up with his 70 STR and uses it as a weapon on someone in an adjacent hex. If it survives he'd like to swing it again, therefore he holds onto it.

[Chris Goodwin]

The BODY of the car is going to be based in large part on its mass. I'd say DEF+BODY will get you close enough.

[Klytus]

Personally, I've long felt that the object BODY rules are one the major places the HERO system falls appart. The idea that an object can do only as much damage as it has DEF + BODY regardless of who is swinging/throwing it is ludicrous. If I throw a baseball at you, it will hurt. If Nolan Ryan throws it at you, it will hurt more, but if a brick with more STR than the DEF+BODY of the baseball throws it, that baseball will do the same amount of damage, regardless of whether it is thrown by Bulldozer or Grond or even Superman. This same law applies to using a baseball bat as a weapon. Unless I am mistaken (I do not have FREd handy) it doesn't ADD any damage to your blow, it only sets an upper-limit of how much damage you can do because the object is fragile.

 

Personally, I add the DEF of the object to the damage being done with it. So 70 STR +DEF 5 = 19d6 of damage. However, using Move-Through logic, the car takes half the full amount of this damage, or all of it if the target takes no knockback (which is very likely to destroy it). Since this is a car we're talking about, I'd also call it a 1 hex Area of Effect attack.

 

When throwing something, use the DEF+BODY to determine base damage, then add damage from velocity using the Throwing Things table. Again, treat it as a Move-Through for the object in question.

[Farkling]

Personally, since it is a comic book, I apply the breakbility to large objects. Small Aerodynamic stuff DESIGNED for throwing could certainly do more damage...but if you want it to work that way on a regular basis, maybe you should buy a power than applies to "Balls of circumstance" or something like that. A pitcher has levels that he can use to hit you and increase his damage after all. His experience and special effects allow him to be "on target". The brick on the other hand can throw the ball HARD, but not target as well...thus a variation in damage due to special effects.

 

Now, with LARGE objects...it can do up to it's DEF+BOD in damage (in combat), and any BODY in excess of it's defense is applied to the object. Nasty GM's will have the gas tank explode when the car is destroyed. Technically the object is unusable as a weapon once it's BODY is gone. Your Mileage May Vary.

 

Large objects should get bonusses to hit or minor Area Effect applications. After all, it is much easier to dodge a punch than a buick. If the object is bigger than one hex, you should need to dive for cover to get out of the way...

 

So, on the fly, a car or telephone pole or wall would add a little reach and make it eaiser to hit the target.

 

Let's see....70 STr = 14d6.

So StrongGuy swings his mighty Pinto. He rolls against DCV three to hit the target hex (Pinto is bigger than one Hex).

 

1st attack does his 14d6 (STR) for, 15 Body and 56 STUN....

The pinto has 5 BODY left. StrongGuy may roll 10d6, or 14d6 for damage...depending on GM. Personally, since it is a car, I think he has enough left for weapon use until negative BODY, so I say 14d6. Let's say he gets a good roll....16 BODY and 60 STUN. The Pinto now has -6 BODY.

 

This is not quite to the -14 to utterly destroy it. For dramatic effect pieces should be falling off. Also for dramatic effect, the GM decides to have the gas tank explode. Let's see....maybe 9d6 Normal Explosion....enough to startle StrongGuy and perhaps discourage him from wantonly destroying peoples property. It'll also pretty much finish the car...I expect it wil be at -10 BOFY, making it what? a 9d6 club if used for another swing? StrongGuy pretty much has some twisted remnanats of the frame left at that point. Or maybe the engine block...

 

Additionally, if StrongGuy's target is still standing, he's is in the blast area also. So might be pedestrians, buildings, friends, the press, the police... heh heh heh. Nobody gets extra damage perks for free....says so in FREd somewhere.

 

And next comes the insurance company suing him for wantonly damageing their customers property...or the news story about the starving single parent who had their only means of transportaqtion callously destroyed in a supervillain battle.

 

Alas, poor StrongGuy will find it incredibly difficult to locate a weapon that can stand up to his STR rating. Megron had that problem in my games for years. He would pick up a big object and use half of his STR so it wouldn;t get too damaged. He always went looking for a car when a martial artist showed up. It was the only way he could hit them.

[Farkling]

And on another note, Klytus adding the defense is something I don't agree with....I might add half of it to simulate the "Casual STR effect" since the DEF is nearly STR and I cut corners in combat...the object cant use its STR actively...it's an object. And there is a little too much bang for the buck in that method for me.

 

If you use the Move Through logic, I would consider the vehicle unusable a 0 BODY, otherwise the longevity of objects is too great in combat.

 

I'll have to try this variant.

I think it would work faster in combat.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Farkling

And on another note, Klytus adding the defense is something I don't agree with....I might add half of it to simulate the "Casual STR effect" since the DEF is nearly STR and I cut corners in combat...the object cant use its STR actively...it's an object. And there is a little too much bang for the buck in that method for me.

 

If you use the Move Through logic, I would consider the vehicle unusable a 0 BODY, otherwise the longevity of objects is too great in combat.

 

I'll have to try this variant.

I think it would work faster in combat.

I'm not entirely happy with it either, but I think it just doesn't make sense to me that a DEF 4 BODY 8 object will do the same amount of damage to the target regardless of whether it was swung/thrown by Ogre, Grond, Superman or the Hulk. The stronger bricks should be doing more damage with it because they are... well... stronger.

[Farkling]

And now friend Klytus, we have reached the point in the game physics where they appllied comic book physics to a real situation. If you hit something hard enough it breaks, bends, snaps, deforms, shatters or becomes useless.

 

In my mind, it doesn't matter if you hit me with a glass rod, or a professional weightlifter does. The rod will shatter or break after I am hit. Are there any engineers reading this who can give a real world comparison of some kind?

 

Hmmm.....the old west bar fight comes to mind also. A beer bottle (fictionally) only dowe so much damage, and shatters. Same for chairs, excpet stronger folks break 'em faster. It still only effectively uses the exerted STR. One swing versus two or three is the difference. The big fella's swings HURT more.

 

Mechanically there is a spreading/deteriorating effect. A brick getting his hands on a DEF 8, BOD 5 object gets one swing at 13d6, about 3-5 swings at 9d6, or all he wants at 6d6. Myself being an Energy Thrower, I feel that's a good mechanics tradeoff for using the environment for Area Effect attacks at no penalty, or to get free range. After all, his STR was the same price as mt EB.

 

Let's face it...once you reach about 50+ STR, the world is effectively made of plastic and cardboard. There is very little steel from your perspective. Maybe some plywood though.

 

I think the model in FREd is trying to simulate that effect.

 

As an optional rule, you could always let the strike that shatters/destroys the object do full damage, but the hero should be left with handfuls of toothpicks or shavings in my opinion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Perhaps the rule should be that you can inflict up to DEF dice with your improvised weapon without damaging it. Every die after that inflicts one body, and the most you can inflict is DEF + 2x BOD (ie enough to destroy the object).

 

I like the idea of basing the extra damage on the object's DEF. No matter how big it is, how much is your damage going to increase from swinging a feather? Maybe +1d6 for every 2 or 3 DEF of the object, porovided DEF is based on hardness.

 

There's lots of questions. For example, if the object is clearly demolished in the attack, would it do any real damage, or just crumple on impact. Maybe the STR add cannot exceed the DEF + BOD (or DEF + 2xBOD) of the object, just like "realistic" weapons can't add more damage than their own DC. Yeah, I know that rule doesn't apply to weapons in supers campaigns, but that's because MightyMan paid points for his 2d6 billy club - he didn't pay points to pick up a city bus. The points include training/skill to override that limitation.

 

Of course, we get "but what about Character X" - the Flash can punch a playing card through an oak tree, for example. Yup - he paid points to do that (either bought a power or used Power skill). If you want to pay the freight, you can do the same thing.