Some Grab House rules I'm considering

[nexus]

These are some options I'm rolling around in my head, considering which one to implement. Opinions?

 

1. The target of a Grab gets their full strength on an immediate break out attempt automatically. How many actions they have left is determined normally and if they've already used their action in that phase it consumed half or part of the next one.

 

2. The target of a Grab may abort their next phase to get their strength on a break out attempt.

 

3. Doing anything other than squeezing and throwing the target the ground in the same of an adjacent hex cannot take place until the attacker's next action phase.

[Frenchman]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

These are some options I'm rolling around in my head' date=' considering which one to implement. Opinions? [/quote']

 

Always glad to give mine.

 

1. The target of a Grab gets their full strength on an immediate break out attempt automatically. How many actions they have left is determined normally and if they've already used their action in that phase it consumed half or part of the next one.

 

Our group actually mis-read the grab rules and this is the way we used them - defender gets their full STR immediatly to resist the grab. Problem was, this made grab almost useless (at least for the heroic genre, where it was very unusual for anyone to exceed 20 STR, or 30 with magical aid). The character allready had to make an attack roll at a significant penalty, and we have few characters who have both high STR and DEX, so the attacker was almost guaranteed a wasted action unless it was against a target who was both weaker and at a low DCV, in which case why not whack 'em with your axe? Usually grabs happened from surprise or against a stunned opponent because of this. Even when the OCV roll succeeded, the opponent had a not-unrespectable chance to get out with the STR roll, and THEN the attacker has to make another attack roll to hit with the attack - squeeze or throw or whatever.

Long-winded explanation short: The attacker has to win three rolls allready for a result that is rarely better than that a simple strike would have achieved.

 

2. The target of a Grab may abort their next phase to get their strength on a break out attempt.

 

I thought they could allready do this? It sure sounds like aborting to a defensive action to me. I guess I have to go back and *sigh* read the grab section of my UMA again - its starting to wear out.

 

3. Doing anything other than squeezing and throwing the target the ground in the same of an adjacent hex cannot take place until the attacker's next action phase.

 

Again, I thought this was allready a(n optional?) rule. I would add to that list any attack unarmed or with a small melee weapon, like a knife. Stabbing and punching isn't that much more difficult that locking your hands and squeezing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

These are some options I'm rolling around in my head, considering which one to implement. Opinions?

 

1. The target of a Grab gets their full strength on an immediate break out attempt automatically. How many actions they have left is determined normally and if they've already used their action in that phase it consumed half or part of the next one.

 

Could the character choose not to do this if they wanted to do something else with their next phase? Could they also choose to immediately invoke some other ability (Desolid, Teleport, Escape Artist, Martial Escape for example) or would only high STR characters benefit from this expansion of the rules? I'd avoid this one.

 

2. The target of a Grab may abort their next phase to get their strength on a break out attempt.

 

I'd consider this reasonable to be a "defensive action" which one may abort to. No harm specifically ruling so, up front, so all the players are on the same page (and no one can complain the rules are changing when a villain does this).

 

3. Doing anything other than squeezing and throwing the target the ground in the same of an adjacent hex cannot take place until the attacker's next action phase.

 

The only difference between this and the actual rules are, I believe, that the standard rules would allow a throw further than an adjacent hex. A throw at a specific target requires an attack roll, and cannot be done in the same phase as the target was grabbed (I think that's in the FAQ; it's definitely been on the Rules Q board).

[Vondy]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

I've always just used an opposed characteristic roll with strength modified by maneuvers, skill levels, or surprise/creative moves.

[nexus]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

Our group actually mis-read the grab rules and this is the way we used them - defender gets their full STR immediatly to resist the grab. Problem was, this made grab almost useless (at least for the heroic genre, where it was very unusual for anyone to exceed 20 STR, or 30 with magical aid). The character allready had to make an attack roll at a significant penalty, and we have few characters who have both high STR and DEX, so the attacker was almost guaranteed a wasted action unless it was against a target who was both weaker and at a low DCV, in which case why not whack 'em with your axe? Usually grabs happened from surprise or against a stunned opponent because of this. Even when the OCV roll succeeded, the opponent had a not-unrespectable chance to get out with the STR roll, and THEN the attacker has to make another attack roll to hit with the attack - squeeze or throw or whatever.

Long-winded explanation short: The attacker has to win three rolls allready for a result that is rarely better than that a simple strike would have achieved.

 

This is a good point and I should have made clear that I was considering these more for Superheroic/High Powered games. The issue was not so much grabs being hard to escape from it was the “Grab and toss to the moon” affect you got with high strength (or worse high TK) characters Unless they’re opponent was heavier or had some a high speed movement power they could be consistently removed from the fight or badly hurt (toss them straight up or off something high) with little chance of escape. Brick types were particularly vulnerable because they have often have relatively low DCV.

 

 

I thought they could allready do this? It sure sounds like aborting to a defensive action to me. I guess I have to go back and *sigh* read the grab section of my UMA again - its starting to wear out.

 

Its under GM discretion.

 

Again, I thought this was allready a(n optional?) rule. I would add to that list any attack unarmed or with a small melee weapon, like a knife. Stabbing and punching isn't that much more difficult that locking your hands and squeezing.

 

You can immediately squeeze a target for damage or throw them as far as your strength will allow in the same phase as the Grab attempt.

 

Could the character choose not to do this if they wanted to do something else with their next phase? Could they also choose to immediately invoke some other ability (Desolid, Teleport, Escape Artist, Martial Escape for example) or would only high STR characters benefit from this expansion of the rules? I'd avoid this one.

 

Characters could apply Escape based Exerts and Contortionist skills normally. Activating a Power is possible if they have a phase or they can abort their next action to do so. Yes, the character could choose not to do this.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

I think the grab rules work very well as printed. If you have a problem w/ super strong characters grabbing opponents and flinging them really far away, then perhaps your players need to take heed of the tactic and conduct their actions appropriately -- like choosing to Abort vs Grab attempts.

[nexus]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

Well, as in all cases, YMMV but yes, characters do abort to dodge and its still been a problem so I've come up with some possible patches.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

Well' date=' as in all cases, YMMV but yes, characters do abort to dodge and its still been a problem so I've come up with some possible patches.[/quote']

 

If Abort to Dodge aint hacking it, try Abort to Block or Abort to Dive For Cover or Abort to Escape (if you allow it).

 

Also, its worth pointing out that a character can use 1/2 the STR bonus from a Martial Maneuver for their initial free Casual STR test -- Martial Escape might prove to be a worthwhile manuever to pick up for characters tired of being thrown all the time...also, DCV levels specifically vs Grabs are also an option.

 

Something like this:

 

Anti-Grappling Techniques

Martial Block

Martial Escape

Root

+3 DCV vs Grabs

[nexus]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

Its not that there aren't ways to get around it but that tactic is too effective IME just as it is (and is free) so I don't want to have characters invest points just to defeat it (or having to build NPCs specfically to avoid it)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

Its not that there aren't ways to get around it but that tactic is too effective IME just as it is (and is free) so I don't want to have characters invest points just to defeat it (or having to build NPCs specfically to avoid it)

 

Fair enough.

 

So is it the long distance that a superstrong character can throw a normal person (and thus the damage that is generated) the problem for you? That's really the only problem I've seen in general myself (and not so much of one I typically worry about it).

 

An easy rule of thumb I've used in the past is to ignore the throwing things chart for normal size / weight characters and have the inches thrown equal the dice of effect the thrower has in STR -- thus a 60 STR character could throw a normal weight person 12". The normal rules for 1/2 damage for hitting the ground / full damage for hitting a wall or other sizable obstacle apply. Thus the actual damage done by the thrower is equivalent to or less than if they just threw a punch or squeezed. On the part of the throwee, they get tossed out of position, but on the other hand there's no knockback involved either so its not that bad of a trade off.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

Its not that there aren't ways to get around it but that tactic is too effective IME just as it is (and is free) so I don't want to have characters invest points just to defeat it (or having to build NPCs specfically to avoid it)

 

Well, it's a tactic available to both sides. Nothing stops a teammate catching the target. One factor that could discourage this would be ruling that the DCV penalty (1/2 DCV while grabbing a target) applies until the Grabber's next phase, even if he throws the Grabbee before that. While the "grab and toss" is a very effective tactic for removing one target from the field of battle for a few phases, the "everyone hit the 1/2 DCV target as fast and as hard as you can" tactic is also very effective at removing a target from the fight.

 

The Grab & Toss isn't always that effectie, depending on the goal. If you're trying to capture the opponent, tossing him just gives him a good head start on escaping. As well, when he does return, he could do so stealthily, and maybe get in a surprise attack for his trouble.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Some Grab House rules I'm considering

 

An idea: using the full 'throwing objects' distance table requires a full phase action. A half-phase attack action throw only covers STR/5 inches, as per Killer Shrike above.