Ghosts and other Spirits

[bjvargas]

What do y'all think of building ghosts and other spirits (pc or npc) as naturally inhabiting their dimensions, and not having to pay all that cost just to merely exist?

 

In other words, no desolid-affected by blah, etc. Just like a character built on the 'real world' has to pay to affect their world, they have to pay to affect the 'real world', or to move into it, etc. But without all the other drek. I mean, PCs built normally don't have to buy Inherent to have their natural PD and ED, for example.

 

But if these 'ghosts' or 'spirits' so much as even want to Peek into the 'real world', they would have to buy affects solid.

 

In other words, no up-front costs just to exists, but every fragging detail of affecting the other side must be paid for.

 

Thoughts?

[Labrat]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

What do y'all think of building ghosts and other spirits (pc or npc) as naturally inhabiting their dimensions, and not having to pay all that cost just to merely exist?

 

In other words, no desolid-affected by blah, etc. Just like a character built on the 'real world' has to pay to affect their world, they have to pay to affect the 'real world', or to move into it, etc. But without all the other drek. I mean, PCs built normally don't have to buy Inherent to have their natural PD and ED, for example.

 

But if these 'ghosts' or 'spirits' so much as even want to Peek into the 'real world', they would have to buy affects solid.

 

In other words, no up-front costs just to exists, but every fragging detail of affecting the other side must be paid for.

 

Thoughts?

 

Default Dimension is 'Ghost World' and buy Clairsentience, Images and TK all based on Transdimensional Advantages?

 

Of course that's munchkiny as all get out...

[bjvargas]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

PS: Various powers could still be paid for as 'inherent', like a fire-based damage shield for a fire elemental. But still wouldn't have to buy 'Desolid' just to exist.

[bjvargas]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

Default Dimension is 'Ghost World' and buy Clairsentience' date=' Images and TK all based on Transdimensional Advantages?[/quote']

 

Exactly. No up-front 'desolid' costs and such, but anything and *everything* they want to affect the real world would have those transdimensional advantages.

 

I mean, technically, at least for NPCs, some spirits or ghosts would never, ever, even need to buy those powers. They would never encounter 'real people' unless those people summoned them, or the people went to their dimension.

 

But yeah...a ghost in a haunted house... It 'exists in' that ghost dimension, but since it is a haunter, it has Clair-transd, TK-transD, Images-TransD, Chilling Touch (Drain Stun-TransD), etc.

 

When not affecting the 'real world' (just like it would be for a critter from any other dimension that never interacts with it), it can only be dealt with via TransD powers. But while affecting the 'real world', not only EDM powers, but also Affects Desolid works too. Hmm...this is coming together...

[bjvargas]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

Thinking about it even more...the spirits can have multiple ways of 'manifesting', depending on the nature of the spirit.

 

For example, a true 'ghost' could be off in its own world, and need transD effects if it wants to affect the 'real world' while still there. Or, if it chooses to truly 'manifest', it can do so by using EDM to move into the real world, and then having a desolid body and effect (paying appropriately for all those, of course).

 

Now, in the case of say, a Demon, often considered a type of spirit, the Demon doesn't have to have Desolid while in its own dimension. Nor does it need to be desolid here in the 'real world'. So it manifests without desolid, or as partly desolid, all depending on definition, build process, and GM.

 

So it seems to me that the same can/should apply to some 'spirit's that sometimes manifest, such as ghosts.

[bjvargas]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

Don't mind me - I am just thinking 'out loud', if you will. Thoughts still greatly appreciated.

[bjvargas]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

Hmmm, yes, thinking and reading more about Ghosts of various sorts...often ghost-chasers can't find any evidence of a ghost via whatever tests they have available while the ghost is 'dormant' (in its own dimension), but can while it is active (manifest).

 

In its own dimension, no desolid. Manifested, desolid, paid for with a limitation (only while manifested - costs serious END), and the like.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

I think it's a perfectly valid build depending on how you define "spirits" for your campaign world. Of course if you want the characters to be able to make a valid contribution in the material world they'll have to make extensive use of the Transdimensional Advantage for everything: Strength, Powers, Senses etc. That Advantage would also take the place of Affects Desolidified for heroes and villains who have some expectation of dealing with spirit characters.

 

Taking all that into account, I'm not sure the resulting characters would be less complex, or significantly less expensive, than Desolid ones. It might come down to esthetic preference.

[Labrat]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

I was dying to see how 'legal' this build was but didn't have my books at work, now I'm at home and I came up with these:

 

Clairsentience (Hearing And Sight Groups), Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2) (45 Active Points)

 

Sight, Hearing and Smell/Taste Groups Images 1" radius, Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2) (30 Active Points)

*NOTE: Some ghosts can manifest as ONLY sounds or ONLY smells so this one is modifiable

 

Telekinesis (10 STR), Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2) (22 Active Points)

*Or you can choose Chilling Touch, Darkness, TK AE (Poltergeist), PRE Drain (chains and harrowing howls) etc.

 

Total thus far is 97 CPs. Is it less expensive than Desold and build all else on "Affects Solids (+2)? It seems it should be. The Desolid cost is half of that alone and the TK 10 STR makes it more expensive just with those two powers:

 

Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (80 Active Points); Always On (-1/2) (53 Active Points)

 

Telekinesis (10 STR), Affects Physical World (+2) (45 Active Points)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

Except that, for other than Senses, the Powers that are Transdimensional must either be inherently Indirect (such as Telekinesis) or also buy the Indirect Advantage to at least the +1/2 level (FREd p. 174/5ER p. 268).

[bjvargas]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

 

Taking all that into account, I'm not sure the resulting characters would be less complex, or significantly less expensive, than Desolid ones. It might come down to esthetic preference.

 

I am not too worried with the complexity - as long as I can explain it to myself, I am fine with it And, I am not even all that worried about less expensive, though I wouldn't want to saddle them with more expense either.

 

My thinking is that characters, pc or npc, aren't all necessarily guaranteed to be subject to the limitations that come with desolidification. Spirit magick shouldn't (in my worldview) work on a spirit that isn't somehow 'manifest' (in other words is off in its own dimension). And it shouldn't be subject 24/7 to whatever effects are chosen with Desolid when it isn't 'manifest'.

 

Thanks for the input!

[bjvargas]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

Total thus far is 97 CPs. Is it less expensive than Desold and build all else on "Affects Solids (+2)? It seems it should be. The Desolid cost is half of that alone and the TK 10 STR makes it more expensive just with those two powers:

 

Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (80 Active Points); Always On (-1/2) (53 Active Points)

 

Telekinesis (10 STR), Affects Physical World (+2) (45 Active Points)

 

Exactly my thoughts, but I haven't had the chance to work out some of the mechanics to prove it to myself. Thanks!

[bjvargas]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

Except that' date=' for other than Senses, the Powers that are Transdimensional must either be inherently Indirect (such as Telekinesis) or also buy the Indirect Advantage to at least the +1/2 level (FREd p. 174/5ER p. 268).[/quote']

 

Hmmmm....reworking...

 

Thanks!

[Rapier]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

There shouldn't be a problem for cross-mixing dimensions. I can see building a character as they exist in their home dimension (eg Lims that aren't Limiting aren't worth points) and then making them spending points to live in ours.

 

I could see a character that is NATURALLY Desol and has paid points for all the "Affects Real World" stuff. It would have to be on a limited basis and for specific species of beings, but it's not much of a stretch. We already do just such a thing for Growth/Shrinking and DI. What's different about extending that to things like Desol, Invis, etc?

 

They only difference is how you handle it in your games. If they are NPCs, there's not a single problem. NPCs have as many points as you need them to!

[bjvargas]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

What I'm dealing with is, for a PC, the concept of a Very strong-willed person who was murdered...then stewed over it as a Ghost, hoping to get revenge, building power and talent while doing so.

 

She got that revenge many years later...but then found out that her death was a stupid mistake, not a pre-meditated or malicious thing. All she had done with her revenge was to take away a father from his family.

 

So after a few more years of remorse (a very, very small time for a ghost), she has decided to try and put what she has learned to good use...try and make up for what she did.

 

--- So yeah, much of the time she is 'elsewhere', but when needed, she will jump in and help the team. Costs her pleny in energy, but worth it to her.

[Labrat]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

Except that' date=' for other than Senses, the Powers that are Transdimensional must either be inherently Indirect (such as Telekinesis) or also buy the Indirect Advantage to at least the +1/2 level (FREd p. 174/5ER p. 268).[/quote']

 

Ah. I knew there'd be a catch.

 

Why Indirect though? I could see 'No Range' modifiers to represent the Ghost character that has to share the same position in both dimensions at the same time.

 

I figured that it couldn't be that easy. I'll look it up for myself tomorrow. Thanks for pointing that out LL.

[OddHat]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

My Imperium Romanum thread over in the Fantasy Hero forum deals with how I currently handle this. YMMV and all that.

 

In short form, Ghosts naturally inhabit Astral Space. They have to pay for Transdimensional on the Sight Group to perceive the physical world; if they do so, they can target the physical world with EGO powers or powers based on ECV. They can always be perceived by Mental Awareness, appropriate Detects, the Mental Sense Group, or Transdimensional (Astral Space) Sight, and may always be targeted by ADSO attacks and powers BOECV.

 

Ghosts perceive and interact with one-another normally, and Astral Space is both inhabited and multi-leveled, with its own dangers.

 

The upshot is that Ghosts become somewhat cheaper and more standardized in their abilities. In a magic oriented campaign, where PCs and important NPCs have Mental Powers and ADSO attacks, Ghost characters aren't overpowered for the price they pay. In a campaign where the GM doesn't want to go to the trouble of creating Astral / Spiritual threats for Ghostly PCs, or where the PCs or NPCs aren't regularly going to have the powers to deal with Ghostly foes, I'd recommend against this approach, and instead use the standard Invisibility plus Desolid; the EDM option quickly becomes a game breaker if no one can spot or affect the ghost.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

For a world concept it works well.

 

The only issue I can think of, from a "standard" game point of view, is that all your abilities (PD, ED, etc) either need Transdimensional or by virtue of defined SFX you're not a hittable target by opponents and have paid 0 points for "invulnerability" to attack unless the opponent has Transdimensional.

 

Unless, by the mere act of manifestation you gain a tangible aspect others can target, in which case the other dimensional aspects are mere SFX and you can just buy XDM:"Home" when not out adventuring.

 

Now - on the flipside, if this is a Known Aspect of the world and the ability to jump back and forth between the two dimensions is moderately common then I would say defining a PC/NPC as belonging to one or the other is a simple matter and then Transdimensional on aspects that can cross the threshhold is acceptable on both side of the coin. Assuming it's common on both sides of the coin.

[OddHat]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

For a world concept it works well.

 

The only issue I can think of, from a "standard" game point of view, is that all your abilities (PD, ED, etc) either need Transdimensional or by virtue of defined SFX you're not a hittable target by opponents and have paid 0 points for "invulnerability" to attack unless the opponent has Transdimensional.

 

Unless, by the mere act of manifestation you gain a tangible aspect others can target, in which case the other dimensional aspects are mere SFX and you can just buy XDM:"Home" when not out adventuring.

 

Now - on the flipside, if this is a Known Aspect of the world and the ability to jump back and forth between the two dimensions is moderately common then I would say defining a PC/NPC as belonging to one or the other is a simple matter and then Transdimensional on aspects that can cross the threshhold is acceptable on both side of the coin. Assuming it's common on both sides of the coin.

 

Good summary.

 

From my own experience, EDM Ghosts work with a minimum of book keeping and fiddling around; so long as ghosts and spirits are a major part of the campaign, with adventures and NPCs designed accordingly, it's a viable approach.

 

If NPCs and adventures are not designed to deal with Ghosts, Ghostly characters effectively get Invisibility, Desolidification, and APW on attack powers at a deep discount. They're also technically immune to ADSO attacks. That's effectively a lot of free points to be handing out.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

Good summary.

 

From my own experience, EDM Ghosts work with a minimum of book keeping and fiddling around; so long as ghosts and spirits are a major part of the campaign, with adventures and NPCs designed accordingly, it's a viable approach.

 

If NPCs and adventures are not designed to deal with Ghosts, Ghostly characters effectively get Invisibility, Desolidification, and APW on attack powers at a deep discount. They're also technically immune to ADSO attacks. That's effectively a lot of free points to be handing out.

 

Exactly.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea. I have never played in a game where ghosts are common like this, or even uncommon really. But the concept is sound, and really neat.

 

But your last paragraph neatly outlines the problem: unless everyone is at least moderately prepared to deal with "Crossing Over" then the ghost character gets all kinds of stuff at no cost. Which can quickly unbalance a game to a painful level.

[OddHat]

Re: Ghosts and other Spirits

 

Exactly.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea. I have never played in a game where ghosts are common like this, or even uncommon really. But the concept is sound, and really neat.

 

But your last paragraph neatly outlines the problem: unless everyone is at least moderately prepared to deal with "Crossing Over" then the ghost character gets all kinds of stuff at no cost. Which can quickly unbalance a game to a painful level.

It's one of those areas that's always trickier in an RPG than in fiction, even more so in a point based system where characters are meant to be balanced. The Enter the Microverse/Megaverse/Speed Zone/Mind Zone approach can be used here, with all the caveats that go along with those powers; they work really well at simulating the genre, but only work in a campaign if treated as major elements with scenarios adjusted accordingly.

 

In my Imperium Romanum games it works out well enough; ghosts and spirits are formidable against many NPCs, especially mooks, but very vulnerable to spell casters and the dangers of the Astral. I wouldn't use the same approach in my WWII Supers game; not enough psychics and spell casters to keep EDM Ghost types from being disproportionately effective compared to the price they paid.