New Mechanic: Curse

[schir1964]

Curse (Adjustment, Costs Endurance) [stop Sign]

This attack transfers a negative effect upon the target for a limited amount of time. The player must specify the effect that they are attempting to impose on the target before they roll the dice. This power is no range by default.

 

Cost: 10 Points Per 1d6

 

Concept by CTaylor

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

At present the main way to do this would be a transform. This suggestion is cheaper for minor effects and more expensive for major effects and so sounds a more balanced power.

 

Presumably this would be no-range and cumulative, and cost END and be defended against by PowDef?

 

One problem with this is that it allows very powerful effects potentially, because disadvantage points are not truly balanced. Example, blindness is 25 points, and giving someone a code v killing is only 20. Making a target miniscule or gargantuan (with 'physical limtiation' is only 15 points and giving someone a 2x vulnerability to your (uncommon) Oxygen Attack costs only 10 points.

 

I think any 'curse' effect would need to be far better defined than just allowing the imposition of disadvantages, or it would be a charnel house....

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

At present the main way to do this would be a transform. This suggestion is cheaper for minor effects and more expensive for major effects and so sounds a more balanced power.

Yes, it gives more granularity than what the current system allows.

 

Presumably this would be no-range and cumulative' date=' and cost END and be defended against by PowDef?[/quote']

Unfortunately, CTalyor would have to clarify these points. He didn't specify anything beyond what I presented here so I don't know if those presumptions are true. So for now, it is left vague on many aspects.

 

One problem with this is that it allows very powerful effects potentially' date=' because disadvantage points are not truly balanced. Example, blindness is 25 points, and giving someone a code v killing is only 20. Making a target miniscule or gargantuan (with 'physical limtiation' is only 15 points and giving someone a 2x vulnerability to your (uncommon) Oxygen Attack costs only 10 points.[/quote']

Sounds like we need to fix the Character Disadvantages, which means that the problem doesn't reside with this power. (8^D)

 

I think any 'curse' effect would need to be far better defined than just allowing the imposition of disadvantages' date=' or it would be a charnel house....[/quote']

Agreed. It is currently very vagues based on the lack of information.

 

Perhaps CTaylor might flesh this concept out a bit more for us.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

I like this better as a means of imposing penalties on characters. Application to disad's in general should appply where existing disad's don't cut it.

 

So, for some examples:

 

- Imposing Psych's might be a Mind Control

 

- Draining Sight might be imposing negative skill levels on Sight PER rolls - OTOH, those cost what, 2 points each, so 25 points would be -12 or -13 to those PER rolls. He's pretty much blind anyway, and 10 points imposed -5, where 10 points towards 25 points of Blind presumably did nothing

 

- Unluck is imposed normally

 

This would, to me, be like a Drain and would cost END, be no range, be defended by power defense, etc.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

My concept was to be structured like Aid, so power defense would reduce the power, and it would be no range (although it should cost END, which Aid curiously does not). The problem is some disadvantages would be very easy to take advantage of for not so very many points: Imagine giving someone x2 body from physical attacks, that's like 35 points? Not much for a lot of power. It would probably have to cost like 15 points per D6 to be balanced.

 

You can't simply give someone unluck in the rules right now. You can buy a transformation attack and give it to them, but not only is that effectively permanent, but it would cost you ungodly points just to make them slightly less lucky. That's a bit exorbitant for a conceptual build.

 

I envision this being like the gypsy or the old crone who says a horrible word and gestures, making the warrior cursed for a time period. From now on you fall in love with all beautiful women! (psych lim), etc.

 

The present system does not support this concept very elegantly, but a new power like this would.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

My concept was to be structured like Aid, so power defense would reduce the power, and it would be no range (although it should cost END, which Aid curiously does not). The problem is some disadvantages would be very easy to take advantage of for not so very many points: Imagine giving someone x2 body from physical attacks, that's like 35 points? Not much for a lot of power. It would probably have to cost like 15 points per D6 to be balanced.

 

You can't simply give someone unluck in the rules right now. You can buy a transformation attack and give it to them, but not only is that effectively permanent, but it would cost you ungodly points just to make them slightly less lucky. That's a bit exorbitant for a conceptual build.

 

I envision this being like the gypsy or the old crone who says a horrible word and gestures, making the warrior cursed for a time period. From now on you fall in love with all beautiful women! (psych lim), etc.

 

The present system does not support this concept very elegantly, but a new power like this would.

I've updated the original post. I'm not sure how the points are equated to the effect directly. Can you expound more on this?

 

Is there anything that I need to add/change/remove in the original post?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

My concept was to be structured like Aid' date=' so power defense would reduce the power, and it would be no range (although it should cost END, which Aid curiously does not). [/quote']

 

Aid is a 6 2/3 point per die power with a +1/2 "0 END" advantage. I would agree the "curse" power would appropriately cost END at the 10 point per 1d6 level.

 

2x STUN from all physical attacks would require achieving 30 points of effect, so 10d6 Curse with standard effect or 9d6 of curse with an average roll. That's a 90 to 100 point power to cause the effect with a single Curse. Is that really unreasonably cheap? A 60 point power would need 2 hits on average to achieve the effect, and it will fade fairly quickly over time. Is that wholly unreasonable? Spending that 60 points on another 12d6 of Physical EB to end up with 24d6 seems much more effective. [i'm ignoring STR and hand Attack since their prices are often debated for fairness.]

[BNakagawa]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

Still, even a X1 1/2 STUN from physical attacks is a crippling disadvantage (especially for a brick who can't avoid getting hit). Such a power wouldn't require a lot of points to sustain and would effectively cripple any brick in the book.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

Still' date=' even a X1 1/2 STUN from physical attacks is a crippling disadvantage (especially for a brick who can't avoid getting hit). Such a power wouldn't require a lot of points to sustain and would effectively cripple any brick in the book.[/quote']

 

2x STUN from all physical attacks would require achieving 30 points of effect' date=' so 10d6 Curse with standard effect or 9d6 of curse with an average roll. That's a 90 to 100 point power to cause the effect with a single Curse. Is that really unreasonably cheap? A 60 point power would need 2 hits on average to achieve the effect, and it will fade fairly quickly over time. Is that wholly unreasonable? Spending that 60 points on another 12d6 of Physical EB to end up with 24d6 seems much more effective. [i'm ignoring STR and hand Attack since their prices are often debated for fairness.']

 

1 1/2x STUN from all physical attacks would require achieving 15 points of effect, so 5d6 Curse with standard effect or 5d6 of curse with an average roll. That's a 50 point power to cause the effect with a single Curse. A 30 point power would need two hits on average. Is that really unreasonably cheap? It will fade fairly quickly over time. Is that wholly unreasonable? Spending 30 points on another 6d6 of Physical EB to end up with 18d6 seems much more effective. [i'm ignoring STR and hand Attack since their prices are often debated for fairness.]

 

In a 12 DC game, I'm seeing this as pretty balanced. 12d6 x 1.5 = 18d6, so I can spend 30 points to have the extra damage from the outset, or 30 points to inflict it on my target. Slower, he takes no damage uin the meantime and it fades, but on the other hand my allies can benefit from the extra damage as well, once I get it up and running.

 

Now, if the game centered around, say, 18 DC or 24 DC attacks, this would be very cheap. If the game focused on attacks of 6 - 8 DC, it would be too expensive. Much like Damage Reduction, which also works on a fraction multiple rather than an arithmetic progression, its balance depends entirely on the level of other powers surrounding it.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

In a 12 DC game, I'm seeing this as pretty balanced. 12d6 x 1.5 = 18d6, so I can spend 30 points to have the extra damage from the outset, or 30 points to inflict it on my target. Slower, he takes no damage uin the meantime and it fades, but on the other hand my allies can benefit from the extra damage as well, once I get it up and running.

 

Now, if the game centered around, say, 18 DC or 24 DC attacks, this would be very cheap. If the game focused on attacks of 6 - 8 DC, it would be too expensive. Much like Damage Reduction, which also works on a fraction multiple rather than an arithmetic progression, its balance depends entirely on the level of other powers surrounding it.

 

You know, you're right, the cost as is probably is tolerable. It would allow people to use vulnerabilities a lot more too - special effects might be more critical in a game. You could be a pretty weak mentalist, but be able to weaken people to mental powers and be quite effective - until you run into someone with power defense or that you don't have time to cripple. Or too many at once, for example.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

You know' date=' you're right, the cost as is probably is tolerable. It would allow people to use vulnerabilities a lot more too - special effects might be more critical in a game. You could be a pretty weak mentalist, but be able to weaken people to mental powers and be quite effective - until you run into someone with power defense or that you don't have time to cripple. Or too many at once, for example.[/quote']

As someone who has been using this kind of mechanic for years (I just call it Drain, treating Disadvantages as "Negative Powers" - I've posted many times on this idea), I have to say that it's *not* a tolerable cost in this case. Certain disads, specifically Vulnerability, Susceptibility, and Dependence need to be treated as "Defensive Disadvantages" and the effect dice to create such "Curses" needs to be haved for play balance, for the same reason as we halve effect dice of Adjustment powers that effect defensive powers.

 

To take the example given, in a 12 DC/60 AP game, a 6d6 "Curse" would otherwise be more than enough to cause the 15-point Vuln: All Physical Attacks, described above (average roll = 21 which means it lasts for two turns before it starts to lessen). After that *ALL* physical attacks from *ALL* sources go from being 12 DCs to 18 DCs - and this is in a game based around 12 DCs.

 

60 Multipower Reserve

6u 6d6 "Curse" as above

6u 12d6 EB, Physical

6u 4d6 RKA, Physical

 

So you "waste" one phase bestowing the curse, and then you spend the rest of two turns thowing 18d6 EBs or 6d6 RKAs, while your opponent is using 12 DCs.

 

If you don't halve the effect of these disads, think about what would happen if you gave your opponent Susc: Air or Dependence: Plotdevicium.

 

And regardless of how you do this, you always need to watch it carefully for curses like these:

 

Psych Lim: Deathly afraid of Me

Psych Lim: Always obeys orders from Me.

Psych Lim: Code of honor - won't attack Me.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Curse

 

Sure, the halving effect makes sense to me - what you'd want to do is make sure the cost structure was roughly the same as simulating these powers with another power, except slightly cheaper (since it's specific). So how much would it cost to mind control someone to not attack you for roughly a turn, that's how much the psych lim curse should cost, roughly.