New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I hope that's a good thing :/

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[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I can't add much to what Phil has already said. In comparing Aid to UBO, you seem to consider none of the negative aspects of Aid, including the need for multiple attack actions to affect multiple targets (or even to maximize the effect on two targets) and the fade rate.

 

Perhaps someone with the books in front of him (hey, I'm on vacation!) might want to build, say, a +3" Running power that affects 8 targets (that should cover most PC groups) on an ongoing basis (say no fade for at least 5 minutes) and requires no more than one attack action out of each of Aid and UBO. Then we can actually compare relative costs.

 

Oh, to add a question that's actually on topic, why should it be any different to add 3" Running or 3" Flight?

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I can't add much to what Phil has already said. In comparing Aid to UBO, you seem to consider none of the negative aspects of Aid, including the need for multiple attack actions to affect multiple targets (or even to maximize the effect on two targets) and the fade rate.

 

Perhaps someone with the books in front of him (hey, I'm on vacation!) might want to build, say, a +3" Running power that affects 8 targets (that should cover most PC groups) on an ongoing basis (say no fade for at least 5 minutes) and requires no more than one attack action out of each of Aid and UBO. Then we can actually compare relative costs.

 

Oh, to add a question that's actually on topic, why should it be any different to add 3" Running or 3" Flight?

 

To address that on-topic question: generally speaking, movement powers are simply that - ways to move, to get from A to B.

 

Occasionally they come into their own though, with certain effects that other movement powers cannot manage. Flight, for instance, allows vertical movement, even very slow flight, and sometimes all the horizontal movement in the world is not going to help you if you can't get over the wall.

 

Flightschtickman occasionally gets to carry Speedy over the wall. This makes him happy.

 

If Flightgrantwoman can give the whole team 3" of flight, they can all get over the wall, without Flightschtickman's help. He is sad.

 

The difference between 3" of extra running and 3" of flight that you did not have before, is that one is more and one is something new. I know that is an obvious point, but worth thinking about. This might never be an issue in your game - depends how good your GM is at spotlighting character strengths.

 

Secondly, the Aid mechanic is horribly abuseable. Even if you severely limit the number of additional powers, and require proper sfx, you can still grant the whole team a range of powers (I give you the gargoyle's blessing - flight (wings), tough skin (armour) and increased strength! All for one low, low price.)

 

Whilst you can abuse UBO that way, it is a little more complicated (involving multipowers and the 'uncontrolled' advanatge).

 

Finally, I'm not really against the idea, I just think that it ought to involve an adder so that you can build Aidman and Grantman as seperate concepts.

 

If you don;t have an adder, you are simply reducing the cost of Aid: Aid Flight (can't grant flight -1/4).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

If Flightgrantwoman can give the whole team 3" of flight' date=' they can all get over the wall, without Flightschtickman's help. He is sad.[/quote']

I recognize that play styles differ, but I would suspect that Flightschtickman has about 20" of flight and all kinds of flight tricks that he can do. If others getting 3" of Flight makes him sad, that's like Brickman being sad because others have 10 STR, IMO.

 

Secondly, the Aid mechanic is horribly abuseable. Even if you severely limit the number of additional powers, and require proper sfx, you can still grant the whole team a range of powers (I give you the gargoyle's blessing - flight (wings), tough skin (armour) and increased strength! All for one low, low price.)

Since all characters already have some value of PD, ED, and STR, and most already have some amount of Resistant defenses (possibly even armor), those aspects of the gargoyle's blessing are already legal within the rules. And if the recipient already has Flight, even one inch of it, then that part is legal, too.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I can't add much to what Phil has already said. In comparing Aid to UBO, you seem to consider none of the negative aspects of Aid, including the need for multiple attack actions to affect multiple targets (or even to maximize the effect on two targets) and the fade rate.

 

Actually I factored those in later and it still ended up cheaper to Aid someone than use UOO on someone for the same power, with roughly the same utility. I was never interested in an exact comparison, just to make the point that it's more expensive in the rules to give someone an entirely new ability than to Aid them. Which it is.

 

And yes, the rules clearly state you have to stay within x range even without the LOS limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

The difference between 3" of extra running and 3" of flight that you did not have before' date=' is that one is more and one is something new. I know that is an obvious point, but worth thinking about. This might never be an issue in your game - depends how good your GM is at spotlighting character strengths.[/quote']

 

Looked at from another angle, the character who paid for Aid Running can Aid everyone on the team. The character with Aid Flight can only Aid those individuals who already had Flight. The second character is sad - he paid the same points, but gets much less use from his power.

 

Secondly' date=' the Aid mechanic [i']is[/i] horribly abuseable. Even if you severely limit the number of additional powers, and require proper sfx, you can still grant the whole team a range of powers (I give you the gargoyle's blessing - flight (wings), tough skin (armour) and increased strength! All for one low, low price.)

 

Whilst you can abuse UBO that way, it is a little more complicated (involving multipowers and the 'uncontrolled' advanatge).

 

Most powers are quite abusable. To further muddy the waters, I could design Gargoyle's Blessing as a Transform only usable on willing targets that heals back when the target says "I want to stop being a Gargoyle". 1d6 would take a few shots to have its impact, but it fades only when the target wants it to. Why not make it transform the target into the same character with a Multiform to add the gargoyle attributes to his character sheet - now he can turn the powers on and off at will.

 

Legal and abusive all at the same time. Now, you can say you'd never allow such a power, but if that's the case, why you would allow the Aid/Grant power (even if it were book legal)?

 

If you don;t have an adder' date=' you are simply reducing the cost of Aid: Aid Flight (can't [i']grant[/i] flight -1/4).

 

Is it unreasonable that a character whose Aid can be used on a much smaller subset of targets should get a limitation on the power, as compared to a character whose Aid can be used on anyone? I'd be inclined to say no. In fact, it seems more unreasonable that the more flexible power costs the same as a much less flexible power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I recognize that play styles differ' date=' but I would suspect that Flightschtickman has about 20" of flight and all kinds of flight tricks that he can do. If others getting 3" of Flight makes him sad, that's like Brickman being sad because others have 10 STR, IMO.[/quote']

 

If you have never played City Of Heroes, you probably won;t get this point, because it does not come up much in tabletop games - at least not until you have played City of Heroes

 

Being able to run at superspeed is very cool BUT in some terrain you just can't cross without a power with a vertical movement component, so the 'Hover' power (painfully slow flight) is occasionally immensely useful.

 

In your example, Brickman knows that others can pick stuff up - he just does it better - that's his schtick - but not everyone can fly...

 

 

Since all characters already have some value of PD' date=' ED, and STR, and most already have some amount of Resistant defenses (possibly even armor), those aspects of the gargoyle's blessing are already legal within the rules. And if the recipient already has Flight, even one inch of it, then that part is legal, too.[/quote']

 

Agreed - but this makes it MORE abuseable .

 

Like I said though - I'm not necessarily arguing against using Aid to add powers to a target, I think it ought to cost a little extra to do so though. I'm going to use the phrase 'Concept Matching' here - if you want a character that CAN grant powers, it is different from one that can't, and potentially more useful. Both Powerboostlass and Powergrantlad can add 3" of flight to Flightschtickman, but only PBL can add 3" of flight to Runschtickwoman.

 

Anyway, like I said, you allow 'free' upgrades, like grant, and you make the base power cheaper because people who use it int he 'traditional' way can then clain a limitation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Looked at from another angle' date=' the character who paid for Aid Running can Aid everyone on the team. The character with Aid Flight can only Aid those individuals who already had Flight. The second character is sad - he paid the same points, but gets much less use from his power.[/quote']

 

Ah, but he KNEW what he was buying - it was his choice, so he is happy.

 

 

 

Most powers are quite abusable. To further muddy the waters, I could design Gargoyle's Blessing as a Transform only usable on willing targets that heals back when the target says "I want to stop being a Gargoyle". 1d6 would take a few shots to have its impact, but it fades only when the target wants it to. Why not make it transform the target into the same character with a Multiform to add the gargoyle attributes to his character sheet - now he can turn the powers on and off at will.

 

Legal and abusive all at the same time. Now, you can say you'd never allow such a power, but if that's the case, why you would allow the Aid/Grant power (even if it were book legal)?

 

Fair enough. there aren't enough socks and string in the world to stop the abuse (and socks and string don;t work anyway)

 

 

 

Is it unreasonable that a character whose Aid can be used on a much smaller subset of targets should get a limitation on the power' date=' as compared to a character whose Aid can be used on anyone? I'd be inclined to say no. In fact, it seems more unreasonable that the more flexible power costs the same as a much less flexible power.[/quote']

 

I think my point is that the current version of Aid does not allow you to grant powers, so it would be much less disruptive to allow the grant of powers as an adder or advantage than allow it in all cases and let people take a limitation if they don't want to.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

In your example' date=' Brickman knows that others can pick stuff up - he just does it better - that's his schtick - but not everyone can fly...[/quote']

 

Sure they can. It's limited by STR, and they must land between moves, but everyone can "fly" some distance by leaping. Can you Aid their leaping? Superleap is a separate power, but it adds to an ability everyone already has.

 

Agreed - but this makes it MORE abuseable .

 

Or, viewed another way, makes the ability to Aid something not everyone starts with closer in utility to the ability to Aid STR or STUN.

 

Like I said though - I'm not necessarily arguing against using Aid to add powers to a target, I think it ought to cost a little extra to do so though. I'm going to use the phrase 'Concept Matching' here - if you want a character that CAN grant powers, it is different from one that can't, and potentially more useful. Both Powerboostlass and Powergrantlad can add 3" of flight to Flightschtickman, but only PBL can add 3" of flight to Runschtickwoman.

 

Anyway, like I said, you allow 'free' upgrades, like grant, and you make the base power cheaper because people who use it in the 'traditional' way can then claim a limitation.

 

RunFasterMan can add Running to virtually anyone. FlyFasterMan can add flight to only a small group of targets. It seems reasonable FlyFasterMan should get a cost break, since his power is less widely useful. TeleportFurtherMan should probably get an even bigger cost break.

 

Of course, the next slippery slope becomes negative adjustment powers. FlySlowerMan and TeleportLessMan also have much more restrictive lists of viable targets.

 

Sean, would you alllow a limitation (assuming for the moment a perfect fit with concept and SFX) for "Aid Flight, only if target can Teleport" or "Aid Teleport, only if target can fly"? They have more limited viable target groups. But then it makes sense for "Aid Flight, only if target can Fly" to have a limitation...

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Sure they can. It's limited by STR, and they must land between moves, but everyone can "fly" some distance by leaping. Can you Aid their leaping? Superleap is a separate power, but it adds to an ability everyone already has.

 

Interesting point, but I'd not allow it - you could aid strength and increase leaping that way, but you would require a 'grant' power to increase leaping. I see it as different to running and swimming because it is a figured characteristic rather than an ability in its own right.

 

 

Or, viewed another way, makes the ability to Aid something not everyone starts with closer in utility to the ability to Aid STR or STUN.

 

 

 

RunFasterMan can add Running to virtually anyone. FlyFasterMan can add flight to only a small group of targets. It seems reasonable FlyFasterMan should get a cost break, since his power is less widely useful. TeleportFurtherMan should probably get an even bigger cost break.

 

Of course, the next slippery slope becomes negative adjustment powers. FlySlowerMan and TeleportLessMan also have much more restrictive lists of viable targets.

 

Sean, would you alllow a limitation (assuming for the moment a perfect fit with concept and SFX) for "Aid Flight, only if target can Teleport" or "Aid Teleport, only if target can fly"? They have more limited viable target groups. But then it makes sense for "Aid Flight, only if target can Fly" to have a limitation...

 

 

Aid flight only if target can TP - yes

 

Aid flight only if target can fly - no

 

It sounds like it makes sense, but the second limitation does not actually prevent the power being used in a situation where it otherwise could be.

 

Aidflightman knew what he was buying into. If that is his ONLY aid power (what are the chances?), I would not mind betting that he and at least half his team fly, so very little actual limitation in practice...

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

There are a lot of abilities that you can Aid that seem like new powers. For instance: Life Support has several abilities that seem like new powers. Going without air or food or water or sleep are all increases now rather than new abilities. So you can aid someone to hold their breath longer now, instead of needing an entirely new power: it just lets them extend their existing ability.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Persistent means the character can leave your UBO area without losing the power.

 

Not according to the rules. Persistent merely means you can leave the line of sight, you still have to buy up the range. Aid is no range, but you can be a billion miles away and still maintain the Aid, which means its range is effectively infinity when compared to UOO.

 

Now, if you want to make the UOO go away in 2 turns, feel free, lets treat it as a 1 turn reusable charge. That's a 3/4 limitation to the 19 active cost (notice, the active cost is unchanged in either case): still 11 points. And your range is still limited.

 

Sorry, costs more, no matter how you slice it.

 

 

On a related tangent, Steve has indicated that Persistent used for no LOS on UOO is less than an optimal rules use, and that there really should be a custom "LOS Not Required To Maintain" Advantage.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9354

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Yeah I'm not real happy with how some advantages are dual use, like armor piercing to ignore levels of hardened. Seems like there should be a "ignores hardened" for +1/4 rather than buying AP over and over. That way you could have an AP/Penetrating attack without being confusing what it's supposed to be doing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Aidflightman knew what he was buying into.

 

Maybe that's why we don't se Aid: Flight very often.

 

if I make DEX cost 1 point and charge 5 for each point of PD and ED, the character who wants to be slow and tough knows what he's buying into. That doesn't make it reasonable or fair.

It just means no one will buy that character if they want to be competetive.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Maybe that's why we don't se Aid: Flight very often.

 

if I make DEX cost 1 point and charge 5 for each point of PD and ED, the character who wants to be slow and tough knows what he's buying into. That doesn't make it reasonable or fair.

It just means no one will buy that character if they want to be competetive.

 

...but people will still buy into the defence if they know they are going up against AreaOfEffectWoman.

 

My point is that players are not stupid (well, some of them are) and tend to buy powers they can see a use for, as opposed to stuff that will rarely be used in practice, UNLESS that rarely used power is very cheap - say a slot in a MP...in which case they may be willing to blow a few points for the kudos of being able to say: I can help you there, Ma'am.

 

You are never realistically going to see an actual 60 point spend on 'Aid 20" Flight - ranged'.

 

Mind you, as a grant power, it is a splendid way of catching the falling...there is clearly a world of difference in utility there (to my mind), hence my assertion that a 'grant' power should cost more than a simple 'aid'.

 

Bear in mind that you will never need to 'grant' a power to someone who already has it, so if you pick STR or RUNNING then you are always going to be able to use the power. That means that something like Aid flight or Grant flight IS more limited in aplication BUT potentially more useful when it is needed.

 

Your argument is that if you allow grant flight as the base state of Aid, then that makes the power universally useable too.

 

My argument is that is too complicated - you would have to assess a limtiation every time that you bought an Aid WITHOUT the 'grant' element, based on how common the power is in the campaign.

 

Just tacking on a 5 point adder 'can grant powers' is a much more useable and elegant solution. Mind you, I would say that

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

On a related tangent, Steve has indicated that Persistent used for no LOS on UOO is less than an optimal rules use, and that there really should be a custom "LOS Not Required To Maintain" Advantage.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9354

 

 

In the majority of cases you would probably be better off using uncontrolled rather than persistent, as it does not require LOS or, for that matter, have range limtiations.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Mind you' date=' as a grant power, it is a splendid way of catching the falling...there is clearly a world of difference in utility there (to my mind), hence my assertion that a 'grant' power should cost more than a simple 'aid'.[/quote']

 

I don't think anyone would argue that Grant Flight is more useful than Aid Flight. The argument is whether Aid Flight is sufficiently useful that it should properly cost the same as Aid Running, or whether Aid Running is about as useful as Grant Flight, such that the Grant ability should be subsumed in the existing Aid mechanic to equalize the abilities. The fact that

 

You are never realistically going to see an actual 60 point spend on 'Aid 20" Flight - ranged'.

 

seems to imply that the non-Grant aid is overpriced. Similarly, if I drop the price of DEX to 1 point and raise the costs of PD and ED to 5 points, players will buy just enough PD and ED to get by AoE attacks, and buy up DEX, not buy up defenses to deal with non-AoE attacks. They'll also be more inclined to buy AoE attacks, since most other characters will be similarly designed.

 

Your argument is that if you allow grant flight as the base state of Aid, then that makes the power universally useable too.

 

My argument is that is too complicated - you would have to assess a limtiation every time that you bought an Aid WITHOUT the 'grant' element, based on how common the power is in the campaign.

 

How is that any more complicated than deciding the limitation for a power that does not work in darkness, only functions underwater, cannot affect females or only works on humans? It's just another limited power, to be assessed on the basis of its frequency of application.

 

Just tacking on a 5 point adder 'can grant powers' is a much more useable and elegant solution. Mind you' date=' I would say that [/quote']

 

Just tacking on a 5 point adder of "complete invulnerability" to damage reduction would be a similarly "usable and elegant solution" to the question of building invulnerability, but it doesn't match the point cost to the utility. It seems pretty clear that the value of granting the power is more than 5 points, whether we believe that should add to the cost for those who can grant, or subtract from the cost for those who cannot. One could apply your approach to a "grant by default" system as well by simply saying that the power cost is reduced by 5 points (to a minimum of 1 point) if the power can only enhance an existing ability, and not add that ability to the target. If we assume Grant as Default, are you happy with a 5 point "subtractor"? If not, the adder seems no more appropriate when Grant is not the default.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I don't think anyone would argue that Grant Flight is more useful than Aid Flight. The argument is whether Aid Flight is sufficiently useful that it should properly cost the same as Aid Running, or whether Aid Running is about as useful as Grant Flight, such that the Grant ability should be subsumed in the existing Aid mechanic to equalize the abilities. The fact that

 

 

 

seems to imply that the non-Grant aid is overpriced. Similarly, if I drop the price of DEX to 1 point and raise the costs of PD and ED to 5 points, players will buy just enough PD and ED to get by AoE attacks, and buy up DEX, not buy up defenses to deal with non-AoE attacks. They'll also be more inclined to buy AoE attacks, since most other characters will be similarly designed.

 

What it implies is you are going to find the power either in a framework, probably a MP, or as an advantage on aid (more than one power) so the cost is almost irrelevant. What matters is differentiating the grant and aid powers as simply as possible, with points.

 

 

 

How is that any more complicated than deciding the limitation for a power that does not work in darkness' date=' only functions underwater, cannot affect females or only works on humans? It's just another limited power, to be assessed on the basis of its frequency of application.[/quote']

 

Doing it the limitation way would involve retroactively reassessing every existing official character with Aid, whereas including a 5 point adder can be done for allt he unofficial ones (a smaller number in most campaigns) and any new ones. And adding 5 points is easier than dividing by 1.25. And it looks messy in frameworks.

 

 

 

Just tacking on a 5 point adder of "complete invulnerability" to damage reduction would be a similarly "usable and elegant solution" to the question of building invulnerability' date=' but it doesn't match the point cost to the utility. It seems pretty clear that the value of granting the power is more than 5 points, whether we believe that should add to the cost for those who can grant, or subtract from the cost for those who cannot. One could apply your approach to a "grant by default" system as well by simply saying that the power cost is reduced by 5 points (to a minimum of 1 point) if the power can only enhance an existing ability, and not add that ability to the target. If we assume Grant as Default, are you happy with a 5 point "subtractor"? If not, the adder seems no more appropriate when Grant is not the default.[/quote']

 

If you genuinely thought this was comparable to a 5 point adder for complete invulnerability, well, you'd have achieved a first - I'd be speechless. By your own argument it is only a small step. Well, up until this paragraph, when you seem to be suggesting that it is a big advantage. In theory that may be right, in practice: rubbish - people buy powers that they can use.

 

I think that what you have to get your head around is that the system DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO GRANT POWERS WITH AID. Why change that? Why assume Grant as the default: it isn't. Why not just use the adder?

 

Want another arguement?

 

OK. You can do the whole grant thing RIGHT NOW, without changing anything, by a tiny UBO flight to GIVE the power to someone else that you can then aid.

 

The adder suggestion formalises that, and so causes the minimum disruption, maximum flavour, and everyone will be good and happy.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

What it implies is you are going to find the power either in a framework' date=' probably a MP, or as an advantage on aid (more than one power) so the cost is almost irrelevant. What matters is differentiating the grant and aid powers as simply as possible, with points.[/quote']

 

Or perhaps if Grant is an option, we see the power outside frameworks, because it actually becomes useful enough to merit purchasing. To me, allowing Grant as the default would not be a major issue.

 

As to the simplicity and intuitive nature of this aproach, assume we have Accelerator. He can grant people enhanced movement capabilities. He buys 3d6 Aid to Running, Swimming, Flight and Teleport together (+1). He wants to bestow flight and teleport. Does he now pay 10 points for the adder (5 and a +1 advantage)? But he didn't need the adder for two of the four powers. Should the advantage price be halved (back to 5) accordingly? Should he pay for a +1/2 advantage, the advantage for two powers simultaneously, since that's the real effect of his ability? Maybe he should pay for to separate aders, since he can bestow two separate powers?

 

On the other hand, we might have FireGuy, who can Aid any one fire power at a time (+1/4). The Bestow ability really powers up FireGuy in that he can bestow any number of Fire Powers to a target, one at a time. I can see that becoming very overpowered, very quickly. Once we start using the "choose X number of powers at a time" option, the Bestow might be preferable to buying your powers directly. Why buy a Multipower of 60 AP attack powers? Just buy Aid with a lengthy fade rate and get as many powers of that SFX as you want. Of course, this is already an issue for a character who Aids multiple characteristics, one at a time, with an extended fade rate - boosting every stat for every character on the team by, say, 20 AP is pretty potent already. So this kind of ability simply mandates continued GM oversight.

 

Doing it the limitation way would involve retroactively reassessing every existing official character with Aid' date=' whereas including a 5 point adder can be done for all the unofficial ones (a smaller number in most campaigns) and any new ones. And adding 5 points is easier than dividing by 1.25. And it looks messy in frameworks.[/quote']

 

By that logic, we should change a lot more advantages to adders. We're really getting away from the topic towards an overall change in the game's mechanics. Personal Immunity springs to mind as amore appropriate to a 5 point adder than a +1/4 advantage, given its limited utility. But in the case of Bestow, it seems more useful to be able to Bestow 5d6 of a given ability than just 1d6, so I don't see the flat cost as being all that appropriate.

 

Say, what if we just allowed any power to tack on additional powers for an adder (this would be great for building mastermind characters...or mutants )?

 

How many official characters Aid powers not possessed by everyone anyway? I don't see changing existing writeups as a really big deal, since I generally customize all characters I use to some extent, but others may feel differently.

 

By your own argument it is only a small step. Well' date=' up until this paragraph, when you seem to be suggesting that it is a big advantage. In theory that may be right, in practice: rubbish - people buy powers that they can use.[/quote']

 

That's why few people buy Aid to powers - they generally don't get to use the ability. Reducing the cost of such Aids that cannot work on most targets would make these more cost-effective, and allowing them to Bestow the ability would make the 10 point per d6 cost to aid, say, Stretching seem reasonable.

 

I think that what you have to get your head around is that the system DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO GRANT POWERS WITH AID. Why change that? Why assume Grant as the default: it isn't. Why not just use the adder?

 

The system DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO GRANT POWERS WITH ADJUSTMENT POWERS, Sean. Arguing we shold simply accept that also argues that the adder should not be incorporated. If we're going to change the rules, I'd rather change them in a manner which results in more reasonable costing of the ability to grant powers to others.

 

OK. You can do the whole grant thing RIGHT NOW, without changing anything, by a tiny UBO flight to GIVE the power to someone else that you can then aid.

 

The adder suggestion formalises that, and so causes the minimum disruption, maximum flavour, and everyone will be good and happy.

 

The adder does not really formalize that, as UBO and Bestow are very different animals. I can take back UBO powers, but not Aid. What happens if I shut off that 1" UBO flight? Do the extra 14" of Aided flight automatically disappear as well, or do they remain, effectively Bestowed? If the former, then I need UBO for multiple targets, but the adder proposed doesn't differentiate between a character who can only grant the power to a single target and a character who can bestow his gift on any number of people. Do we have a limited Adder if the numbers are restricted? A 5 point adder for one target, and +5 for each doubling (which makes this adder more costly than initially assumed)? Actually, if we add the Bestow ability, we could divest of UBO - it's simply Bestow with standard effect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Or perhaps if Grant is an option' date=' we see the power outside frameworks, because it actually becomes useful enough to merit purchasing. To me, allowing Grant as the default would not be a major issue.[/quote']

 

I do get that

 

As to the simplicity and intuitive nature of this aproach, assume we have Accelerator. He can grant people enhanced movement capabilities. He buys 3d6 Aid to Running, Swimming, Flight and Teleport together (+1). He wants to bestow flight and teleport. Does he now pay 10 points for the adder (5 and a +1 advantage)? But he didn't need the adder for two of the four powers. Should the advantage price be halved (back to 5) accordingly? Should he pay for a +1/2 advantage, the advantage for two powers simultaneously, since that's the real effect of his ability? Maybe he should pay for to separate aders, since he can bestow two separate powers?

 

On the other hand, we might have FireGuy, who can Aid any one fire power at a time (+1/4). The Bestow ability really powers up FireGuy in that he can bestow any number of Fire Powers to a target, one at a time. I can see that becoming very overpowered, very quickly. Once we start using the "choose X number of powers at a time" option, the Bestow might be preferable to buying your powers directly. Why buy a Multipower of 60 AP attack powers? Just buy Aid with a lengthy fade rate and get as many powers of that SFX as you want. Of course, this is already an issue for a character who Aids multiple characteristics, one at a time, with an extended fade rate - boosting every stat for every character on the team by, say, 20 AP is pretty potent already. So this kind of ability simply mandates continued GM oversight.

 

So let me ask you this: given that the ability to bestow ANY POWER whether one at a time or several at once would appear to be...well, ridiculously powerful, how would you regulate that? Leave it up to the GM to say 'No' a lot, or build in some cost implication.

 

If it did cost 5 points to bestow a power, +5 to double the number of powers you could bestow, well, we'd have something of a rein on it. It would still be abuseable but the abuse potential would be up front and obvious: so you want to be able to bestow 64 powers: that's pretty much all of them, is't it?

 

Therewise you need to assess a limitation that varies. For Bestow running - none - no limitation - you can just Aid running as almost everyone has it.

 

For Aid EB maybe -1/4 as flight is a pretty common power

 

For Aid TP maybe -3/4

 

Aid shapeshift maybe -1 1/2 - it is an uncommon and very useful in certain situations.

 

THEN what do you do for Aidanyonefirepower Guy? What limitation is appropriate there? I have no idea.

 

 

 

By that logic' date=' we should change a lot more advantages to adders. We're really getting away from the topic towards an overall change in the game's mechanics. Personal Immunity springs to mind as amore appropriate to a 5 point adder than a +1/4 advantage, given its limited utility. But in the case of Bestow, it seems more useful to be able to Bestow 5d6 of a given ability than just 1d6, so I don't see the flat cost as being all that appropriate.[/quote']

 

You couls do it with a +1/4 advantage rather than an 5 point adder, I wouldn't see a problem there.

 

Say, what if we just allowed any power to tack on additional powers for an adder (this would be great for building mastermind characters...or mutants )?

 

How many official characters Aid powers not possessed by everyone anyway? I don't see changing existing writeups as a really big deal, since I generally customize all characters I use to some extent, but others may feel differently.

 

It is not so much existing official characters as long term characters in existing games I'm worried about disrupting.

 

 

 

That's why few people buy Aid to powers - they generally don't get to use the ability. Reducing the cost of such Aids that cannot work on most targets would make these more cost-effective' date=' and allowing them to Bestow the ability would make the 10 point per d6 cost to aid, say, Stretching seem reasonable.[/quote']

 

Stretch is an example where it would not make that much difference - the advantages of the power are relatively marginal and I've long argued that it is overpriced anyway. Think about desolid though, or shapeshift, and the havoc that would cause if everyone in a team and everyone else for that matter suddenly had access to it. I'm not saying 'No', I'm saying 'Pay for it'.

 

 

 

The system DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO GRANT POWERS WITH ADJUSTMENT POWERS' date=' Sean. Arguing we shold simply accept that also argues that the adder should not be incorporated. If we're going to change the rules, I'd rather change them in a manner which results in more reasonable costing of the ability to grant powers to others.[/quote']

 

And I'd rather change them so that we have a cost increase for increased utility. We differ.

 

 

 

The adder does not really formalize that' date=' as UBO and Bestow are very different animals. I can take back UBO powers, but not Aid. What happens if I shut off that 1" UBO flight? Do the extra 14" of Aided flight automatically disappear as well, or do they remain, effectively Bestowed? If the former, then I need UBO for multiple targets, but the adder proposed doesn't differentiate between a character who can only grant the power to a single target and a character who can bestow his gift on any number of people. Do we have a limited Adder if the numbers are restricted? A 5 point adder for one target, and +5 for each doubling (which makes this adder more costly than initially assumed)? Actually, if we add the Bestow ability, we could divest of UBO - it's simply Bestow with standard effect.[/quote']

 

 

I agree that they are not directly analagous. For that reason it is worth considering the Bestow option as it gives another way of acheiving character realisation. Because UBO and the Bestow mechanic do not do quite the same thing so I think there is room for both.

 

Multiple targets in Aid or UBO are dealt with by the AoE advantage or (with UBO) a defined advantage. You could stick with AoE for bestow or require an adder/advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

So let me ask you this: given that the ability to bestow ANY POWER whether one at a time or several at once would appear to be...well' date=' ridiculously powerful, how would you regulate that? Leave it up to the GM to say 'No' a lot, or build in some cost implication.[/quote']

 

This is where I run into a snag with the ability to bestow powers. If it's a specific, single power, that imposes some intrinsic limitations. if it's "all fire powers at once", how do we interpret Bestow?

 

Now, I think the "multiple powers at once" advantages merit a second look to begin with. The baseline is a single power or characteristic, mechanically. Under the present model, +1/4 says "pick any one ability of a specific SFX", +1/2 allows "pick any two abilities of a specific SFX", +1 makes it four and +2 makes it all of them. However, if I can adjust two specific powers or abilities - they cannot be varied - I still pay +1/2, and so on.

 

I am inclined to modify this to have:

 

- one stream of advantages for adjusting more than one ability at a time, but they don't vary. start at +1/4 to alllowtwo abilities to be adjusted at the same time. Each additional +1/4 would either double that number, or perhaps it should only add one more ability you can adjust. I lean towards the latter - Aiding multiple abilities, as opposed to Aiding a single power, is potent, but restricted somewhat by the inability to Bestow. Add Bestow, and raising the cost for adding to multiple abilities seems reasonable. And it's still MUCH cheaper than buying separate adjustment powers for each item to be affected (which is certainly another option).

 

- a second stream of advantages for being able to choose which abilities to adjust. Being restricted to a single SFX would be +1/4, and perhaps that might add one SFX for each additional +1/4 to a maximum +2 (8 SFX isn't the maximum there might be, but at that point it's probably time to stop the clock).

 

Like using 5 points to bestow a power, +5 to double the number of powers you could bestow (or +5 to add one more power that can be bestowed), we'd have something of a rein on it. As you say, it would still be abuseable but the abuse potential would be up front and obvious.

 

Really, I think it's the combination of "multiple abilities" and, especially, "reduced fade rate" that is most prone to abuse. This allows Aid to effectively become "additional stats for everyone". While adding Bestow increases the breadth of potential abuse, it doesn't change the underlying issue. Is it really more powerful to Bestow an EB, Flight, a PD Force Field and an ED Force Field than it is to Aid STR, Running, PD and ED?

 

Therewise you need to assess a limitation that varies. For Bestow running - none - no limitation - you can just Aid running as almost everyone has it.

 

For Aid EB maybe -1/4 as EB is a pretty common power

 

For Aid TP maybe -3/4

 

Aid shapeshift maybe -1 1/2 - it is an uncommon and very useful in certain situations.

 

I'd probably make the limitations higher. What percentage of targets had an EB to begin with? Certainly not 75% to 80%. How much of a limitation would you allow for "Aid DEX - only targets with base DEX of 30+" or Aid STR - only targets with 45+ base STR"? It's not an intuitive one, because we're used to the baseline that Aid does not bestow.

 

THEN what do you do for Aidanyonefirepower Guy? What limitation is appropriate there? I have no idea.

 

A similar limitation based on how common Fire SFX are. I'd say the same as "only protects against fire damage" (by the book, -1/2, but I think the book is extraordinarily stingy in this case, at least for most games).

 

It is not so much existing official characters as long term characters in existing games I'm worried about disrupting.

 

Any rule change risks disrupting existing characters. I'm not inclined to make rule changes in ongoing games. At a minimum, I'd want a full discussion with the players to ensure that no one is going to feel this change pulls the rug out from under their character. 5e's discussion of managing a change from 4e is also useful in this regard - what did you do with a long term character in an existing 4e game who had Regeneration or Shape Shift or Aid when the game switched to 5e?

 

Stretch is an example where it would not make that much difference - the advantages of the power are relatively marginal and I've long argued that it is overpriced anyway. Think about desolid though' date=' or shapeshift, and the havoc that would cause if everyone in a team and everyone else for that matter suddenly had access to it. I'm not saying 'No', I'm saying 'Pay for it'.[/quote']

 

Let's think about Desolid specifically. To Bestow the ability, I need to roll 40 points. That's 7d6 Aid (70 AP) to even have the potential to reach the required 40 points, and it will require two attack actions to get there. The power will be removed at PS 12, since 5 points will fade, leaving 37, not enough for Desolid. Reducing the fade rate to 1/minute makes the power 87 AP. 1/5 minutes makes it 105 points.

 

And that assumes we don't consider Desolid to be a defensive power which, realistically, it is. That would double the costs to 14d6 - 140, 175 or 210 AP.

 

For 140 points, I could buy 7d6 Aid, PD and ED (+1/2), fade rate per 5 minutes (+1/2) [140 points; everyone's boosted 21 PD and 21 ED], which seems a lot more effective than letting them turn desolid.

 

And I'd rather change them so that we have a cost increase for increased utility. We differ.

 

We differ. I believe that the present approach results in Aid Flight having much less utility than Aid Running, such that the base price of one or the other should be changed. Adding in Bestow removes this discrepancy in utility, at least in my eyes.

 

This would not be the first time Aid has been modified to correct inequitable pricing. The 4e "aid restores reduced stats and they don't fade" rule was changes because it made certain Aid constructs (mainly Stun and End) extremely powerful for the cost. In that case, the ability was stripped away from Aid, and the price increased.

 

In this case, I am suggesting the addition of Bestow at no cost change better balances Aid, so imposing a surcharge should not be pursued.

 

I think we agree that there is a place for the Bestow ability, and that the implementation of this ability, especially in conjunction with the ability to Bestow an array of abilities within a given SFX, needs to be reviewed carefully. If we playtested our two approaches extensively, one of us might come to agree with the other, or we might both agree some third approach is needed.

 

As is normally the case, your comments are insightful in bringing out the issues that would need to be addressed - thanks for a good discussion.