New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

... but may not use the Variable Effect advantage that adjustment powers normally may.

Why not? It seems to me the rule works equally well (or is equally broken) with granting new powers as with enhancing existing ones.

 

And, in your opinion, should the two abilities (increasing existing and granting new) have to be bought as separate powers? That's the one area where I'm still not sure. I keep thinking of good reasons why they should be the same power and why they should be separate as well.

 

So for example, if I want to be able to add to the Flight speed of a character who can already fly, and I also want to be able to grant the power of flight to a character who can't fly, do I have to buy Aid twice (once as "Aid" and once as "Grant") or just once (say, 4d6 Aid to Flight - average effect +7", increasing the first guy from say, 20" to 27", and increasing the second guy from 0" to 7")?

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

If you can not see the advantage of gaining a power or ability that you do not already have over improving one that you have, then there is nothing I can say to persuade you.

 

Seriously. Think it through. I'm asking for 5 or 10 points. It is not a lot.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Why not? It seems to me the rule works equally well (or is equally broken) with granting new powers as with enhancing existing ones.

 

Because boosting powers someone has already is not as powerful as giving people new powers entirely. When I've discussed this power with other Hero players, their primary concern every single time has been "but you could use it to give x powers at the same time" not "this is too powerful." And I think they have a point: one at a time is enough.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

If you can not see the advantage of gaining a power or ability that you do not already have over improving one that you have' date=' then there is nothing I can say to persuade you.[/quote']

You aren't even going to try? If you can't even present a single argument against my position, then I can only draw even more confidence in my position.

 

Seriously. Think it through. I'm asking for 5 or 10 points. It is not a lot.

I have thought it through. I've used this method for probably over 25 years playing HERO. Since 1st Edition (or whenever "Aid" or whatever it may have been called when it was first introduced). Seriously.

 

Because boosting powers someone has already is not as powerful as giving people new powers entirely.

Why? Just making the assertion doesn't give me a reason why I'm wrong. We all seem to agree that in HERO, points is points. 5 points spent in one are is equally useful to 5 points spent in another area. Yet for some as yet unknown reason, when it comes to Aid, suddenly some points are worth more than others. Remember: the first d6 of an EB costs 5 points, the fifth d6 of an EB costs 5 points, the 10th costs 5 points, as does the 20th. Why should this change with an Aid?

 

When I've discussed this power with other Hero players, their primary concern every single time has been "but you could use it to give x powers at the same time" not "this is too powerful." And I think they have a point: one at a time is enough.

Well, I'm another HERO player that you're discussing it with. I've been playing since 1st edition. I'm still waiting to see a reason why adding 5 points to a half-dozen powers I already have is less powerful than gaining 5 points of a half-dozen powers I don't already have.

 

I do have some concerns about those "multiple powers at the same time" advantages. But it seems to me that they are equally broken when applied to existing powers as they are to new powers.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

There's a big difference between making something you already have more powerful and giving you something entirely new. This is pretty intuitive, which is more powerful:

 

1) Increasing your PD by 6 points

2) Giving you 2 points of rPD when you had none

 

Or this:

 

1) Increasing your ED by 6 points

2) Giving you 6+ Mental Defense when you had none

 

Or this:

 

1) Giving you 2D6 to your blast

2) Giving you a 2D6 Flash you never had before

 

The fact is, new powers = new strategies, new flexibility, increased power. That's why powers that give you flexibility cost more than powers that increase what you have (power pool vs buying more points of DEX). It's just part of the game.

 

This is a standard of Hero, every GM I know understands this. Think about it, which would you be more careful about, 5 points to existing abilities a PC has, or 5 points for entirely new powers?

 

The answer I believe is clear: The new powers, because they make the character more powerful

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

You aren't even going to try? If you can't even present a single argument against my position' date=' then I can only draw even more confidence in my position.[/quote']

 

OK, sunshine, step outside...

 

Right, here we go. Let us take the most basic of scenariops - an aid power that grants a single extra ability - not a variety or a range.

 

Let us assume it is power defence. If you HAVE power defence, it adds, if you don't then it grants you power defence.

 

Is that unbalanced?

 

No, I don't think so - at elast not as far as the character who has the grant power, or the character who is getting it. Fromt he POV of the poor sucker who actually spent points on power defence, knowing that it is a rarely used defence (well, it is in my games) and invested that original allocation in it, then it is a real problem. Not necessecarily unbalanced, but certainly unfair.

 

There is a real difference between points you get to build the character with (including XP) and 'in game temporary freebies'. CHaractcers have had to make (often) hard decisions as to point allocation and power choices, and to have a power that can simply displace that unique feel with a sinple wave of the hand (not even an END expenditure) feels wrong. The points you start with are clearly more valuable, so some of those precious points should be invested if you want to be able to make someone's unique build less so.

 

Although, for instance, you can grant new powers with the 'transform' power, if I get some monkey coming along and saying he is Gorkon the Evolver, and he wants to add 60 points of mind control power to each of his team mates, I'll be saying 'No'.

 

 

I have thought it through. I've used this method for probably over 25 years playing HERO. Since 1st Edition (or whenever "Aid" or whatever it may have been called when it was first introduced). Seriously.

 

Hence nothing I can say will convince you otherwise - you 'know' that it works and that it does not cause problems - because that is how you do, and always have, played it. However, to introduce such a rule into a game that does not have it could have a substantial effect. OK, any new rule can be disruptive - even allowing it WITH a paid for adder can have that effect, but to me (and, apparently a number of others) that feels fairer to the chap who has taken the time to spend points on little used but occasionally very useful powers.

 

In any event, if you are playing long term with a different rule then the play adapts. If I sugegsted that we introduce a rule that targets always take at least 1 stun per DC of EB or RKA that hits them, irrespective of defences, then it would cause a bit of an outcry - but if that was the way we had always played it, then characters would be built differently - with more stun for one thing - and no one would see why a rule that allowed that should be at all problematic.

 

Now bear in mind this has taken the form of a discussion on the 'minimum utility' version of the idea - a single defined power. Add in the effect of advantages or just power frameworks, and this becomes a very powerful ability indeed, and one, IMO, that needs a comensurately higher cost to 'buy in to'.

 

 

.................................

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Or this:

 

1) Giving you 2D6 to your blast

2) Giving you a 2D6 Flash you never had before

 

The fact is, new powers = new strategies, new flexibility, increased power. That's why powers that give you flexibility cost more than powers that increase what you have (power pool vs buying more points of DEX). It's just part of the game.

 

+2d6 EB costs exactly the same as buying 2dd of Flash you never had before.

 

The VPP costs more because you can change which powers you have, so you can pick +2d56 EB when that is beneficial, or have a 2d6 Flash when this is preferable. The Aid/Bestow grants no such flexibility. If you want to have that flexibility, you pay for an advantage on your Aid.

 

This is a standard of Hero, every GM I know understands this. Think about it, which would you be more careful about, 5 points to existing abilities a PC has, or 5 points for entirely new powers?

 

The answer I believe is clear: The new powers, because they make the character more powerful

 

Most games have damage caps and/or AP caps. Few, if any, have "number of powers" caps or "number of MP slot" caps. Seems to me most GM's are more sensitive to excess levels of a single power than to excess versatility.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

There's a big difference between making something you already have more powerful and giving you something entirely new. This is pretty intuitive' date='[/quote']

Again, simply asserting that this is so doesn't provide me with any reason. I can't account for your intuition.

 

which is more powerful:

 

1) Increasing your PD by 6 points

2) Giving you 2 points of rPD when you had none

1. And the rules seem to agree with me, since (1) costs 6 points, and (2) costs 3 points.

 

1) Increasing your ED by 6 points

2) Giving you 6+ Mental Defense when you had none

 

Or this:

 

1) Giving you 2D6 to your blast

2) Giving you a 2D6 Flash you never had before

I'd say these are about the same. And the rules would seem to agree since, in both cases, they cost the same amount of points to buy.

 

The fact is, new powers = new strategies, new flexibility, increased power.

Yes, but new stragegies often = bad strategies. Giving a brick an additional 10 points of STR fits well with his existing "old" strategy. Giving him 2d6 of Flash doesn't really help him much. If he starts with 60 STR (12d6 Punch) and gets Aided to 70 (14d6), and also is given a 2d6 Flash, which power do you think willbe more effective? The 70 STR, or the 2d6 Flash?

 

New flexibility is *not* increased power. It's only increased flexibility.

 

That's why powers that give you flexibility cost more than powers that increase what you have (power pool vs buying more points of DEX). It's just part of the game.

I may be misunderstanding you here, but it seems to me the exact opposite is the case. If you've got a 60-point Multipower with three ultra slots, adding a new slot (flexibility) costs relatively little, increasing the power of the Multipower costs the full price of the increase, plus the increased cost of the slots.

 

This is a standard of Hero, every GM I know understands this. Think about it, which would you be more careful about, 5 points to existing abilities a PC has, or 5 points for entirely new powers?

They're the same. Five points is five points! *That's* the standard of Hero. What if it wasn't an Adjustment power, but the simple spending of experience points? Is spending 5 xp to increase an existing power less powerful than spending 5 xp on a new power? Do you charge a premium in your games for one but not the other?

 

The answer I believe is clear: The new powers, because they make the character more powerful

Well I'm still not sure why you believe this. And just to clarify the terminology: it doesn't make the character more powerful, it makes the character more flexible.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Is that unbalanced?

 

No, I don't think so - at elast not as far as the character who has the grant power, or the character who is getting it.

I'm glad we at least agree up to this point.

 

Fromt he POV of the poor sucker who actually spent points on power defence, knowing that it is a rarely used defence (well, it is in my games) and invested that original allocation in it, then it is a real problem. Not necessecarily unbalanced, but certainly unfair.

Now that's an argument I haven't heard before! I still don't agree with it, but it is an interesting point.

 

There is a real difference between points you get to build the character with (including XP) and 'in game temporary freebies'.

And here's why: I don't consider it a "freebie." It takes up an action from GrantMan that he otherwise could have used to directly attack the opponent. GrantMan had to spend character points on his aid that he otherwise could have used for offensive powers. And since Aid has no Range by default, he has to be right next to you and make you both a prime target for AoE attacks and the like, or he has to spend 50% more points to use the power at range. And using the example you gave, the character with, say 7 points of Power Defense paid 7 points. While GrantMan had to spend 40 points for an equivalent Aid to Power Defense (4d6 average roll: 14, halved due to being a defense power). And yes, Grantman could get away with buying only 2d6 of Aid and +2 to the maximum effect for 21 points, and then spend two actions Aiding his buddy. It's hard to call something that costs three to six times as much as normal a "freebie." And of course, most of it fades after 12 seconds, while PowDefMan gets to keep his permantently. PowDefMan is already prepared for an attack from Drainiac, whereas BuddyMan starts every encounter unprotected from Drainiac's attacks. PowDefMan can jump right into the action, while GrantMan has to spend his first phase or two Aiding BuddyMan.

 

In light of all this I really don't see this as stepping on PowDefMan's shtick.

 

Although, for instance, you can grant new powers with the 'transform' power, if I get some monkey coming along and saying he is Gorkon the Evolver, and he wants to add 60 points of mind control power to each of his team mates, I'll be saying 'No'.

Yes, this is a whole separate topic on which I think we agree. Granting powers with Transform has a lot of problems. IMO, most of these problems are solved by the Aid/Grant method because it is so much more precise, telling you exactly how much power you can get, and how to get it.

 

If I sugegsted that we introduce a rule that targets always take at least 1 stun per DC of EB or RKA that hits them, irrespective of defences, then it would cause a bit of an outcry - but if that was the way we had always played it, then characters would be built differently - with more stun for one thing - and no one would see why a rule that allowed that should be at all problematic.

I don't see this as analogous.

 

Now bear in mind this has taken the form of a discussion on the 'minimum utility' version of the idea - a single defined power. Add in the effect of advantages or just power frameworks, and this becomes a very powerful ability indeed, and one, IMO, that needs a comensurately higher cost to 'buy in to'.

But as far as I can see, the same issues exist with Aids to multiple existing powers. In any event, whether the Aided powers are in a framework or not won't really make any difference, since the effect of the Aid is the same - it applies to the full active cost of the power, not the discounted price given by the framework.

 

Examples:

If my EB slot in my Multipower costs me 6 points (being an ultra slot for a 60-point power, 12d6 EB), an Aid of 5 points to the EB, will increase the EB to 13d6, not to an ultra slot of 11 points for a 22d6 EB!

If my EB is in an EC, and only cost me 30 instead of the usual 60, the Aid of 5 points still only adds 1d6, not 2d6 for the halved price in the EC.

 

But that's a standard rule (AFAIK) that applies to Aid already.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

+2d6 EB costs exactly the same as buying 2dd of Flash you never had before.

 

Correct, that's why I picked both because they are exactly the same cost but illustrate how new powers and the flexibility that this gives is more powerful than merely gaining points in what you already had.

 

The VPP costs more because you can change which powers you have, so you can pick +2d56 EB when that is beneficial, or have a 2d6 Flash when this is preferable. The Aid/Bestow grants no such flexibility. If you want to have that flexibility, you pay for an advantage on your Aid.

 

Correct, flexibility gained by new powers is so powerful that Hero considers it more potent than merely enhancing a power you already have. That's why UBO costs more than Aid when you get it to remotely similar utility.

 

Yes, but new stragegies often = bad strategies.

 

Irrelevant, people can poorly use the powers they already have, or wisely use weaker powers. How someone implements the abilities they have is divorced from the utility of the power in its self.

 

s spending 5 xp to increase an existing power less powerful than spending 5 xp on a new power?

 

Yes.

 

Do you charge a premium in your games for one but not the other?

 

No. Players are free to spend their points on what they get, but I realize that a character who sprouts new powers is powerful in a way a character who merely enhances the ones he has already. Points are points, but flexibility being more powerful is a Hero Games standard - its why Power Pools cost more than merely the points equal to the powers they give. Because being able to do new things is powerful.

 

However, you can feel free to disagree, it's your campaign.

 

I would, however, strongly caution you to not allow characters to grant powers using the variable effect advantage, especially the +2 variant, which would allow a character to Grant/Bestow 87 powers at the same time, as long as they're all within a group of the same special effect. Good luck with that in your game.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Correct' date=' that's why I picked both because they are exactly the same cost but illustrate how new powers and the flexibility that this gives is more powerful than merely gaining points in what you already had.[/quote']

I don't see how that illustrates that at all.

 

Correct, flexibility gained by new powers is so powerful that Hero considers it more potent than merely enhancing a power you already have. That's why UBO costs more than Aid when you get it to remotely similar utility.

But it doesn't. UBO is only a +1/4 Advantage. To grant someone 20 points of power with UBO costs 25 points. To grant someone 20 points of power with Aid would cost about 60 points (or 31 points and two actions), or twice that if it's a defensive power.

 

s spending 5 xp to increase an existing power less powerful than spending 5 xp on a new power?

 

Yes.

I don't see how. Characters generally have a certain M.O. and adding powers that aren't part of that M.O. generally don't help much. Hence my example about giving the brick more STR as opposed to giving him a small Flash. It's generally not a useful strategy to try to make one type into another.

 

Players are free to spend their points on what they get, but I realize that a character who sprouts new powers is powerful in a way a character who merely enhances the ones he has already. Points are points, but flexibility being more powerful is a Hero Games standard - its why Power Pools cost more than merely the points equal to the powers they give. Because being able to do new things is powerful.

But here you're complaring flexibility to no flexibility. We agree that flexibility is more useful than no flexibility. What you need to compare is flexibility vs. the additional power you'd get otherwise.

 

For example:

50-point Multipower of 10 DC attacks

5u - Attack A

5u - Attack B

5u - Attack C

5u - Attack D

 

vs.

 

70 Attack A at 14 DC

 

I would, however, strongly caution you to not allow characters to grant powers using the variable effect advantage, especially the +2 variant, which would allow a character to Grant/Bestow 87 powers at the same time, as long as they're all within a group of the same special effect. Good luck with that in your game.

Well we're certainly in agreement on this last point. I would certainly never allow a Aid/Grant with the +2 (all powers of a given SFX) to grant more than say eight different powers (at the very most, probably more like no more than 4). Then again, in a campaign with 60 AP powers typical, that'd only be a 2d6 Aid - enough to grant a mere 7 points of power on average (halved for defensive powers) - you're not going to make much of a difference with that.

[Hierax]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

But it doesn't. UBO is only a +1/4 Advantage. To grant someone 20 points of power with UBO costs 25 points. To grant someone 20 points of power with Aid would cost about 60 points (or 31 points and two actions)' date=' or twice that if it's a defensive power.[/size']

 

This is the key argument that and Aid-Grant/Bestow is NOT over-powered relative to UBO-Grant/Bestow; well, that along with the fact that Aid fades so quickly that unless you buy down the return rate and pay even more for it.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

But it doesn't. UBO is only a +1/4 Advantage. To grant someone 20 points of power with UBO costs 25 points. To grant someone 20 points of power with Aid would cost about 60 points (or 31 points and two actions), or twice that if it's a defensive power.

 

You're correct, the base level of Usable by Others is only +1/4, that's why I stated "when you get it to remotely similar utility." The +1/4 advantage requires constant contact and line of sight. To remove those limitations, you need +3/4 additional advantage. To make the range reasonable, it's another +1/2 or more. To make you able to no longer need to maintain the power personally (go to sleep, etc) you need +1/2 more. See what I mean about cost, now?

 

As to the rest: as I said, your decision in your campaign.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I'm not suggesting you should not be able to grant powers with Aid, just that there should be an additional cost to do that, over the ability to enhance powers.

 

If for no other reason it distinguishes characters who can (just) boost existing powers from characters who can (grant+boost) powers, and better enables character concept realisation.

 

As to the cost, well, Aid has been through a lot of cost changes and, even now, is built rather oddly (why does it not cost END?) and I agree that, a small adder is not going to make a lot of difference. I don't think that there is a 'right' cost, and I don't think that points are always as exact a tool as we'd like, so I'll go with this point, and reiterate that PowDefMan may be put out.

 

Yes GrantMan may have to spend time grant/boosting the rest of the team, but, frankly, he's likely to have reduced fade rate and grant/boost everyone before the combat (time allowing).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

You're correct' date=' the base level of Usable by Others is only +1/4, that's why I stated "when you get it to remotely similar utility." The +1/4 advantage requires constant contact and line of sight.[/quote']

No it doesn't. It only requires contact (or at least "no range") to give someone the power - exactly the same as Aid. Once you've given them the power, they are free to move away, as long as they stay in LOS.

 

To remove those limitations, you need +3/4 additional advantage. To make the range reasonable, it's another +1/2 or more. To make you able to no longer need to maintain the power personally (go to sleep, etc) you need +1/2 more.

I don't know what +3/4 you're talking about, presumably +1/2 of it is Range, which is irrelevent, because Aid doesn't have Range either.

 

To get rid of the LOS and consciousness restrictions (neither of which is a particularly big deal IMO), you need 0 END and Persistant, for a total of +1 in Advantages. And the Aid still fades at 5 points per turn, so to make it "similar utility" again, we need to add at least a +1/4 Advantage. So now it's 40 points for UBO and 75 for Aid.

 

See what I mean about cost, now?

I saw what you meant before. I just think you're wrong.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

If for no other reason it distinguishes characters who can (just) boost existing powers from characters who can (grant+boost) powers' date=' and better enables character concept realisation.[/quote']

I grant you that (pun intended). That's why I said in an earlier post:

 

"And, in your opinion, should the two abilities (increasing existing and granting new) have to be bought as separate powers? That's the one area where I'm still not sure. I keep thinking of good reasons why they should be the same power and why they should be separate as well."

 

Yes GrantMan may have to spend time grant/boosting the rest of the team, but, frankly, he's likely to have reduced fade rate and grant/boost everyone before the combat (time allowing).

And that starts to get into the realm of munchkinism which applies regardless of whether it's a grant or a boost or both.

 

1d6 Aid 30 points Max (+12) (Base: 22), to SPD and DEX (+1/2), Fades 5 points per Hour (+1) (Active Points: 55) Extra Time, 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF Immobile (-2) Total cost: 13 points

 

So the whole team stands around the reflex-boosting machine for a few minutes before they go out to fight bad guys each day, and they all get +3 SPD and +10 DEX. And all it cost was for one guy to spend 13 points.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

First off, thanks for the correction, you're correct - you don't have to maintain contact without buying range... you just can't let them past a certain radius of you.

 

OK let me explain a bit more carefully. If I want to Aid someone to have +3" of running, I have to buy a 10 point power, Aid, and it gives them the power to run that much faster if I roll a 6 on the die. It doesn't matter where they go, if I'm asleep or dead, it doesn't matter if I can see them. I can give this power to as many people as I can line up and use it on. They can teleport to another planet and the power remains.

 

If I want someone to move 3" faster with UOO, I buy Running 3" with a +1/4 advantage (8 points). Here's where the problems start. First, I can't use this power on anyone else, it has to be on them, and them alone. I can't lose sight of them, because then the power simply shuts off. I have to stay conscious (and alive) or the power goes away instantly. In a game system where the rules only allow you to maintain x number of constant powers at once (not uncommon for fantasy hero) or if you're using a power framework, you can't move the points out - can't change the points to another power. They have to stay within a certain range, or the power shuts off entirely.

 

So to get it to work like Aid, I have to buy +1/4 more to have it affect more than one person at a time, +1/4 for each time I double the number that can be affected, +1/2 to use it out of line of sight. If I want to be able to go to sleep or have the power stay up when I'm stunned or KO'd, I have to buy +1/2 persistent on it again. To increase the range, I have to buy increased range over and over at +1/4 each. That's a minimum of +1 1/2 to just be able to give the power to 2 targets, at up to ACx5" range. Your 3" of running just became a 16 point power... and to make it really like Aid, you'd need at least 4 or more people, and at least 1 doubling of range to be sure. That bumps it up to 19 points or more.

 

I hope you understand what I'm talking about now. Aid is cheaper than UOO for similar effect and power. Giving someone a new power is generally more expensive than increasing one they already have. Sorry I shouldn't have done it lazy, I was trying to save time and figured you were more familiar with how Usable on Others worked.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

First off, thanks for the correction, you're correct - you don't have to maintain contact without buying range... you just can't let them past a certain radius of you.

 

OK let me explain a bit more carefully. If I want to Aid someone to have +3" of running, I have to buy a 10 point power, Aid, and it gives them the power to run that much faster if I roll a 6 on the die. It doesn't matter where they go, if I'm asleep or dead, it doesn't matter if I can see them. I can give this power to as many people as I can line up and use it on. They can teleport to another planet and the power remains.

 

For one turn. Then 5 AP fade and he'sback to that starting movement rate. If they can teleport to another planet, +3" running sems pretty low utility.

 

If I want someone to move 3" faster with UOO' date=' I buy Running 3" with a +1/4 advantage (8 points). Here's where the problems start. First, I can't use this power on anyone else, it has to be on them, and them alone. I can't lose sight of them, because then the power simply shuts off. I have to stay conscious (and alive) or the power goes away instantly. In a game system where the rules only allow you to maintain x number of constant powers at once (not uncommon for fantasy hero) or if you're using a power framework, you can't move the points out - can't change the points to another power. They have to stay within a certain range, or the power shuts off entirely.[/quote']

 

To drop the Aid fade rate far enough that the duration becomes comparable would take enough of an advantage that you could afford Persistent and a lot of simultaneous targets on that UBO running for a similar cost.

 

So to get it to work like Aid' date=' I have to buy +1/4 more to have it affect more than one person at a time, +1/4 for each time I double the number that can be affected, +1/2 to use it out of line of sight. If I want to be able to go to sleep or have the power stay up when I'm stunned or KO'd, I have to buy +1/2 persistent on it again. To increase the range, I have to buy increased range over and over at +1/4 each. That's a minimum of +1 1/2 to just be able to give the power to 2 targets, at up to ACx5" range. Your 3" of running just became a 16 point power... and to make it really like Aid, you'd need at least 4 or more people, and at least 1 doubling of range to be sure. That bumps it up to 19 points or more.[/quote']

 

Aid has no range by default. That 1d6 Aid needs to fade about 5/hour at worst to be comparable, which is a +1 advantage by itself. Persistent means the character can leave your UBO area without losing the power.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

The "ability" to give away your own abilities is already in the game -- its called Independent and its a rather large Limitation, rightfully so.

 

For a less severe version of Independent -- for instance if there is a time limit or if the abilities can be regained at will, then a reduced version of Independent (down to -0) would be appropriate.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Persistent means the character can leave your UBO area without losing the power.

 

Not according to the rules. Persistent merely means you can leave the line of sight, you still have to buy up the range. Aid is no range, but you can be a billion miles away and still maintain the Aid, which means its range is effectively infinity when compared to UOO.

 

Now, if you want to make the UOO go away in 2 turns, feel free, lets treat it as a 1 turn reusable charge. That's a 3/4 limitation to the 19 active cost (notice, the active cost is unchanged in either case): still 11 points. And your range is still limited.

 

Sorry, costs more, no matter how you slice it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Why should we make the UBO go away? Make the Aid stick around. I think you'll find that's also pretty expensive.

 

1d6 Aid, Running will require two attack actions to add +3" running. Making that fade after an hour, instead of after a turn, will require a +1 advantage, IIRC. That's 20 points to add 3" running to one target per two attack actions used.

 

+3" Running is 6 points. For +2 1/4 in advantages, it will cost the same 20 points. Using +1/2 for Persistent, it can still have +1 3/4 to increase range and make it UBO with a decent number of targets. That can achieve a reasonable range, affect a fairly decent number of people at touch range, and impact its maximum number simultaneously without requiring extra attack actions. Those extra attack actions will make a lot of difference when trying to Aid half a dozen people.

 

UBO and Aid/Bestow have very different results, but I don't believe their costs are as far off as you claim.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

How far off isn't really an issue. My point was simply what I clearly stated twice: that to get UOO to be functionally equivalent to Aid, it costs more. This being evidence that giving people new powers is more expensive and powerful than giving them preexisting powers.

 

In a way he agreed when he said he'd arbitrarily limit the variable effect advantage at the +2 level.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

CTaylor, you've been repped.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I hope that's a good thing :/

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

First off' date=' thanks for the correction, you're correct - you don't have to maintain contact without buying range... you just can't let them past a certain radius of you.[/quote']

AFAICT, there is no "radius" limitation, just Line of Sight. And unless you're in a maze, it shouldn't be difficult to stay in LOS.

 

If I want to Aid someone to have +3" of running, I have to buy a 10 point power, Aid, and it gives them the power to run that much faster if I roll a 6 on the die.

...which is a 1 in 6 chance, otherwise it takes two attack actions, which could have been spent doing something more useful.

 

It doesn't matter where they go, if I'm asleep or dead, it doesn't matter if I can see them.

If you're unconscious or dead, it probably doesn't matter that much - you'll have worse problems to worry about.

 

If I want someone to move 3" faster with UOO, I buy Running 3" with a +1/4 advantage (8 points).

7 points, actually. It rounds down.

 

Here's where the problems start. First, I can't use this power on anyone else,

For +1/4 more Advantage, you can use it on two people and you've spent only 9 points - still less than the Aid, and with only one action instead of four, and it doesn't fade. But to really compare apples to apples, the Aid should be 2d6 with Standard Effect, so you can guarantee +3" of Running with every action. That's 20 points. For 19 points using the UBO method, you can grant the power to 256 people, and it doesn't fade.

 

I can't lose sight of them, because then the power simply shuts off. I have to stay conscious (and alive) or the power goes away instantly.

Staying conscious and alive is something you probably want to do anyway, but if it bothers you, you can buy Persistant. If you don't mind being able to give the power to only 64 people, you'll still have spent only 19 points. And it still takes only one action, and it still doesn't fade.

 

In a game system where the rules only allow you to maintain x number of constant powers at once (not uncommon for fantasy hero) or if you're using a power framework, you can't move the points out - can't change the points to another power.

The same restriction applies to Aid, so there's no difference there.

 

They have to stay within a certain range, or the power shuts off entirely.

I don't think that is the case, but even if I'm wrong, you've still got 95" of range to play with. How often do a battle cover this wide of an area? If you like, you can reduce the number of recipients to 32 and increase the range to 475" almost a kilometer; or give it to 16 people and they would be able to use it from 2375" away. And at that point, you can probably drop the Persistant and bump the number recipients back up to 64, since you probably don't have to worry about being knocked out or killed if you're almost three miles away from the battle.

 

So to get it to work like Aid, ...

And how many levels down the time chart should we buy the fade rate to make the Aid comparable to UBO? At least +1/4, and likely a lot more.

 

I hope you understand what I'm talking about now.

I understood what you were talking about the first time. I understood what you were talking about the last time. I understand what you're talking about this time. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't understand. Perhaps it is you who are not understanding me.

 

I was trying to save time and figured you were more familiar with how Usable on Others worked.

I am quite familiar with how UBO works. I've been playing HERO since 1st edition. Are you familiar with how Aid works? You need to be familiar with both in order to compare them properly.