New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

[schir1964]

Grant/Bestow [Caution]

This power allows one to grant/bestow a power upon another character. The power that is granted/bestowed is defined when this power is purchased and may not be changed. Furthermore, advantage may not be applied to this power. Dice are purchased and the total rolled is the total Active Points of the granted/bestowed power.

 

Cost: 10 Points Per 1d6

 

Concept by CTaylor

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

At present you can do this with the UAA/UBO advantage or transforms. Personally I've never understood why you couldn't just use the Aid mechanic for this, possibly with a 'bestow ability' adder.

 

Bestow ability adder for Aid:

 

5 points: You can bestow a single, defined ability on a target, and it is then considered to have that abiliy at 0 active points, which you can then increase with your Aid dice.

 

+5 points for the ability to bestow twice as many abilities

 

+5 points for the ability to bestow twice as many abilities simultaneously

 

SO, for example:

 

For 5 points you could bestow FLIGHT

 

For 10 points you could bestow FLIGHT OR FORCE FIELD

 

For 15 points you could bestow FLIGHT, FORCE FIELD, FORCE WALL and ENTANGLE

 

For 15 points you could bestow FLIGHT AND FORCE FIELD

 

For 20 points you could bestow 2 of FLIGHT, FORCE FIELD, FORCE WALL and ENTANGLE simultaneously.

 

Obviously bestowing a lot of abilities simultanously is going to get expensive.

 

You might want to have an additional adder:

 

For 10 points you can bestow a framework.

[Loxly]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Besides UAA/UBO you can also use Transform.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Besides UAA/UBO you can also use Transform.

 

Usable As Attack isn't applicable because this power gives the power to the target which the target then controls.

 

Usable As Others:

1) Has the Line Of Sight restriction by default which needs to be eliminated to match this power, which makes the power cost more than the utility for some effects.

2) Allows one to grant the power to themselves. This power does not.

3) The Granter/Bestower does not pay any END for bestowing the power on the target. This power costs END as normal.

4) Has option for Simultaneous Use which this power does not. The power granted needs to be purchased separately and linked if simultaneous use is wanted.

 

Transform is the current "Catch All" power for things that can't be achieved with the other rules. Its designed use is for changing things into different things, not for granting powers. Yes, it has that capability, but I don't think it was intended for that use.

 

By adding this mechanic it takes those common builds where a power is granted and makes it simple and more balanced as any other construct available.

 

These are the differences of this power with the current rules as I understand them.

 

CTaylor would need to be consulted to ensure that what I have presented here is correct for intended use and possible variations. I'm simply guessing based on what he wrote in his post.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

...

Bestow ability adder for Aid:

 

5 points: You can bestow a single, defined ability on a target, and it is then considered to have that abiliy at 0 active points, which you can then increase with your Aid dice.

 

+5 points for the ability to bestow twice as many abilities

 

+5 points for the ability to bestow twice as many abilities simultaneously

 

SO, for example:

 

For 5 points you could bestow FLIGHT

 

For 10 points you could bestow FLIGHT OR FORCE FIELD

 

For 15 points you could bestow FLIGHT, FORCE FIELD, FORCE WALL and ENTANGLE

 

For 15 points you could bestow FLIGHT AND FORCE FIELD

 

For 20 points you could bestow 2 of FLIGHT, FORCE FIELD, FORCE WALL and ENTANGLE simultaneously.

 

Obviously bestowing a lot of abilities simultanously is going to get expensive.

 

You might want to have an additional adder:

 

For 10 points you can bestow a framework.

Actually, I think this is too cheap for granting abilities using the Aid mechanic, especially when limitations are applied to the Aid itself.

 

Just An Initial Impression

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I like the idea of an adder for Aid (or Transfer). For the most part, Aiding abilities the target already possesses is far more valuable than Aiding abilities the target lacks. Would you rather use a 6d6 EB Aid on a character with no EB, or one who already has a 12d6 EB? Similarly, would you use a STR Aid on a character with a 10 STR, or one with a 60 STR?

 

To the initial post, 10 points per d6 is what Aid costs anyway. Does it make sense that:

 

- a character who can boost an existing EB up to 60 points pays for a 10d6 Aid

 

- a character who can bestow an EB of 60 AP pays for a 10d6 Bestow

 

- a character who can do either, without knowing whether the target has an existing EB, must buy both and pay double?

 

I like Sean's approach, except that I would suggest it be simplified even further, with a 10 point adder, subject to all relevant advantages on the power, allowing the ability to be added to targets who don't have the ability to begin with.

 

I would also incorporate a reduction to the cost of the adder if the character may only Bestow, never Aid. Perhaps that halves the cost of the Adder.

 

At the end of the day, what powers a character has, and does not have, is pretty arbitrary. If I sell back 6" running, can I be Aided, since I have 0" Running as a base, not "cannot run"? What if I have 0 COM? Can it be Aided? I wouldn't have a major problem with making this a freebie on the basis that everyone has, for example, 0" Flight, 0 d6 EB and a +0/+0 Force Field.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

..................................................

I like Sean's approach, except that I would suggest it be simplified even further, with a 10 point adder, subject to all relevant advantages on the power, allowing the ability to be added to targets who don't have the ability to begin with.

 

.......................

 

 

Simple is good

[BNakagawa]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I like the idea of an adder for Aid (or Transfer). For the most part, Aiding abilities the target already possesses is far more valuable than Aiding abilities the target lacks. Would you rather use a 6d6 EB Aid on a character with no EB, or one who already has a 12d6 EB? Similarly, would you use a STR Aid on a character with a 10 STR, or one with a 60 STR?

 

To the initial post, 10 points per d6 is what Aid costs anyway. Does it make sense that:

 

- a character who can boost an existing EB up to 60 points pays for a 10d6 Aid

 

- a character who can bestow an EB of 60 AP pays for a 10d6 Bestow

 

- a character who can do either, without knowing whether the target has an existing EB, must buy both and pay double?

 

I like Sean's approach, except that I would suggest it be simplified even further, with a 10 point adder, subject to all relevant advantages on the power, allowing the ability to be added to targets who don't have the ability to begin with.

 

I would also incorporate a reduction to the cost of the adder if the character may only Bestow, never Aid. Perhaps that halves the cost of the Adder.

 

At the end of the day, what powers a character has, and does not have, is pretty arbitrary. If I sell back 6" running, can I be Aided, since I have 0" Running as a base, not "cannot run"? What if I have 0 COM? Can it be Aided? I wouldn't have a major problem with making this a freebie on the basis that everyone has, for example, 0" Flight, 0 d6 EB and a +0/+0 Force Field.

 

Mostly true. However there are some powers (like life support) where it is more advantageous to give it to somebody who lacks them rather than boosting somebody who already has them.

 

I don't see these examples as ample reason for adding another mechanic, though. An adder should suffice.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

The primary problem with giving people powers using Aid is that people can use the advantages to give more than one power at once. This makes the ability to give new powers entirely too powerful (and, possibly Aiding powers as well). If you drop that entirely from the construction, then an Aid-like power that gives powers would work.

 

Thus, while I'm not entirely opposed to an adder that does the same thing (10 points seems a bit high, maybe 5), you'd have to ban the use of those advantages to make the power work, it seems to me.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

The primary problem with giving people powers using Aid is that people can use the advantages to give more than one power at once. This makes the ability to give new powers entirely too powerful (and, possibly Aiding powers as well). If you drop that entirely from the construction, then an Aid-like power that gives powers would work.

 

Thus, while I'm not entirely opposed to an adder that does the same thing (10 points seems a bit high, maybe 5), you'd have to ban the use of those advantages to make the power work, it seems to me.

Is there anything that I need to add/remove/change in the original post?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

The primary problem with giving people powers using Aid is that people can use the advantages to give more than one power at once. This makes the ability to give new powers entirely too powerful (and, possibly Aiding powers as well). If you drop that entirely from the construction, then an Aid-like power that gives powers would work.

 

Thus, while I'm not entirely opposed to an adder that does the same thing (10 points seems a bit high, maybe 5), you'd have to ban the use of those advantages to make the power work, it seems to me.

 

 

Is it more powerful to bestow Flight, Energy Blast, Force Field and Life Support in a single attack than it is to enhance STR, DEX, PD and ED? Both would use the same advantage.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

To the initial post, 10 points per d6 is what Aid costs anyway. Does it make sense that:

 

- a character who can boost an existing EB up to 60 points pays for a 10d6 Aid

 

- a character who can bestow an EB of 60 AP pays for a 10d6 Bestow

 

- a character who can do either, without knowing whether the target has an existing EB, must buy both and pay double?

Exactly! I don't see any reason why one should pay a premium to Aid from 0. The solution I've been using for years is to simply remove the rule that says you can't Aid a power that the target doesn't already have. There's no reason for such a rule that I can see.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Is it more powerful to bestow Flight' date=' Energy Blast, Force Field and Life Support in a single attack than it is to enhance STR, DEX, PD and ED? Both would use the same advantage.[/quote']

 

That's the thing: I suspect being able to aid people's existing powers all at once is pretty powerful.

 

However, that said, if you were able to give people superpowers, you could take joe average and turn him into a brick with not very many points at all using Grant (or Bestow). Aid is pretty impressive in boosting the power of characters, but think about what a Grant defenses power could do. Say, 3D6, lasts a day, gives Power, Flash, Mental Defenses, and Lack of Weakness. Everyone in a supergroup would have it immediately, thus negating a lot of powers that otherwise might be pretty effective - even with the halving rule still in place for adjustment powers on defenses.

 

Requiring this one at a time would control this effect on a campaign. Just being able to hand out Mental Defense can make a pretty big difference in a campaign.

 

I personally believe that there ought to be two powers to do the two things: on effectively cheaper (costing no END) to boost powers, and one effectively more expensive (costs END) to give powers they don't have to begin with.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

That's the thing: I suspect being able to aid people's existing powers all at once is pretty powerful.

 

Yes it is. It's also possible under the rules, and simply needs to be monitored.

 

However' date=' that said, if you were able to give people superpowers, you could take joe average and turn him into a brick with not very many points at all using Grant (or Bestow). [/quote']

 

I can use Aid to create a pretty good brick. I can boost his STR, CON, BOD, PRE, PD, ED, REC, STUN and END. I can't, however, grant him any rDEF. But an elephant already has a tiny amount of rDEF, so I can Aid him up to NukeProof. Is there a compelling reason that the target can't start at 0 rDEF and be Aided up?

 

Aid is pretty impressive in boosting the power of characters' date=' but think about what a Grant defenses power could do. Say, 3D6, lasts a day, gives Power, Flash, Mental Defenses, and Lack of Weakness. Everyone in a supergroup would have it immediately, thus negating a lot of powers that otherwise might be pretty effective - even with the halving rule still in place for adjustment powers on defenses.[/quote']

 

It's also clearly mechanical. So now everyone has 9 points in each defense. So do all villains, since, if this power is OK for the heroes, it's also OK for the villains, right? Swap that out for 3d6 to PD, ED, REC and DEX. Everyone gets +9 PD, +9 ED, +9 REC and +6 DEX. Is that less powerful? Better yet, make it "any four characteristics". I can vary it with each use so everyone also gets +18 STR, +9 CON, +9 BOD, +18 INT, +9 Ego, +18 PRE, +36 COM, +18 STUN, +36 END and +1 SPD.

 

The key here is reasonable players and good judgment from the GM - for both constructs - not a blanket "it's impossible".

 

By the way, that construct is, what, 30 x [1 + 1.5 + 1] isn't it? For 105 points, it should be good! I can probably buy considerable Flash, Mental, Power DEF and LoW UBO (say 8 others; +1), Persistent (+1/2) for 105 points. Looks like I can get 10 points of Mental and LoW and 11 poinst of Flash and Power. And it has no fade rate.

 

Requiring this one at a time would control this effect on a campaign.

 

Multipower. VPP. +1/4 "any one defensive power, one at a time".

 

My key issue, by the way, is not that this may not be overpowered but that, if it is, the existing Aid power and/or advantages to affect multiple abilities at once is just as overpowered. That being the case, we need to fix the existing mechanic to deal with the overall issue, not create a new mechanic to fix only part of the problem.

 

I personally believe that there ought to be two powers to do the two things: on effectively cheaper (costing no END) to boost powers' date=' and one effectively more expensive (costs END) to give powers they don't have to begin with.[/quote']

 

I don't see the reason two abilities that do exactly the same thing should carry different costs. In fact, why should I buy 6d6 of Bestow? Why don't I buy 1d6 Bestow EB and 5d6 Aid EB? Once he has it Bestowed, I can Aid it, right? Conceptually, I find it far more logical to say that Franklin Richards has a 0 STR, and you increase that using Aid. Similarly, Ben Grimm has 0d6 EB, and you increase that using Aid.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Exactly! I don't see any reason why one should pay a premium to Aid from 0. The solution I've been using for years is to simply remove the rule that says you can't Aid a power that the target doesn't already have. There's no reason for such a rule that I can see.

 

BNakagawa makes the excellent point that where the ability to bestow applies to a 'scalable' power then the ability is not worth THAT much, but where it applies to a fixed price power, which you will either have or not, then it is of potentially huge value - the ability to bestow life support, enhanced senses or even, potentially superskills would immensely useful AND, as they are low cost powers, and many of them special powers, very cheap. I can definitely see a case for a threshold value (the adder) in such cases.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

At present you could do this:

 

1 points in power X, useable by other, 4 simultaneously, line of sight not needed after initial use: 2 points

 

This allows you to 'grant' a defined power to up to 4 people, which, as they then have the power, you could Aid.

 

Stick that in a cosmic VPP (single power) and for 3 points you can grant any power (except special powers), then aid them up to useful levels.

 

The point is you can do it leagally (if utterly wrongly on a moral basis) right now, and pretty cheaply.

 

With 15 points in transform (target to target with more powers) and half an hour to spend, you can build God.

 

I like the idea of Aid based bestowing: it is a manageable mechanic. I do think that the ability to bestow an ability is more useful than 'just' being able to boost an existing one though, so I would argue that the adder (the price of which we can dicker over) is a good way forward.

 

It is certainly abuseable, but then so is Aid, and I look very carefully at any power that has the +2 adder on it. Very carefully indeed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

BNakagawa makes the excellent point that where the ability to bestow applies to a 'scalable' power then the ability is not worth THAT much' date=' but where it applies to a fixed price power, which you will either have or not, then it is of potentially huge value - the ability to bestow life support, enhanced senses or even, potentially superskills would immensely useful AND, as they are low cost powers, and many of them special powers, very cheap. I can definitely see a case for a threshold value (the adder) in such cases.[/quote']

 

Perhaps the rule should be that certain powers cannot be Aided/Bestowed, but must be purchased as UBO. Should that list be defined as, say, Special powers, it would include all those on your list, and simply extend the "no special powers in frameworks" rule.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

That is a good point about using Grant for the basis of the power, then Aid to boost it up: that's what I do now to simulate Grant at present: a cheap minimal UBO then an Aid stacked on it to make it last. Doesn't matter if the UBO goes away - I checked this with Steve Long by the way - the Aid stays.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Perhaps the rule should be that certain powers cannot be Aided/Bestowed' date=' but must be purchased as UBO. Should that list be defined as, say, Special powers, it would include all those on your list, and simply extend the "no special powers in frameworks" rule.[/quote']

 

I think that would be a very sensible addition to the rules.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

That's the thing: I suspect being able to aid people's existing powers all at once is pretty powerful.

It is. That's why it's so expensive. If it isn't as expensive as it should be, then that's a flaw in the existing rules, not a problem with any new modification of them.

 

However, that said, if you were able to give people superpowers, you could take joe average and turn him into a brick with not very many points at all using Grant (or Bestow).

You can already do that using Aid. Or you could turn him into a Speedster if you like: Aid to Running, DEX, SPD, etc.

 

Aid is pretty impressive in boosting the power of characters, but think about what a Grant defenses power could do. Say, 3D6, lasts a day, gives Power, Flash, Mental Defenses, and Lack of Weakness. Everyone in a supergroup would have it immediately, thus negating a lot of powers that otherwise might be pretty effective - even with the halving rule still in place for adjustment powers on defenses.

That's a 105-point power you've described! Of course it's powerful! But for all that, it only grants 5 points of defense of those four types (Average roll: 10.5, halved for adjusting defensive powers). If you use this power on five people, it would have been cheaper for each of them to buy the defenses themselves for 20 each.

 

And I'll go a step farther than what I said before: I don't see any reason why Aid should have to take an advantage to be able to affect Adders. Why should a premium suddenly be applied? If a 10-point Adder costs 10 points, why should it suddenly cost more to Aid it? Note however, that I would require that the Aid be specified to Aid a particular adder when it is purchased. Aid Aids one thing at a time (unless you buy an advantage to make it variable), and if a particular power has "variants" - different adders and such - you must still specify which *one* way in which the power is being Aided.

 

For example an Aid to Running could be defined as "regular" - it adds to inches of Running as you'd normally expect. *Or* the Aid could be defined as adding Non-Combat Multiples - every 5 points of effect achieved adds an additional doubling to the NCM speed. The Aid can only do one or the other, which must be chosen at the time it is purchased. To be able to do either, would be a +1/4 Advantage (falling under the category of "Any one power of a given SFX).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

BNakagawa makes the excellent point that where the ability to bestow applies to a 'scalable' power then the ability is not worth THAT much' date=' but where it applies to a fixed price power, which you will either have or not, then it is of potentially huge value - the ability to bestow life support, enhanced senses or even, potentially superskills would immensely useful AND, as they are low cost powers, and many of them special powers, very cheap. I can definitely see a case for a threshold value (the adder) in such cases.[/quote']

I don't see why a fixed price power should cost more when Aided. If 5 points of Enhanced Senses cost 5 points, and 5 points of EB costs f5 points, why should they be treated differently when Aided?

 

Since by default, everyone has the normal senses, shouldn't you be able to Aid their senses by adding Enhanced Perception? for example.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I don't see why a fixed price power should cost more when Aided. If 5 points of Enhanced Senses cost 5 points, and 5 points of EB costs f5 points, why should they be treated differently when Aided?

 

Since by default, everyone has the normal senses, shouldn't you be able to Aid their senses by adding Enhanced Perception? for example.

 

I'd say 'No'.

 

I'm not sugegsting that a fixed price power should cost more when aided (or if I did, I apologise - I did not mean to), but I'm saying I can see a lot of sense in requiring a threshold cost before you can bestow senses.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

I'd say 'No'.

 

I'm not sugegsting that a fixed price power should cost more when aided (or if I did, I apologise - I did not mean to), but I'm saying I can see a lot of sense in requiring a threshold cost before you can bestow senses.

I may have misunderstood you.

 

It seems to me that even those who object to granting *new* powers (like X-Ray Vision) with Aid, generally shouldn't have a problem with basic Enhanced Perception. Just like Aiding Running or Swimming or any other default power that people already have. A normal person with 8 INT has a sight PER roll of 11-. Is it a problem to give them Enhanced Vision with an Aid? All that would do is increase their PER roll temporarily with their sight.

 

But getting back to what I would specifically object to:

If Aiding (or Bestowing) a power from by 10 points should cost the same regardless of whether it's an increase from 0 to 10, or from 10 to 20, or from 30 to 40, or from 60 to 70, or from 150 to 160.

 

What do you mean by the "threshhold" you mention above? How would it work?

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

Seems to me the idea of having a point-based system to begin with is to give a controlled structure, so values carry across to different powers. 5 points is 5 points, regardless of what power you have, if properly built. Giving someone 5 points of life support or 5 points of defense, or 5 points of energy blast all should be roughly equivalent in power.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Grant/Bestow

 

The more I think about this, the more it seems like the rules should simply state:

 

Aid may be used to give powers that a target does not already have. Using Aid in this manner is called Bestow [or Grant]. Grant/Bestow follows the same cost structure and rules as Aid normally does, but may not use the Variable Effect advantage that adjustment powers normally may.