Force Dome

[lclaudius]

How should I build a force dome able to withstand the explosion of a nuclear bomb, like the one on the Equipment Guide?

[Comic]

Re: Force Dome

 

Without DEF stats, unless doing and sustaining nuclear bomb-level damage is a routine aspect of the characters in your campaign, or vehicles, or the like.

 

Certainly, stat up the Security Systems, System Operations, Science Knowledge, etc. rolls needed to build, lower, raise or modify the thing, decide the Perks associated with having such a feature, and so on.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Force Dome

 

How big a dome are we talking? At any rate, even a small dome, built as a Force Wall, is going to be MEGA expensive with the kind of DEF it'll take to survive getting nuked. And don't forget that it's going to need Life Support (Safe Environment: Radiation) linked to it.

[lclaudius]

Re: Force Dome

 

Without DEF stats, unless doing and sustaining nuclear bomb-level damage is a routine aspect of the characters in your campaign, or vehicles, or the like.

 

Certainly, stat up the Security Systems, System Operations, Science Knowledge, etc. rolls needed to build, lower, raise or modify the thing, decide the Perks associated with having such a feature, and so on.

 

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear --- this is a piece of equipment, not a power for a character. I'm trying to create an Arkonide force dome (from Perry Rhodan) for a SF campaign. In the books, one of these was able to withstand a direct hit from a nuclear bomb.

 

Some components are obvious --- the (hardened) Force Wall itself, and an Endurance reserve. But what else is needed? The Equipment Guide lists the effects of a nuclear explosion as radiation (Drain Body, Drain CON), flash (Transform, Flash), thermal blast (RKA), EMP (Dispel), blast wave (RKA), negative pressure (RKA), and fires (RKA, Aid Fire Powers), besides the lingering effects.

 

The RKAs and flash effects can be stopped by the Force Wall if it has a high enough defense value, but what about the Drains and the Dispel?

[lclaudius]

Re: Force Dome

 

How big a dome are we talking? At any rate' date=' even a small dome, built as a Force Wall, is going to be MEGA expensive with the kind of DEF it'll take to survive getting nuked. And don't forget that it's going to need Life Support (Safe Environment: Radiation) linked to it.[/quote']

 

It has a radius of five kilometers. Yeah, it's really big. But in these books there are multi-kilometer ships and gigaton bombs, their scales are huge.

 

I'm not concerned about the cost, but I want it to be thorough --- I don't want one of the players to come with a "Aha! This dome does not protect against such-and-such nuclear effect, you're toast!"

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Dome

 

I don't have the Equipment Guide in front of me to check out the exact nuke build you are referencing, but Force Walls can include Power Defense (and Flash and Mental Defense); that would cover the Drains.

[lclaudius]

Re: Force Dome

 

I don't have the Equipment Guide in front of me to check out the exact nuke build you are referencing' date=' but Force Walls can include Power Defense (and Flash and Mental Defense); that would cover the Drains.[/quote']

 

That should do the trick, I'll take a closer look at the Force Wall rules. Thanks!

[JmOz]

Re: Force Dome

 

Desolid, only vs damage done by nuke, UBO, AE, probably cheaper

[Sean Waters]

Re: Force Dome

 

You cannot create a 'perfect' defence to an attack unless you know what that attack is ahead of time. If someone builds a nuke with an NND or indirect, or enough levels of penetrating or just spends more points on damage, no force wall in the world wil help you, if it is not designed to neutralise that. Hero's flexibility is a blessing and a curse.

 

So, job one is look at the build of the nuke or, if you are GM, standardise the build of nukes.

 

Then it is just a matter of spending the points to stop it.

 

Personally it sounds more like a GM device to me, and I'd be damned if I bothered stating it out.

[lclaudius]

Re: Force Dome

 

Desolid' date=' only vs damage done by nuke, UBO, AE, probably cheaper[/quote']

 

You're probably right, but in the books it is a force dome to protect a base, so I think it's better to go with force wall.

[lclaudius]

Re: Force Dome

 

You cannot create a 'perfect' defence to an attack unless you know what that attack is ahead of time. If someone builds a nuke with an NND or indirect, or enough levels of penetrating or just spends more points on damage, no force wall in the world wil help you, if it is not designed to neutralise that. Hero's flexibility is a blessing and a curse.

 

So, job one is look at the build of the nuke or, if you are GM, standardise the build of nukes.

 

Then it is just a matter of spending the points to stop it.

 

With HDv3 to crunch the numbers, I have arrived at the following:

 

Force Dome: (Total: 2528 Active Cost, 1251 Real Cost) Force Wall (150 PD/150 ED/150 Power Defense/150 Flash Defense: Sight Group; 2" long and 1" tall) (Opaque Hearing Group), Hardened (+1/4), MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4) (2268 Active Points); OIF Bulky Durable (-1), Restricted Shape (Dome) (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1008) plus Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing) (10 Active Points); OIF Bulky Durable (-1) (Real Cost: 5) plus Endurance Reserve (227 END, 227 REC) Reserve: (250 Active Points); OIF Bulky Durable (-1) (Real Cost: 238)

I'm considering that Power Defense will also work against the Dispel Electronic Devices (EMP).

 

Personally it sounds more like a GM device to me, and I'd be damned if I bothered stating it out.

 

I thought of simply doing it by GM fiat, but stating it out gives me a baseline for force domes in the campaign. Later, it'll feature big starships capable of withstanding several nukes, I have to have an idea of the order of magnitude of the attacks and defenses involved.

[JmOz]

Re: Force Dome

 

You're probably right' date=' but in the books it is a force dome to protect a base, so I think it's better to go with force wall.[/quote']

 

That actualy would make it cheaper, a power bought by a base automaticaly covers the whole base and all within (IE, Life support is for the base not one individual)

 

So Desolid, only to protect from damage coming into the base, this assumes you cannot attack out...

[lclaudius]

Re: Force Dome

 

That actualy would make it cheaper, a power bought by a base automaticaly covers the whole base and all within (IE, Life support is for the base not one individual)

 

So Desolid, only to protect from damage coming into the base, this assumes you cannot attack out...

 

Hm... This would actually open a whole new can of worms. I mean, this is a Space Opera campaign, not a Supers one. Giving the players the ability to desolidify would be too much, I think. I already deleted mind-control devices (present in the books) so as not to give them a too easy ride.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Dome

 

The "Desolid as Invulnerability" idea is a logical inconsistency that causes more problems than its worth IMO. Sure, I've used it on occasion myself as an easy out, but it really just illustrates a gap in the rules.

 

If points are not the issue, which is the case here, it should be avoided.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Force Dome

 

The "Desolid as Invulnerability" idea is a logical inconsistency that causes more problems than its worth IMO. Sure, I've used it on occasion myself as an easy out, but it really just illustrates a gap in the rules.

 

If points are not the issue, which is the case here, it should be avoided.

 

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

There have been quite a few threads over the years, and very interesting too, on 'invulnerability', and being able to withstand a nuke is not far off IMO. The problem with desolidification is, as Killer Shrike says, logical inconsistency.

 

Although you have a broad remit to apply sfx, you can't use them to actually change the power mechanically, except perhaps in very minor ways, and desolidification is a power that makes the user (or base) intangible, rather than indestructible.

 

Anyway, unless you also exclude the advantage 'affects desolid' from your campaign, I can bet that nukes will soon incorporate that...

[braincraft]

Re: Force Dome

 

Will any character ever be able to penetrate the shield using anything less than a nuclear weapon? Will any character ever actually carry one around with him and use it on anything like a regular basis?

 

If the answers are no, then forget about statting it. It has a DEF of One Hojillion and an AoE Radius of One City. It can deflect a nuclear blast, which does exactly One Hojillion BODY damage, and has whatever other powers are needed to deflect the secondary effects of the blast.

 

It really doesn't seem worth the bother. Did you stat up the sun, too? (Images, only to create light, megascale a hundred million miles across, plus Damage Shield a Hundred Hojillion BODY damage AoE Radius plus Flash however many frickin' dice)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Force Dome

 

Will any character ever be able to penetrate the shield using anything less than a nuclear weapon? Will any character ever actually carry one around with him and use it on anything like a regular basis?

 

If the answers are no, then forget about statting it. It has a DEF of One Hojillion and an AoE Radius of One City. It can deflect a nuclear blast, which does exactly One Hojillion BODY damage, and has whatever other powers are needed to deflect the secondary effects of the blast.

 

It really doesn't seem worth the bother. Did you stat up the sun, too? (Images, only to create light, megascale a hundred million miles across, plus Damage Shield a Hundred Hojillion BODY damage AoE Radius plus Flash however many frickin' dice)

 

 

Hojillion? Hojillion?

 

You're making that up!

[lclaudius]

Re: Force Dome

 

Will any character ever be able to penetrate the shield using anything less than a nuclear weapon? Will any character ever actually carry one around with him and use it on anything like a regular basis?

 

Actually, yes and yes. This is the first phase of the campaign, when the Earth first meets the extra-terrestrial technology. A single Earth nuke can't destroy the dome (although three can do the trick), but later on starships carrying shields of the same order of magnitude regularly try to blow each other to bits.

[casualplayer]

Re: Force Dome

 

Nukes: the poster child for stat creep. You may also want to give some thought to ratcheting down the DCs and taking advantage of Megascale. I mean, 5d6KA done to each individual hex in an Area Effect is enough to cause the massive, widescale damage of a nuclear weapon. That much BODY damage will ravage any structure that isn't reinforced and flatten anything made of wood. Remember 16 BODY Killing damage is enough to turn a person to ash.

 

Aside from that though, Iclaudius, I like your Force Dome construct.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Force Dome

 

Nukes: the poster child for stat creep. You may also want to give some thought to ratcheting down the DCs and taking advantage of Megascale. I mean, 5d6KA done to each individual hex in an Area Effect is enough to cause the massive, widescale damage of a nuclear weapon. That much BODY damage will ravage any structure that isn't reinforced and flatten anything made of wood. Remember 16 BODY Killing damage is enough to turn a person to ash.

 

Aside from that though, Iclaudius, I like your Force Dome construct.

 

Person: ash. Tank: new paint job.

 

I'm all for ratcheting down nuke damage though. I mean, you can blow a hole clear through the planet with 84 BODY. I'm thinking 30 to 40 BODY is more than enough*. Around 10d6 Killing, or about 150 points worth (before, you know, AoE and such). More or less the only things on the planet that can survive that are superheroes. Of course most nukes also have horrendous drains and/or NNDs, so not that many of the superhero community would be around afterwards either. Realistically your supershield could be an awful lot cheaper then, without actually sacrificing the OMG factor.

 

Still nice concept and build. Tecnhically if it can stop one nuke it can stop as many as hit it. You might build in some limtiation on the REC of the END reserve, or even ont he whole build, to reflect the fact that it cannot keep stopping nukes indefinitely. Tell me, will you actually be rolling the dice for the nuke damage

 

 

*Of course I also think that falling damage is too high.

[lclaudius]

Re: Force Dome

 

Still nice concept and build. Tecnhically if it can stop one nuke it can stop as many as hit it. You might build in some limtiation on the REC of the END reserve' date=' or even ont he whole build, to reflect the fact that it cannot keep stopping nukes indefinitely. Tell me, will you actually be rolling the dice for the nuke damage [/quote']

 

 

Ok, good point on the REC.

 

As for the damage... that's what the Hero Central dice roller is for, isn't it? That's where I'm GMing the campaign (Projeto Terra, if anyone wants to take a look --- but it's in Portuguese...).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Force Dome

 

Ok, good point on the REC.

 

As for the damage... that's what the Hero Central dice roller is for, isn't it? That's where I'm GMing the campaign (Projeto Terra, if anyone wants to take a look --- but it's in Portuguese...).

 

That's cheating! You ought to use real dice: you'd need a force dome to protect you from that lot

[braincraft]

Re: Force Dome

 

Actually' date=' yes and yes. This is the first phase of the campaign, when the Earth first meets the extra-terrestrial technology. A single Earth nuke can't destroy the dome (although three can do the trick), but later on starships carrying shields of the same order of magnitude regularly try to blow each other to bits.[/quote']

 

Use Desolid for 'mega-damage' defenses (limited to 'only vs non-massive damage), and use Affects Desolid, single special effect (mega-damage defenses) for mega-damage attacks.

 

Believe me, it's a lot easier than counting 500 dice.

[casualplayer]

Re: Force Dome

 

Use Desolid for 'mega-damage' defenses (limited to 'only vs non-massive damage), and use Affects Desolid, single special effect (mega-damage defenses) for mega-damage attacks.

 

Believe me, it's a lot easier than counting 500 dice.

 

Mega damage?! That's Riftsspeak!

 

jk/

[braincraft]

Re: Force Dome

 

Mega damage?! That's Riftsspeak!

 

jk/

 

So you don't want to see my HERO writeup for a cyborg mutant psychic magic cosmic knight true atlantean?