Variable power pool? Questions...

[Shakram]

How exactly does variable power pool work?

 

1. Say I want to make a character that has the ability to mimic other powers and recall them when desired.

 

2. As his power level increases let's say from absorption or transfer(with infinate fade rate) he is able to increase the strength of the powers and use more at once.

 

3. Add characteristics to that and various skills. For example boosting my speed then changing to boosting strength, then a skil or martial art.

 

Could anyone help me out with this?

[Alibear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

A Variable Power Pool cab be the most complicated power to control, especially as a newbie.

 

If, and it's a big if, you want to recall powers and make them up on the fly you have to know the Hero Rules back to front, top to bottom or it's a nightmare for you, the Gm and the other players.

 

If you do take a VPP make sure you only use powers you define inbetween game sessions nothing you define as you go.

 

 

I suggest you go back and read the relevant section of the book and ask yourself if this really is what you want?

[Tonio]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

1. if you can mimic powers you see, and use them any time from then on, I'd call that a -0 limitation (at best, a -1/4), since your pool will eventually (soonish?) be unlimited, and "powers you've seen" isn't necessarily limited to powers you've seen in actual gameplay; your character can use powers s/he's seen while you weren't playing him/her (i.e. powers s/he's seen in the backstory you write for him/her, powers seen between gaming sessions, on tv, etc.)

 

2. Read the section on positively adjusting power frameworks under adjustment powers in the handbook... it has an example of Aiding a VPP. Basically, you can boost the pool (and control cost) itself, which will allow you to use more powers, but won't make those powers more powerful. You can, additionally, boost individual powers (you need to have boosted the pool enough to "hold" the newly boosted power). Also note there's no such thing as "infinite fade rate". You can make it long enough to be virtually inifinite (say, 100 years?), but it'll cost you a lot. I'd suggest spending XP to make the VPP larger to reflect this.

 

3. Characterstics can't be bought in Frameworks, so I'd suggest going with Aid or Succor (possibly with standard effect) in the VPP for this.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

How exactly does variable power pool work?

 

1. Say I want to make a character that has the ability to mimic other powers and recall them when desired.

 

2. As his power level increases let's say from absorption or transfer(with infinate fade rate) he is able to increase the strength of the powers and use more at once.

 

3. Add characteristics to that and various skills. For example boosting my speed then changing to boosting strength, then a skil or martial art.

 

Could anyone help me out with this?

 

2. You would need to buy the appropriate Absorbtion and Transfer powers outside of the VPP.

 

3. Obtain permission from your GM to use points from the VPP to use the Skills power and the Characteristics power.

 

4. VPPs can be extremly complicated and have been known to make the heads of even experienced HERO players explode. I can not overstate the importance of prior preperation if you choose to use one.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Let's take the example of the cosmic power pool:

 

1. You decide how much the biggest power you want to have should cost, which will set your pool size. Let us assume we are going for 40 points, which allows us to buy pretty much any power in the game.

 

2. You pay for the pool: 40 points in this case. Put that on your character sheet.

 

3. You then need a control cost which is half the pool cost, 20 points in this case.

 

4. You add advantages or limitations to the control cost: in this case 'cosmic' (0 phase to change powers, no roll) is +2, so we pay 20 x (2+1) = 60 points.

 

5. You write that down on your character sheet.

 

6. You disrupt the game, blow holes in the plot, and generally ruin it for everyone.

 

Questions?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Sigh. I let the bitterness out, didn't I?

 

What you want, to be legal*, is this:

 

70 point pool

Cosmic: 105 point control cost

Very limtied powers: only multiform -1

 

Total cost: 132 points.

 

Then you can change into any 350 point character you like, whenever you like. Do feel free to add in limitations about 'only to mimic powers i've seen' and 'only to completely do over a carefully plotted scenario that should have kept everyone amused for about 4 months'.

 

Would you like sugar with that?

 

 

* i.e. to mimic skills too

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Let's take the example of the cosmic power pool:

 

1. You decide how much the biggest power you want to have should cost, which will set your pool size. Let us assume we are going for 40 points, which allows us to buy pretty much any power in the game.

 

2. You pay for the pool: 40 points in this case. Put that on your character sheet.

 

3. You then need a control cost which is half the pool cost, 20 points in this case.

 

4. You add advantages or limitations to the control cost: in this case 'cosmic' (0 phase to change powers, no roll) is +2, so we pay 20 x (2+1) = 60 points.

 

5. You write that down on your character sheet.

 

6. You disrupt the game, blow holes in the plot, and generally ruin it for everyone.

 

Questions?

 

RE: #6 That's a little harsh, don't you think?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

RE: #6 That's a little harsh' date=' don't you think?[/quote']

 

Er...no.

[Alibear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Cosmic? He's spot on in my experience.

 

Cosmic VPPs are workable for people who can envisage a power, design it in thier head, write it out perfectly with no problems and no mistakes in 2 minutes between phase 5 and phase 8 when the GM is dealing with someone else.

 

Blokes who have been playing Hero for years, blokes who know the game every which way, back to front and in thier sleep.

 

Othewise each power has to be designd and GM approved before play begins.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Er...no.

 

He's a new player looking for help and you got a bit snarky with him. That's not exactly the most helpful thing you could have done. I just think it was a bit much. YMMV of course.

[Alibear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

He's a new player looking for help and you got a bit snarky with him. That's not exactly the most helpful thing you could have done. I just think it was a bit much. YMMV of course.

 

 

He was asking for help and advice, he was being honest. A cosmic VPP is one of the biggest game breakers possible.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

How exactly does variable power pool work?

 

1. Say I want to make a character that has the ability to mimic other powers and recall them when desired.

 

2. As his power level increases let's say from absorption or transfer(with infinate fade rate) he is able to increase the strength of the powers and use more at once.

 

3. Add characteristics to that and various skills. For example boosting my speed then changing to boosting strength, then a skil or martial art.

 

Could anyone help me out with this?

 

As an example:

 

1) 60 point Variable Power Pool, 0 Phase to Change Powers (+1), No skill roll needed to change powers (+1), Only for powers he has observed (+/- 0), Powers must have same special effect as powers observed (+/- 0) TOTAL COST 120 points.

 

You as a player would need to be responsible for writing down each power and its special effect so that you would be able to rapidly announce what powers you would be using on any given phase.

 

2) In my first post I recommended Absorption or Transfer bought outside the VPP but on second thought it really just sounds like you would need to spend Experience Points on the VPP.

 

3) You would need GM approval to use the VPP for the powers of “Skills” and “Characteristics” but you might have a problem special effect-wise. While you could make the case that observing a skill would fit the special effect of the VPP you can’t really “observe a characteristic” so your GM would probably not let that one fly. You could of course buy a separate VPP at lower power with the limitation: Only to Aid characteristics.

 

I hope you find those suggestions helpful.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

He's a new player looking for help and you got a bit snarky with him. That's not exactly the most helpful thing you could have done. I just think it was a bit much. YMMV of course.

 

I had no intention of being snarky with Shakram. I'm not often snarky and when I am I almost always regret it and feel really guilty. I've re-read what I wrote and I'm still not feeling guilty, because it wasn't aimed at Shakram and I don't think it reads that it was. I may be wrong though, and iIf Shakram does feel that was in any way 'having a go' then PM me and I'll remove the post, no hard feelings at all. Believe me the only snarkiness was directed against VPPs.

 

As a GM I tend to give new players simple characters, often patterned on familiar archetypes, whereas I find that new players often want to explore the boundaries of this infinitely flexible system.

 

I think this early and often over optimistic exploration contributes heavily to Hero's reputation as being slow to play. It isn't if you deal with the simple concepts first and move on to all-singing and all dancing later. There is SOOOO much fun to be had with simlpe, it would be a shame to miss it.

 

Seriously though, VPPs can show up the other players (you can do anything they can), slows down play a lot (as has been pointed out) and makes it much more difficult for a GM to organise a meaningful challenge: sometimes a villain you can't defeat in a straight fight is much more interesting because you have to find an unconventional solution; the VPP merchant takes that rich experience away from the play group.

 

Used appropriately for limited purposes, VPPs are a useful tool, but when you bear in mind they can be used for pretty much anything - from adding characteristics to quad penetrating killing attacks, and an immense array of defences, and you see why there is a STOP sign there.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

As an example:

 

1) 60 point Variable Power Pool, 0 Phase to Change Powers (+1), No skill roll needed to change powers (+1), Only for powers he has observed (+/- 0), Powers must have same special effect as powers observed (+/- 0) TOTAL COST 120 points.

 

You as a player would need to be responsible for writing down each power and its special effect so that you would be able to rapidly announce what powers you would be using on any given phase.

 

2) In my first post I recommended Absorption or Transfer bought outside the VPP but on second thought it really just sounds like you would need to spend Experience Points on the VPP.

 

3) You would need GM approval to use the VPP for the powers of “Skills” and “Characteristics” but you might have a problem special effect-wise. While you could make the case that observing a skill would fit the special effect of the VPP you can’t really “observe a characteristic” so your GM would probably not let that one fly. You could of course buy a separate VPP at lower power with the limitation: Only to Aid characteristics.

 

I hope you find those suggestions helpful.

 

I think it is 150 points; 60 +30 x (2+1).

 

That is the only saving grace of VPPs: the REALLY useful ones tend to be REALLY expensive. Mind you you can do something pretty cheap if you are willing to take a half phase to change and have a skill roll: the cost goes down to 105 points.

 

You can then buy a VPP skill for 3 points, and (say) +9 skill levels for a total of 21 points, and change on 14-, total cost 126 points, for only slightly less utility.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

I think it is 150 points; 60 +30 x (2+1).

 

That is the only saving grace of VPPs: the REALLY useful ones tend to be REALLY expensive. Mind you you can do something pretty cheap if you are willing to take a half phase to change and have a skill roll: the cost goes down to 105 points.

 

You can then buy a VPP skill for 3 points, and (say) +9 skill levels for a total of 21 points, and change on 14-, total cost 126 points, for only slightly less utility.

 

You are right it IS 150 points. My math sucks.

 

Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping on you before. I've just had a number of bad experiences being the new guy asking questions on a board and being jumped on. I guess it's made me sensitive.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

While I'm on a roll here, the other thing about VPPs is that the pool only represents the maximum active points of a single power, but does not restrict the number of powers so long as their total real points do not exceed 60, so, for instance, you could, with a 60 point pool, build a 12d6 EB (gestures and incantations) PLUS a 10/10 force field (gestures and incantations), and have them run at the same time.

 

Given that a lot of limtiations are far less limiting for powers in a VPP (run out of charges? build another power!) the GM has to work twice as hard to monitor submissions and should actively disallow or reduce the savings from, a lot of limtiations. For instance if the above character was entangled and could not use gestures, he could shift to an identical power set with a 14- activation roll - at elast until he is not entangled any more.

 

That is a lot of work.

 

Anyway, I've said my piece and posted my warnings. VPPS are not evil, but they can sure emulate all its powers.

[Shakram]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

I am wondering can you have transfer or absorption in the pool? Can transfer and absorption give the pool more points?

[Alibear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Only if you're playing The MunchKing!

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

I am wondering can you have transfer or absorption in the pool? Can transfer and absorption give the pool more points?

 

The by-the-book answer is yes. However most GMs won't allow it as it tends to rapidly get out of hand. Can you give us some insight into what kind of concept you are working off of so we can more closely taylor our advice?

[Tonio]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

The by-the-book answer is yes. However most GMs won't allow it as it tends to rapidly get out of hand. Can you give us some insight into what kind of concept you are working off of so we can more closely taylor our advice?

 

Y'sure? I think the book says you can't transfer/succor/aid any framework by using a power IN that framework. So you couldn't boost a VPP by using the VPP to make an Aid to VPP, but you could boost the VPP if you had an Aid to the VPP bought separately (not in the VPP).

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Y'sure? I think the book says you can't transfer/succor/aid any framework by using a power IN that framework. So you couldn't boost a VPP by using the VPP to make an Aid to VPP' date=' but you could boost the VPP if you had an Aid to the VPP bought separately (not in the VPP).[/quote']

 

You may be right.

[Shakram]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

The by-the-book answer is yes. However most GMs won't allow it as it tends to rapidly get out of hand. Can you give us some insight into what kind of concept you are working off of so we can more closely taylor our advice?

 

To sum it all up I would want a Psionic, Divine or Magical character that could have a wide range of spells which emulate various powers. Of the hero could put more power into a spell to have a greater effect.

 

For example:

The hero Shakram wants to use a heal spell on one person giving them fast healing for X amount of time, then on his next turn he tosses a magical bolt at a goblin raider, now a big serpent bursts from the tunnel wall next to the party and he and the party needs to become intangible or be smashed under the huge bulk of the magical beast so he boosts his intangible power to usuable by others in the partys radius. Finally the partys warrior squares of with the beast so he and the other wizards all concentrate their power "aid" on the warriors blade to slay the beast with an added autofire giving him multiple attacks. etc...etc...

 

Just having spell uses, creating new spells within limits(after an adventure), and learning powers/skills which are crafted into spells. I am wanting to do this without all the gestures, material components, power point depletion, spell slots, of D&D. Basically not have limitations of a D&D template, but to be more free in character creation and development.

 

Transfer and Absorption would be used to give him a better controll of his spells as his power level increased. Rather than the D&D level system he can get stronger by transforming evil energys into his power pool to be used for the cause of good.

 

Of course this would be done within limits and at a gradual progression say 30 points a month(real time).

Equals 320 points after a year(real time) which is the same as a 20th level D&D character.

 

 

I used to play D&D and Rifts but I am tired of their systems, especially the templates they give the characters. I bought my hero games books to try something new and experience more freedom in character creation & gaming.

 

That being said what I am wanting to make is something similar, but different to the D&D(psionic)Erudite or (magic using)Wizard or even the mimic of rifts~hero's unlimited . Both of the characters are able to pick up new psionic powers and spells as they find them. Usually the Psionic & Wizard charcters must make a skill check to learn a new power, then they can use it at will according to their psionic power points or assign their magic slots.

 

As far as the hero's unlimited mimic goes he just needs to be in the general area and he gets all skills, powers, and special stats.

 

 

AHH THEN THERES THE WISH SPELL.....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Adjustment powers in a VPP cannot boost the VPP pool (although it might boost other powers built within the VPP).

 

Transfer and absorbtion are short term boosts to the active points of a power. They are not particularly efficient ways of doing it. If you want to improve your 'power' then spend XP on a bigger, or more flexible, VPP.

 

Be aware that if you want to be able to reliably and instantly modify your powers, then you would need a cosmic pool, and that would cost 25 points in total for each 10 points of pool increase.

[Tonio]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Sean, are you sure you can use an Aid in a VPP to boost another power in the VPP? I'm pretty sure an Aid in an EC can't boost another power in the EC, but the rules for VPPs might be different.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variable power pool? Questions...

 

Sean' date=' are you sure you can use an Aid in a VPP to boost another power in the VPP? I'm pretty sure an Aid in an EC can't boost another power in the EC, but the rules for VPPs might be different.[/quote']

 

Not sure, no, I'll check when I get home but can't see any reason why not on the face of it, and an adjustment power certainly cannot boost the pool size of a framework that contains it.

 

Hmm. If you had a 60 point pool and 2 powers, say a 30 point EB and a 30 point succor, I can see an argument that you could adjust the EB up to 60 points, but to adjust it further would mean exceeding the base pool size, which you could only do by enhancing the pool itself, so it would have that as a ceiling. It is probably all spelled out somewhere - I'll check later.