Heavy armor too efficient?

[Yamo]

STR is cheap in HERO and armor is light.

 

What's stopping all the characters in my fantasy campaign from buying a 20 STR and full plate armor? It weighs in at maybe 40 kg, just 10% of their total weight allowance and not enough to impose any DCV/DEX Roll/movement penalties or long term END loss. Being equipment, it doesn't even cost points. And the high STR also has the crazily-efficient effect of boosing PD, REC, STUN, Leaping and damage.

 

On the other hand, trying to build a lightly armed/armored swashbuckling type involves a high DEX (much more expensive than STR) and lots of extra DCV and Combat Luck, which do cost points (a lot in some cases, to get similar benefits as plate mail)). And even then you're probably dead the first time you take a solid hit, unlike your plated pals. Perhaps they'll mourn your inefficient character creation skills at your funeral.

 

So why shouldn't everybody just be a tank, from the fighter to the wizard? The option seems just too powerful and cheap. From a purely metagame point-of-view, you'd almost be foolish not to, it seems. That's bad, in my experience.

 

Thoughts.

[sbarron]

You're right, Yamo. From a purely meta-gaming stand point, it does make sense to make characters utilizing this weakness in the rules to make the "best" (i.e. most powerful) characters. But the same could be said for any other genre that has a weakness like this. Supers also has very cheap strength and powers like 1d6 RKA, AE, AF(10), Penetrating attacks. The GMs job is to deal with things like this, too.

 

We've had these discussion a dozen times on the boards. There is no simple answer. Here are some of the most common:

 

1) Make heavy armors prohibatively expensive.

 

2) Make heavy armor not available.

 

3) Increase the weight of armor, increase the penalties, use 4th Ed penalty system, decrease the weight before penalties, include all equipment in weight calcs

 

4) Make Find Weakness more common/cheaper, make AP attacks more common/cheaper

 

5) Make wearing heavy armor such a pain in the ass that PCs shy away from it (rusting, develop sores, get rashes, sink like stone in water, etc.)

 

6) Make Heavy armor a status symbol in your campaign, only nobles/royalty can wear it

 

7) One I'm personally considering, make Str cost 2 pts

 

I'm sure someone else will have additional ideas.

 

Here is a thread I had a while ago that had a similar premise. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3002

[Herolover]

First, let me say I agree with you, but only up to a point.

 

You point out that STR is cheap and point to DEX. I don’t want to get into a STR is to cheap argument, but I think you are greatly overlooking the value of DEX. So you spend 13 points on STR, yes you get a lot, but I guarantee you are buying some DEX or you should. If I buy just 21 points of DEX (I don’t need much STR more than 10) I have now increased my chances to hit, chances to be missed, how quickly I go and how many times I can act.

 

Anyhoo…as I said I am not going to get into the STR is to cheap argument. However, for strong characters I have noticed that heavy armor (DEF wise at least) really doesn’t encumber a person to much. Now, my question is why do you think it SHOULD encumber people?

 

It has been proven, many times, that heavy full suits of plate armor did NOT overly greatly encumber the wearer. This is for normal people of about 8-13 STR.

 

Using the Hero system a suit of 40kg will put a in the -2 DCV/DEX, -1†movement, and cost 1 END per turn. I don’t think this is to greatly out of line with reality.

 

Now look at your character with the 18-20 STR. First let me point out that the character has the strength of a Grizzly bear. I don’t know of many people that are that strong. In fact, I know of no one that is that strong. The character you point out should be able to wear heavy armor and move around okay.

 

Now what is to keep all your players pumping all their points in STR? Nothing. What is to keep your players from pumping all their points in DEX? What is to keep all your players from making up all magic-users? I think the problem you are pointing out is a problem with roleplaying not with STR being to cheap or heavy armors being to light.

 

If you are worried about it, you can:

a) Make a house rule saying only one player can have a STR above 15.

Make a house rule saying that Metal armors automatically give a -1 DCV/DEX (or higher) penalty in addition to the penalty from encumberance.

[Yamo]

Now what is to keep all your players pumping all their points in STR? Nothing. What is to keep your players from pumping all their points in DEX? What is to keep all your players from making up all magic-users? I think the problem you are pointing out is a problem with roleplaying not with STR being to cheap or heavy armors being to light.

 

I don't much care for this argument. It's not quite fair to imply that players are just twinking because they don't want to get uttery screwed by the system.

 

Character concept is important, yes, but it's unfair to ask players who don't come to the table with a character concept of "armored tank" to take such an rules effectiveness hit versus those that do.

 

The problem is that the system has a built-in roadblock that hinders certain character concepts in fantasy games. All the players want is to be treated fairly by said system (i.e. for their 150-point unarmored swashbucker to be as "good", generally-speaking, as their buddy's 150-point armored knight). That doesn't seem unreasonable to me and I wouldn't cast aspersion on their roleplaying ability for it.

[Herolover]

Here is my point.

 

Using the same rules the I haven't seen anything that proves the 150 armored knight IS more effective in combat than the 150 point swashbucker in light armor.

 

Sure the guy in heavy armor isn't going to get hurt by many blows, but I am going to be hitting him a lot while he will be missing me.

[Herolover]

Let us put or money where are mouths are.

 

How about you make up the armor knight and I make up the "swashbucker."

 

Guidelines

*Standard character rules and limits from FRED page 15.

*Both characters have Normal Character Maxima.

*To keep the characters from being complete combat monsters we must put (I say) 50 points into "non-combat" skills.

*Limit of 20 points spend on Combat skill levels.

[Yamo]

Here is my point.

 

Using the same rules the I haven't seen anything that proves the 150 armored knight IS more effective in combat than the 150 point swashbucker in light armor.

 

Sure the guy in heavy armor isn't going to get hurt by many blows, but I am going to be hitting him a lot while he will be missing me.

 

And here's mine: Not necessarily.

 

The STR needed to wear the armor with no penalty is so cheap that the knight can still afford to be 90%+ as effective as the swashbucker with respect to DEX and CSLs and still have all the extra PD, REC, STUN, Leaping and damage. Oh, and 8 more rDEF.

 

How about you make up the armor knight and I make up the "swashbucker."

 

See, here's the problem: All I would need to do is take the stats for the swashbucker you make up, ditch a point or two of DEX to raise STR up to 18 or 20, add tankmail and the result is a strictly better character. Exactly the same except as follows:

 

Downsides:

 

CV maybe one lower before CSLs, if that.

 

Upsides:

 

More PD.

More REC.

More STUN.

More Leaping.

More damage.

More lifting/throwing ability.

8 more rDef.

 

I know which warrior I'm putting my money on in a brawl, all other things being equal. So character with high STR and tankmail is still not balanced versus same character without.

[Herolover]

If the Knight can spend his points on DEX to get the same benefit as the swashbucker, can't the swashbuckler spend his points on STR to get the same benefit as the Knight?

[AnotherSkip]

Erm actually if you Read FH you will note that Steve mentions that so long as the characters retain all of the penalties of Def 8 (or whatever) they can have it as leathor (or whatever)

 

 

Personally Im planning on making a Def 8 silk veils wearing jazzit(1 pip killing, Autofirex2, Str 8, S length) weilding character......

 

then again im weird

[Yamo]

Erm actually if you Read FH you will note that Steve mentions that so long as the characters retain all of the penalties of Def 8 (or whatever) they can have it as leathor (or whatever)

 

Not sure what you mean, as I don't have the book yet. Can you explain this statement further?

 

If the Knight can spend his points on DEX to get the same benefit as the swashbucker, can't the swashbuckler spend his points on STR to get the same benefit as the Knight?

 

Yes, but then he's chugging around in tankmail and not really much of a swashbuckler anymore. That's the problem. Characters with the same point totals have no reason not to wear heavy armor, no matter what the source material says simply because they'll be vastly superior to their counterparts that don't. You have Gandalf in plate mail, Frodo in plate mail, Legolas in plate mail. Everybody and their mother in full plate armor because it's just stupid not to be. Blah.

[Herolover]

Knight has 20 STR, DEX 10

Swashbuckler has 20 DEX, 10 STR.

Both have speed 3.

 

 

Knight has spent 20 points.

He gets +2 PD, +2 REC, and +5 STUN. Using normal sword he will do 2d6K and have 8PD armor.

He must roll 7 or less to hit swashbuckler.

The Swashbuckler has spent 30 points.

Will always go first in every phase.

Will do 1d6K with sword.

He must roll a 15 or less to hit the knight.

 

Now if the knight spends his 10 points left, to bring him even with the swashbuckler, on +5 with sword. He still has less of a chance to hit the swashbuckler than the swashbuckler has to hit him. Given average rolls the Knight will go down to STUN damage, though the swashbuckler will be seriously hurt.

 

What I want to know is where did the Knight get his heavy armor? Plate was very expensive. If you give the Knight that kind of advantage what are you giving the swashbuckler to even it out? If the Knight has the money to buy Plate then the swashbuckler has enough money to buy a “fine or masterwork†sword and is probably doing even more damage than the base 1d6.

[Yamo]

Plate was very expensive.

 

Historically, yes. At the moment, though, we're running a D&D-style campaign where it's both cheap and plentiful.

 

I've thought that perhaps magic items are the answer. If the swashbucker finds a magic ring that gives him 6 PD/6 ED armor, he's a little more balanced DEF-wise with the knight.

 

Of course, then the knight will probably just go "Hey, I want me a magic ring, too!" and run to the nearest wizard. Then I have a 14 rDEF knight on my hands.

 

Hard to do something like that without the other players wanting access to the same hardware.

[Herolover]

Originally posted by Yamo

Yes, but then he's chugging around in tankmail and not really much of a swashbuckler anymore. That's the problem. Characters with the same point totals have no reason not to wear heavy armor, no matter what the source material says simply because they'll be vastly superior to their counterparts that don't. You have Gandalf in plate mail, Frodo in plate mail, Legolas in plate mail. Everybody and their mother in full plate armor because it's just stupid not to be. Blah.

 

This is like complaining that the M1A1 Abrams Tank is too good of a weapon. Yes it is. Yes, if everyone could afford it then everyone would have it.

 

Why doesn't everyone have an Abrams Tank? Same reason everyone didn't walk around in Plate mail. Laws and Plate was EXPENSIVE.

 

Lets us your own standard. The "Swashbucker, you say can't buy up to a 20 STR because "then he isn't a swashbucker." Why do you think the Knight in armor should be allowed to buy DEX?

 

This is a chacter choice thing and RP thing not a rule thing.

[Herolover]

duplicate post.

[Yamo]

Lets us your own standard. The "Swashbucker, you say can't buy up to a 20 STR because "then he isn't a swashbucker." Why do you think the Knight in armor should be allowed to buy DEX?

 

The STR doesn't strain the character concept to the breaking point. The heavy armor does. And if you have decent STR, there's no reason not to wear the armor because you'll be flat-out better than an otherwise identical character that doesn't with no associated point cost for such superiority. That's the problem.

[Herolover]

Originally posted by Herolover

Knight has 20 STR, DEX 10

Swashbuckler has 20 DEX, 10 STR.

Both have speed 3.

 

 

Knight has spent 20 points.

He gets +2 PD, +2 REC, and +5 STUN. Using normal sword he will do 2d6K and have 8PD armor.

He must roll 7 or less to hit swashbuckler.

The Swashbuckler has spent 30 points.

Will always go first in every phase.

Will do 1d6K with sword.

He must roll a 15 or less to hit the knight.

 

Okay then my swashbucker spends 10 points on STR. I know have all the same advantages as you. I go first every time and I am hiting you a lot more than you are hitting me.

 

What can you spend 10 points on to even the score? Another +5 with Sword. (That's +10 with sword and you have spend 20 points.)

 

You have yet to answer my question. Since you are giving your knight expensive rare plate armor what are you giving my swashbuckler that is even in value?

[Yamo]

You have yet to answer my question. Since you are giving your knight expensive rare plate armor what are you giving my swashbuckler that is even in value?

 

No, I'm afraid that it's you who is not paying attention. As stated, heavy armor is neither expensive nor rare in the setting.

[Herolover]

Originally posted by Yamo

Historically, yes. At the moment, though, we're running a D&D-style campaign where it's both cheap and plentiful.

 

I've thought that perhaps magic items are the answer. If the swashbucker finds a magic ring that gives him 6 PD/6 ED armor, he's a little more balanced DEF-wise with the knight.

 

Of course, then the knight will probably just go "Hey, I want me a magic ring, too!" and run to the nearest wizard. Then I have a 14 rDEF knight on my hands.

 

Hard to do something like that without the other players wanting access to the same hardware.

 

You have fallen prey to the D&D is the way fantasy works trap. It is one reason why I dislke D&D. (Which I really don't dislike that much, it is just different, but it has ruined fantasy.)

 

You have skewed things in favor of the armor, it might be difficult getting back. This is not the fault of the HERO system and neither is it your fault. It is just a different way to play.

 

The reason D&D gets away with it is because the generailze so much that the intricacies are lost and D&D makes no difference in being not hit and being hit, but armor stopping the damage.

[Yamo]

You have fallen prey to the D&D is the way fantasy works trap.

 

Perhaps. But what the players want, the players get, or I play alone.

 

This is not the fault of the HERO system and neither is it your fault.

 

I still believe that heavy armor as written in the HERO system rules is still too effective overall for Heroic fantasy, however.

[Herolover]

Let me point out to that even in D&D the plate wearing knight with high STR will be better off than the D&D high DEX swashbucker. The 18 STR/12DEX Knight can have a +9 to AC with plate where the most the 18 DEX swashbucker can get is about a +7 AC.

[Herolover]

Originally posted by Yamo

Perhaps. But what the players want, the players get, or I play alone.

I still believe that heavy armor as written in the HERO system rules is still too effective overall for Heroic fantasy, however.

 

 

Boy do I understand that first statement. Just be glad they want to play something other than Champions.

 

As for your second statement than it is a problem with most Fantasy systems and in fact reality. Plate armor IS very effective.

 

How to fix your problem...let me think.

[Yamo]

Let me point out to that even in D&D the plate wearing knight with high STR will be better off than the D&D high DEX swashbucker. The 18 STR/12DEX Knight can have a +9 to AC with plate where the most the 18 DEX swashbucker can get is about a +7 AC.

 

Fundamentally, you're correct. A common flaw between the systems is still a flaw, though.

 

All I'm trying to do is balance the two character concepts in fights, but one having access to mega high DEF that costs no points is a huge hurdle.

[Herolover]

Originally posted by Yamo

Fundamentally, you're correct. A common flaw between the systems is still a flaw, though.

 

Why is it a flaw? If a system says guns kill people and guns are rare, but in your setting you make guns common and notice that to many people are dying that does not make the fact that guns kill people a flaw.

 

It is the same thing as if you said, "In my setting bazookas are common" and then complained that no one wore armor. The setting has given the high STR character an advantage buy making armor so cheap.

 

You wouldn't say BODY is to expensive if characters had to buy extra BODY because a setting increased the killing damage of all weapons by fourfold would you?

 

This is not a system flaw. This is a setting flaw.

[Herolover]

There really is now way, within the rules, to make the non-armor wearing character equivalent to the cheap heavy armor wearing character. You have artificially given the armor wearing character 8 DEF for free. Now, how to fix it.

 

1) If possible change the setting. Maybe something happens and metal becomes rare? Of course, with you characters now running around in metal armor they have become rich. However, a player and his money are quicker to separate then a fool and his money.

2) Begin making it so that heavy armors (DEF 6+) have an automatic -2 DCV.

3) Allow swashbucklers to purchase combat maneuvers against opponents in heavy armor.

 

Basically, by making Plate cheap, you have given the Knight an advantage. To correct the problem you must either take it away or give the “swashbuckler†an advantage that the knight cannot take. Perhaps a new weapon is invented that is deadly, but requires so great manual dexterity that a person in armor can’t weld it?

[hybris]

If I was a warlord in a setting where heavy armor was both very effective and rather cheap, I'd equip as many of my warriors with it as I could afford.

But I'd also look for ways to defeat heavy armor - especially if my usual tactics made the use of heavy armor impractical. (Maybe I'm a Mongol-style ruler who doesn't have the resources or technological know-how to get sufficient numbers of heavy armor, and who also wouldn't really want to since his entire army consists of light horse archers.)

 

That is, if something is both powerful and plentiful, everybody will try to use it.

But there will also be an arms race to develop something to defeat it - whether to gain an edge over the competition or because of bare necessity (i.e., if you can't use this cool thing yourself). And people will try to develop not only gear, but also fighting techniques that are effective against it.

 

So... If heavy armor is so plentiful in your world, maybe armor piercing weapons should be common, too. And many experienced combatants might know Find Weakness.

(Note the added benefit that neither of these tactics will significantly harm swashbuckler characters. Much the opposite, even. If they have access to such things, the gap between them and the "tanks" will shrink.)