Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

[Diamond_J]

I've tried many systems; D&D 2nd & 3rd ED, witchcraft, paranoia, Palladium, SAS (D20 version), Shadowrun 2nd 3rd & 4th ED, and most white wolf incarnations. Of all the systems I've tried I'm most comfortable running Hero's. It's gotten to the extent that I've begun converting Nightbane over to the Hero system.

The conversion is coming along but I felt I'd fish for opinions on the old Hero board. To those that aren’t familiar with Nightbane I apologize ahead of time, because this post will likely go over your head.

Some question to get things started:

What does everybody feel the base (lowest) Nightbane attributes should be?

What kind of damage should they be able to take, and how would you represent this using Hero rules?

How many points do you feel the players should be built on?

Vampires are costly; how would you convert them?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

*watches the airplane go past*

 

OW! Solar glare! The goggles! They do nothing!

 

If you can give more concrete examples (How do I get him to do this) I can be of assistance, otherwise, nyet, comrade!

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

Should we start a poll for how long it'll take for the cease & desist order to arrive?

[Diamond_J]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

Alright I was going to keep this post lose and easy so that I wouldn't influence others opinions, but I realize I'm being a little un-descriptive. Allow me to elaborate.

To keep it simple lets start with just the Nightbane them-selves.

I've begun to build them as follows:

The players must first make competent normals using the basic hero rules. They build there characters on 50pts plus 25pts from disadvantages (75pts total). I then intend to use a package deal that blankets the Nightbane and there abilities. All attribute bonuses are applicable only in full Nightbane form, when they change. I've accomplished this with the limitation of OHID(only in Heroic Identity) but the disadvantage will introduce an activation roll. The roll will be the stipulation that allows me to excuse the (-1/4) pt deduction, if you follow me.

My idea is to allow Nightbane to shift into Nightspawn form from the facade as follows: time taking one turn for no roll or a failed roll, a combat action if roll succeeded by 2, a move action if succeeded roll by 4 and a free action if the roll succeeds by 6 or more. A botched roll might mean the Nightbane may not be unable to attempt a change for a full turn or possibly a minute (haven't figured that out yet). Certain situations may incur some penalties, but the point is players would have to buy the skill separately. I don't think I'd include the skill in the starting package. Perhaps I could make the skill a Nightbane exclusive talent.

Anyway I've included in the package loose concepts like: 50 pts towards Nightbane talents of choice and 30 pts towards for customizing Nightspawn form only. This would hopefully allow players some individuality. Naturally they would have abilities that are common to all Nightbane. These Include things like mental defense 5pts, power defense 20pts only vs transforms (-1/2 or 3/4?), regeneration and the ability to pass darkly (pass through reflective surfaces into the Nightlands). These abilities would be accessible whether in Nightspawn or facade form and would not be subject to requiring a skill roll to activate.

Should talents (blatant powers) require a skill roll?

How much base strength should every Nightbane have?

How many dmg classes should they be allowed 10 or 12, inconsequential?

Should they have dmg reduction to simulate ability to absorb massive dmg?

Whatever general suggestions you may have would be much appreciated.

[Shaft]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

According to this entry, it sounds like the Nightbane should be built with a multiform.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightbane

[Diamond_J]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

It dawns on me that nobody on this forum may be familiar with the Nightbane RPG. That's fine because it really is ubscure; especially considering stores only carry lame D&D crap that's both uninteresting and uninspired. I blame nobody for this but wizards of the cash (a yet I'll likely buy the 4th ED player guide when it arrives...grown).

Although it really only helps me if your comments come from an experience of playing Nightbane, I don't wish to leave people in the dark so I will post bellow a description of the game from www.palladiumbooks.com, sorry.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The world has never quite been the same since Dark Day. The day there was no sun rise — no moon or stars for that matter — only absolute darkness and hysteria.

"It is your seventeenth birthday when "The Becoming" changes your life and your world view forever. That was the day you discovered there were two of you, your human-self and the inhuman creature you can become at will.

"You quickly learn there are "monsters" in the world, both human and supernatural, evil and good. The question is, which are you?"

The Nightbane are characters who discover that they not entirely human. In fact, they are shape-changers who possess a comparatively frail, human "facade" and a supernatural, superhuman "morphus."

The morphus is said to reflect the character's personality or subconscious fears, desires and self-image. Thus some are exotic and beautiful, while others (most) are misshapened monsters. No two appear exactly alike and even the most hideous can have the spirit of a saint, while the handsome and beautiful may be evil incarnate.

Whether hideous or beautiful, cruel or kind, the Nightbane are feared and slaughtered by most humans who see only a monster. Creatures of shadows, when slain, they disappear like the morning mist, as if they never existed (and leaving no evidence of their existence).

A surprising number of Nightbane cherish and cling to their humanity. Many of these become secret protectors of humankind and champions of good. Yet even these misbegotten heroes must operate in secret lest fearful, evil or misguided humans torment or destroy them. But there are far greater horrors loosed in the world than this. Evil Nightbane, vampires, human sorcerers, supernatural predators and other dark forces all busy building their petty power structures, preying on the weak and innocent, or engaging in foul pursuits. Worse, the Nightbane are hunted and slaughtered without just cause and without mercy by the Nightlords and their minions.

The Nightlords™ plan to quietly seize control of the world! They have already secretly infiltrated the highest levels of world government and business, and have begun to manipulate and enslave humankind. Their only opposition: humans who have uncovered the truth, vampires (rivals for world domination), and the Nightbane who have elected to fight their own kind to save the human race.

Feared and hunted by humans, the Nightlords, and the forces of evil, the Nightbane are the ultimate anti-heroes who struggle to triumph against all odds!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are other important concepts, such as the Nightlands a parallel world the exists as a reflection or shadow of our own. It's from here that the Nightlords plot and plan complete domination of earth and the subjecation of all mortals (a task which they are very close to completing). The most common enemy the Nightbane face are hounds. Hounds are constructs created by the Nightlords and there minions as there personal army and as a means to ferrite out and destroy Nightbane. The Nightbane are blessed in a way because there abilities are exceedingly damaging towards Nightlords and there minions, including the hounds. Hounds are not dog like constructs but humanoid semi sentient suits of living armor. They are dubbed such do to there ability to sense or smell supernatural presence particularly those of the Nightbane.

I can’t explain it any better then this. If you want to know more check out the palladium website: www.palladiumbooks.com. In my opinion this is by far there best product and one they foolishly don't support in favor of Rifts (a game that's become to munchkinish for my liking).

There books are dirt cheep concider picking one up a copy of Nightbane.

[Diamond_J]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

According to this entry' date=' it sounds like the Nightbane should be built with a multiform.[/quote']

 

Multiform is combersome to use in this fasion. The power Multiform should only be used if the characters abilities completely change from form to form. In the example of the Nightbane they change apearance and gain new abilities, but they do not however lose abilities or drop stats (except perhaps COM). When a wizard turns into a bird they're useing multiform because allmost all of there abilities are changed. Think of Colosus from the X-men and how he shifts form; he grows and changes into a Titanium Ossmium carbide alloy. He only gets better, his personality doesn't change and neither do his abilities. Only his mass Strength and desity are altered. Collosus is at best an OHID or complicated form of DI(density increase). In the same fassion you can only represent Nightbane in similarly.

 

As a side note I rarely ever use Multiform because it's limiting unless you want many varied forms.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

OH.

 

You're doing a MegaTen campaign! Why didn't you say so?

 

In which case, yes, these characters are all built as Multiform, for the most part. They can also pick up various familiars and spirit allies to go with them. It sounds (from what I read) that this was ripped wholesale from the ranks of Persona, Digital Devil Saga and ... Nocturne. You can find them in the links provided.

 

If that IS what you're going for, then I can be of great assistance; it'll give me an excuse to actually try and play the games again, which are very story heavy, and very very hard. If this isn't what you're looking for, then it may at least give everyone a point of reference and some plot seed material.

[Diamond_J]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

OH.

 

You're doing a MegaTen campaign! Why didn't you say so?

 

Mega what? Wasn't that a Fuzion game at one point?

 

In which case, yes, these characters are all built as Multiform, for the most part. They can also pick up various familiars and spirit allies to go with them. It sounds (from what I read) that this was ripped wholesale from the ranks of Persona, Digital Devil Saga and ... Nocturne. You can find them in the links provided. ?

 

I've played incarnations of these games all which came a few years after Nightbane was created, but yes they have a similar feel at least. The one thing I should mention however is that Unlike Degital Devil Saga or Nocturn the bulk of the world does not know of the "Demons" or in this cas denizens of the Nightlands. They cetainly don't realize the influence the forces of darkness realy have. Most people in this world are in denial (its not just a river in Egypt). There are no spirit familiars in fact there are no ghosts so to speak, uless the GM wanted to include them. Think supernatural monsters and lots of them.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

Mega what? Wasn't that a Fuzion game at one point?

 

Shin Megami Tensei is often short-handed to "MegaTen" by franchise fans. However, don't confuse the release of the games as being released after Nightbane, since the MegaTen series has been around since the late eighties, and the novels likely long before that.

[Diamond_J]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

Shin Megami Tensei is often short-handed to "MegaTen" by franchise fans. However' date=' don't confuse the release of the games as being released after [i']Nightbane[/i], since the MegaTen series has been around since the late eighties, and the novels likely long before that.

 

You must realize that japanimation (anime) did not become widely popular in Canada and the US untill the mid to late 1990's when shows such as sailor moon Hamtaro and Dragon Ball were ported to America. Yes, many people were familiar with and loved shows such as speed racer, Astro boy, Robotech and thunder cats in the 80's but few people even new they were from Japan. MegaTen as you call it, had only been released here (Canada and USA) in the mid 90's. Nightbane was created in the early 90's. At this time you would've been hard pressed to find one person out of 10 million in America that new anything about the series. I think I have better odds of wining the lottery today then Nightbane having been inspired by persona.

 

Since you have never played Nightbane it makes me wonder why you would be so certain that it's a rip off of MegaTen. I've played both and am far more informed on the matter, I know better.

 

Basicly nobody cares what came before. Everything has been done and the world of anime in particular has become very formulaic and predictable (not saying thats the case with MeggaTen).

 

Thank you for your input

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

Since you have never played Nightbane it makes me wonder why you would be so certain that it's a rip off of MegaTen. I've played both and am far more informed on the matter, I know better.

 

Basicly nobody cares what came before. Everything has been done and the world of anime in particular has become very formulaic and predictable (not saying thats the case with MeggaTen).

 

Thank you for your input

 

You must be new here.

 

I am the Lord Captain Thia Halmades. I hardly ever make assumptions -- bad for business. However, I do know trends when I see them, and then I catalog things into the places they need to be. So I've never played Nightbane, and could give a fairy hat if it came before, after, or during the construction of MegaTen, but as a devout believer in Jungian collective subconscious, and having played various Palladium games over the last few decades, I am fairly certain that it isn't "totally original." I don't care where it's from; I'm just attaching it to things that I do know so I can help you flesh out your project.

 

So before you go reading into things that ain't there, sit back, have a Coke and a smile, and tell the assembled what you want to model and how you want to model it. I can build you a multiform that looks like The Hulk and I can build you one that looks like The Wasp. Just because they're both Multiform doesn't mean it's the only way to do it or the right way to do it. Similarly, just because they both involve demons doesn't mean that Nightbane ripped off MegaTen, nor that one is superior or inferior.

 

Thank you for your opinion, though.

[Diamond_J]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

Now that were finally back on track Id like to state that I personally do not want to use multiform for Nightbane for reasons more then thoroughly explained in above posts. This has nothing to do with feeling that my way is the only way to do things. Other people may use Multiform as they wish. I personly believe(my opinion) that I would not use it for this situation, and it's my game were talking about isn't it?

 

Stop being such a damned Otaku there is more to life then anime. Everything does not need to relate back to it. That being said I have a friend that does the same thing and it's anoying. He knows it bothers me and riengns his fandom in. He's a good guy and not at all a jackass.

 

Sorry for having an opinion, oh lord god of the message board.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

Now that were finally back on track Id like to state that I personally do not want to use multiform for Nightbane for reasons more then thoroughly explained in above posts. This has nothing to do with feeling that my way is the only way to do things. Other people may use Multiform as they wish. I personly believe(my opinion) that I would not use it for this situation' date=' and it's my game were talking about isn't it?[/quote']

 

Well, this is HERO. There are no 'wrong' ways to build anything, but by all means, build it as you see fit. It is, in fact, your game.

 

Stop being such a damned Otaku there is more to life then anime. Everything does not need to relate back to it. That being said I have a friend that does the same thing and it's anoying. He knows it bothers me and riengns his fandom in. He's a good guy and not at all a jackass.

 

Sorry for having an opinion, oh lord god of the message board.

 

You're right. I'm a fatally flawed creature, and need to go and rethink my entire life's work. Thank you for this deep and compelling revelation into my character. Your insight is ... astounding. How could I have ever possibly thought that connecting two similar things would give me a deeper insight into your situation to try and help you?

 

You know. Help you. With your project. Just saying.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

Guys? Dial it down a few notches perhaps?

[csyphrett]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

As a PALLADIUM gm of twenty years, I can almost guarantee you will not be able to build characters like Nightspawn without multiform. Additionally each nightspawn is going to need a package deal which includes regeneration, armor, power defense (cannot be transformed to other forms), high charteristics, an energy reserve for talents (and some talents can use all the power in the reserve at once), extradimensional movement only through mirrors.

 

Starting nightspawn are going to be in the 400-500 range depending on what you allow just on powers.

 

the only other way to do it is build a 350 hero and make everything OHID and accidental change.

CES

[Diamond_J]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

I think we got off on the wrong foot her let me start over.

 

HY there my name is Diamond_Jack, but I've also posted as the Paragon, and Marduk(once apon a time).

 

I am curently intent on running a Nightbane game, but prefer the Hero rule system over Palladium's. Two players are on board with this idea, but the third is a firm believer in keeping systmes with there "intended" rules.

 

It sure would be great if someone on this board with some Nightbane experience would help me out. If not, any ideas from those familiar with Palladium would be cool too. I'm particulary having conversion balance issues with SDC/HIT POINTS. Palldium system is built so that characters can take a pounding but anything can hurt them from punches to bullets.

 

Do people think a damage reduction would be a good idea? I'm not sure about this because it seems to be a rather expensive thing for a racial package deal.

 

If somebody could submit a general write up or package deal who knows Nightbane that would be awsome, or maybe just a palladium to Heros coversion meathod.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

I think we got off on the wrong foot her let me start over.

 

HY there my name is Diamond_Jack, but I've also posted as the Paragon, and Marduk(once apon a time).

 

I am curently intent on running a Nightbane game, but prefer the Hero rule system over Palladium's. Two players are on board with this idea, but the third is a firm believer in keeping systmes with there "intended" rules.

 

It sure would be great if someone on this board with some Nightbane experience would help me out. If not, any ideas from those familiar with Palladium would be cool too. I'm particulary having conversion balance issues with SDC/HIT POINTS. Palldium system is built so that characters can take a pounding but anything can hurt them from punches to bullets.

 

Do people think a damage reduction would be a good idea? I'm not sure about this because it seems to be a rather expensive thing for a racial package deal.

 

If somebody could submit a general write up or package deal who knows Nightbane that would be awsome, or maybe just a palladium to Heros coversion meathod.

 

Hi there! I'm the Lord Captain Thia Halmades (although just "Thia" will suffice). The character, "The Lord Captain Thia Halmades" is from my d20 campaign that I'm still (two years later) porting over to HERO. I don't know enough about your setting, in particular, to be helpful. However, HERO already accounts for the SDC/HP mechanic via STUN/BODY, which while they may not translate exactly points-wise, are certainly nearly identical in application.

 

Damage Reduction is a /!\ power IIRC; I'm far from opposed to it, but I have a brick with DR in my campaign now and even 25% keeps that clown from taking a lot of punishment. The thing that I've found in HERO is that there are SO many ways to defend yourself that at times enough Armor/PD/ED and so on can be sufficient. It depends a lot on the power level you want to go for, and such like that.

 

Killer Shrike has a great website for d20 conversions that may be of limited use in this case; QuestionMan and Lord Liaden also have a boat load of various links, so one of them may have something that's more directly relevant to a straight Palladium conversion. If you can post some of the powers you want to translate, I'd be more than happy to give you some sample conversions and such, depending on the power level you're going for.

 

Admittedly, Palladium is a bit all over the map with its power structure, so you may well find (as I did) that HERO is just inherently better balanced for this sort of thing. Regardless, I apologize if the discussion got heated earlier. I just want to help, and understand your project well enough to post constructively.

[Diamond_J]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

As a PALLADIUM gm of twenty years' date=' I can almost guarantee you will not be able to build characters like Nightspawn without multiform. Additionally each nightspawn is going to need a package deal which includes regeneration, armor, power defense (cannot be transformed to other forms), high charteristics, an energy reserve for talents (and some talents can use all the power in the reserve at once), extradimensional movement only through mirrors.CES[/quote']

 

An energy reserve is a great idea. I could even build it with Palladiumish limitations

 

Would you put a cap on the max END reserve?

I'm thinking average reserve could be 60pts, time limitation recovery 8 per hour.

 

How high do you think the average/Max Strength should be?

 

Thanks dude.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

Killer Shrike has a great website for d20 conversions that may be of limited use in this case; QuestionMan and Lord Liaden also have a boat load of various links, so one of them may have something that's more directly relevant to a straight Palladium conversion.

 

QFT. Using search terms combined with these poster names will likely bring up some good stuff.

 

For example:

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23298&highlight=converted+System

 

Not Nightbane specific, but some of the conversions (assuming links work) to other Palladium-based systems might prove useful.

[Diamond_J]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

.

Admittedly, Palladium is a bit all over the map with its power structure, so you may well find (as I did) that HERO is just inherently better balanced for this sort of thing. Regardless, I apologize if the discussion got heated earlier. I just want to help, and understand your project well enough to post constructively.

 

That's cool arguing can be fun some times

One of my friends once said that if I didn't complain he would think something was seriously wrong and become concerned.

 

You're point about the balance issue is interesting because I've felt the same. The thing is that Nightbane are randomly generated much like in Hero's Unlimited (optional) creation system. I had players roll characters that ranged from gods to clods, so to speak. I think Hero should help balance things a bit better. That's the biggest reason I decided to switch over. Some people in my group were pissed that there characters were dwarved by other players.

 

I'll definately check out those sites you suggested.

[Shaft]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

You're point about the balance issue is interesting because I've felt the same. The thing is that Nightbane are randomly generated much like in Hero's Unlimited (optional) creation system. I had players roll characters that ranged from gods to clods' date=' so to speak. I think Hero should help balance things a bit better. That's the biggest reason I decided to switch over. Some people in my group were pissed that there characters were dwarved by other players.[/quote']

 

I have seen similar problems with Heroes Unlimited.

 

I don't know how close Nightbane characters are to Heroes Unlimited in terms of power though- most of my Palladium experience has been with HU, Ninja's & Superspies and Rifts.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

I'm familiar with Nightbane and the Palladium system in general but, alas, I fear I will not be able to help you as I feel that proper Nightbane can not be built in the HERO system without using Multiform. May I ask why you are so opposed to using it since it's tailor made for just such situations?

[csyphrett]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

An energy reserve is a great idea. I could even build it with Palladiumish limitations

 

Would you put a cap on the max END reserve?

I'm thinking average reserve could be 60pts, time limitation recovery 8 per hour.

 

How high do you think the average/Max Strength should be?

 

Thanks dude.

 

If the roll is an 11 and you add ten for PS that's a 21. Supernatural str is carry 300 times and lift five hundred times with damage added in carry 6300 pounds and lift 10,500 pounds which is a little different from hero rules on str. Something like that will be at least a 40 str.

 

Caps on the end reserve is okay but some things can blow the whole reserve in one shot. 60 is good for a start up I guess. It will seem low end. Talents can be built as multipowers with only in morphus, and other limits

CES

[csyphrett]

Re: Palladium's Nightbane for HERO's

 

I have seen similar problems with Heroes Unlimited.

 

I don't know how close Nightbane characters are to Heroes Unlimited in terms of power though- most of my Palladium experience has been with HU, Ninja's & Superspies and Rifts.

 

Night bane are HU characters with weirder powers generally. Maybe a lot more power in some ways, disads in the others.

CEs