Line of Sight, Alright?

[Sean Waters]

You know how one thing leads to another? Well, I was looking at the thread about Darkness and realised anew that darkness is a constant power and, looking up the rules for constant powers, you need to maintain LOS to them to keep them going.

 

LOS means direct perception with a targeting sense.

 

So, presumably a flash on The Lord Of Darkness that blinded him would switch off his Darkness Fields, assuming it was a sight flash, it affected him for at least a segment and sight was his only targeting sense. OK. What about other stuff?

 

What about grabbing his head and making him look the other way?

 

What about standing between him and his darkness field? What about walking up behind him; if he can't turn to face you without losing LOS (and he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head), isn't he going to be at a disadvantage in hand to hand combat?

 

Now this has never come up, really, but now I've thought about it it might. How would we be handling this then?

 

I note that mental powers, which require LOS to work, can be targeted at something you can't see. Does this mean we can ignore the rule when it suits? I mean, in practice, we ignore LOS, don't we, at least for things like maintaining constant powers, and, occasionally sneaky Ego Blasts through walls (which, let me tell you, is another horribly effective tactic, even given the reduced OCV, especially as the target isn't going to know they are under attack if you miss because the Ego Blast is a power that can't normally be perceived).

 

Should we be looking at either polishing up what we mean by LOS, or removing it as a concept entirely?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

LOS doesnt mean you literally have to be looking at something at all times, it just means that if you were to look you could. If I recall correctly there is a note in at least one place in the book that says as much.

 

 

On the subject of LOS, I've always felt its effect is rather strong for a +1/2 advantage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

LOS doesnt mean you literally have to be looking at something at all times, it just means that if you were to look you could. If I recall correctly there is a note in at least one place in the book that says as much.

 

 

On the subject of LOS, I've always felt its effect is rather strong for a +1/2 advantage.

 

 

Oh that's right, ruin my perfectly contrived point with common sense, why don't you?

 

I think there is some genuine confusion here, and it isn't just me (or maybe I'm more confused than normal). If I cover your eyes, do you have LOS? Would it be the same answer if you could move your head or if you couldn't? How long do you need to block vision for? Would the flash I mentioned (with only one segment of effect) be enough?

 

I mention this quite seriously because I've seen mentioned in discussions about LOS, the sugegstion that, for instance, a curtain blocks it. I suppose it does, but what if you peek out from behind the curtain every few seconds?

 

Persoanlly I'd probably remove the LOS consideration on constant powers and replace it with the suggestion that, once established, a power can be maintained so long as you remain within range and pay any END cost, but that the GM may determine certain barriers, obstacles, substances or circumstances that prevent a power being maintained if you don't have LOS. For example you might be able to maintain a power through an opponent's Force Wall, but not if it were hardened.

 

As to LOS being too cheap as an advantage, I agree, certainly if you can use it to target things you can't actually perceive, as the book says you can.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

If I describe how I generally handle Line Of Sight, it will of course just be my own take on it; but perhaps it would be a useful starting point for discussion.

 

In practice I consider LOS to effectively have two components, the initial targeting of an area or subject, and the continued application of a Constant Power on that area or target. For the former the attacker must have a clear, unimpeded perception of his target with a Targeting Sense. In the case of barriers that would normally block the type of Power used, the target can't be obstructed by such things, even if the Sense used can perceive the target through them.

 

Once a Constant Power has successfully hit the target, the attacker doesn't necessarily have to physically keep his eyes (or whatever sensing organ is involved) on the target at all times. IMO that goes against the spirit of the description of Constant Powers, that someone can take other actions while the Constant Attack continues to be used. However, I do require that the attacking character be able to maintain an unobstructed LOS path to the target, so that whenever he does turn his Sense back toward it it's clearly perceptible. It would usually only require a glance by the attacker to do so, unless he's so heavily distracted by other matters that he can't spare a glance.

 

However, the logic of a specific situation can affect how the particulars work out. If the target of the Power is an area, then even if the attacker is blinded by a Flash, or the area is obscured by Darkness, IMO the Constant Power should still apply to it, since the location of the area is known and the attack on that area already established. OTOH if the target is an individual, the attacker may need to be able to spot him to account for any movement away from where he was last seen, so LOS may not hold up under those circumstances. Then again, if the definition of the Attack Power is that it has some sort of automatic lock-on, the user may not need to keep track of his target past the initial successful attack. I usually chock these distinctions up to SFX and don't consider them significant enough to warrant additional Advantages or Limitations.

 

If these parameters seem problematic to some people, I sympathize; but remember that LOS is a Stop Sign Advantage, meaning it can be particularly potent in some circumstances.

 

Anyway, that's my take on it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

As to LOS being too cheap as an advantage' date=' I agree, certainly if you can use it to target things you can't actually perceive, as the book says you can.[/quote']

 

To be fair, AFAICT the only mention of not needing LOS is for the targeting of Mental Powers, if the general location of the target is known and at half OECV. Moreover, a continuing-effect Mental Power explicitly doesn't need to maintain LOS after it's successfully hit a subject, to continue to affect him, even if the attacker is still feeding END to it. The notes on Constant Powers specifically mention the need to maintain LOS, so IMO it's a different category.

[archermoo]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

To be fair' date=' AFAICT the only mention of not needing LOS is for the targeting of Mental Powers, if the general location of the target is known and at half OECV. Moreover, a continuing-effect Mental Power explicitly doesn't need to maintain LOS after it's successfully hit a subject, to continue to affect him, even if the attacker is still feeding END to it. The notes on Constant Powers specifically mention the need to maintain LOS, so IMO it's a different category.[/quote']

 

And the "Use a mental power without LOS" is an optional rule. And it only works if you are reasonably sure as to the location of your target.

[Sean Waters]

And the "Use a mental power without LOS" is an optional rule. And it only works if you are reasonably sure as to the location of your target.

 

It certainly is optional, but I'm betting the guard is in that guard hut, and being a mental power, I can shoot right through the wall...

 

I'm seriously thinking of requiring mentalists to take a 'sense mind' type detect to be able to target anything. It just doesn't make sense for an awful lot of traditional mental powers to work through vision, although stuff like hypnosis clearly should.

[archermoo]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

It certainly is optional, but I'm betting the guard is in that guard hut, and being a mental power, I can shoot right through the wall...

 

I'm seriously thinking of requiring mentalists to take a 'sense mind' type detect to be able to target anything. It just doesn't make sense for an awful lot of traditional mental powers to work through vision, although stuff like hypnosis clearly should.

 

It doesn't work through vision in the current rules. It works mind to mind. You just have to have LOS with a targeting sense to know where they are, just like with any other attack.

 

Mind scan can be that targeting sense. At which point you can target that guard on the other side of the wall with full OECV, rather than 1/2.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

It doesn't work through vision in the current rules. It works mind to mind. You just have to have LOS with a targeting sense to know where they are, just like with any other attack.

 

Mind scan can be that targeting sense. At which point you can target that guard on the other side of the wall with full OECV, rather than 1/2.

 

The only targeting sense you need for mental powers is normal vision (or any targeting sense): you don't need a targeting mental sense at all, or for that matter any mental senses at all (although mental powers give away Mental Awareness, that only detects mental powers, not minds).

 

So, whilst I agree that mental powers SHOULD be mind to mind, I'm not sure that is reflected in the rules in practice EXCEPT, as you say, through Mind Scan - but then you are likely to be paying quite a bit for mind scan. Also, Mind Scan (uniquely amongst the unadvantaged mental powers, if I recall correctly) is a constant power, which means you can not simply stick it in a MP slot, lock on, then switch to another slot to attack. That means you really will be paying a significant amount - not just the cost of a MP slot.

[archermoo]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

The only targeting sense you need for mental powers is normal vision (or any targeting sense): you don't need a targeting mental sense at all, or for that matter any mental senses at all (although mental powers give away Mental Awareness, that only detects mental powers, not minds).

 

So, whilst I agree that mental powers SHOULD be mind to mind, I'm not sure that is reflected in the rules in practice EXCEPT, as you say, through Mind Scan - but then you are likely to be paying quite a bit for mind scan. Also, Mind Scan (uniquely amongst the unadvantaged mental powers, if I recall correctly) is a constant power, which means you can not simply stick it in a MP slot, lock on, then switch to another slot to attack. That means you really will be paying a significant amount - not just the cost of a MP slot.

 

Sure it's reflected in the rules. ECV vs ECV is mind vs. mind. You're confusing the fact that you have to have some way to target your opponent as meaning that the power is working through that targeting sense. After all, I have to be able to perceive my target with a targeting sense to shoot them too, but that doesn't mean that my gun works through my eyes any more than my Ego Blast does.

 

As a note, you can target physical attacks via Mind Scan if you want. Assuming of course that the target is withing the Range of the attack. And for that matter you can shoot the guard on the other side of the wall with you gun just as easily as you can Ego Blast him. You just have to deal with the wall potentially providing him with some defense since it doesn't have the advantage of bypassing obstructions that Mental Powers do.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

Sure it's reflected in the rules. ECV vs ECV is mind vs. mind. You're confusing the fact that you have to have some way to target your opponent as meaning that the power is working through that targeting sense. After all, I have to be able to perceive my target with a targeting sense to shoot them too, but that doesn't mean that my gun works through my eyes any more than my Ego Blast does.

 

As a note, you can target physical attacks via Mind Scan if you want. Assuming of course that the target is withing the Range of the attack. And for that matter you can shoot the guard on the other side of the wall with you gun just as easily as you can Ego Blast him. You just have to deal with the wall potentially providing him with some defense since it doesn't have the advantage of bypassing obstructions that Mental Powers do.

 

You make a good point about the gun and the eyes, but I'm still having difficulty understanding how knowing 'geographically' wehre someone is allows me to read their mind, but that is largely because I'm making assumptions about how telepathy works, which is why I'm considering requiring a mental targeting sense of some sort to use it. That's not a sugegstion for Hero generally, it would just make me more comfortable

[archermoo]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

You make a good point about the gun and the eyes' date=' but I'm still having difficulty understanding how knowing 'geographically' wehre someone is allows me to read their mind, but that is largely because I'm making assumptions about how telepathy works, which is why I'm considering requiring a mental targeting sense of some sort to use it. That's not a sugegstion for Hero generally, it would just make me more comfortable [/quote']

 

I understand. If you feel that for your campaign anyone that uses a Mental Power needs to have a specific Mental Perception power to be able to target it, more power to 'ya! In fact it sounds like a potentially cool idea.

 

As to how knowing where someone is geographically allowing you to read their mind, well it doesn't directly. Having the Telepathy Power lets you read their mind. Knowing where they are geographically lets you target them with it. I'm sure it could be explained for any number of reasons:

 

Being able to see (or perceive with any other targeting sense) someone lets you concentrate your mental energies on them more effectively.

 

Knowing where someone is physically gives your mind the tag it needs to bring its power to bear on their mind.

 

But those kind of things, as you note, aren't really for the system. They're more for the setting, or at least the specific character.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

Not seeing where you're having issues around this; it's really very straightforward -- you just need to have some means of targeting an opponent just like other attacks. Mind Scan is a targeting mental sense. So is normal vision. So are some Enhanced Sense. One is free, the others aren't. The main difference is cover / concealment and incremental distance don't affect Mental Powers in the same fashion they do other Powers. Without the requirement of targeting Mental Powers would be exceptionally powerful out of the box.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

Not seeing where you're having issues around this; it's really very straightforward -- you just need to have some means of targeting an opponent just like other attacks. Mind Scan is a targeting mental sense. So is normal vision. So are some Enhanced Sense. One is free' date=' the others aren't. The main difference is cover / concealment and incremental distance don't affect Mental Powers in the same fashion they do other Powers. Without the requirement of targeting Mental Powers would be exceptionally powerful out of the box.[/quote']

 

I get it, I'm just projecting my prejudices regarding the use of mental powers onto the backdrop of a mechanical system that is perfectly capable of simulating my vision but doesn't do so as a matter of course. And why should it?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

I mainly get my notions of how telepathy works from Julian May's 'Many Coloured Land' books. Corking stuff.

[archermoo]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

I mainly get my notions of how telepathy works from Julian May's 'Many Coloured Land' books. Corking stuff.

 

I'll certainly second that.

[pawsplay]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

Unless I am mistaken,

 

The Lord of Darkness might take a penalty for using a nontargeting sense for his Darkness, but it seems unlikely he would miss. He does not literally need to see to use a Constant power. He needs to see to continue targeting a character or object.

[Ganesh]

Re: Line of Sight, Alright?

 

I can stiiiiiiiill smell yoooooooou! ::maintains darkness field::

 

OK, I'm a little punchy. But the notion of smell being used as the "LoS" sense makes things a little strange. For example, you can generally (if your nose is good enough) smell someone well after they've left the room. Tracking is based on this.