1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

[jtelson]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

So? It doesn't change my point that AP limits are not the whole picture.

 

When your go to example is a power that includes a built-in caution I'd say that it weakens your point considerably.

 

 

I think discussing mechanical balance is' date=' indeed, moot, if the moment there's a problem the response is "Well, with an attentive GM/a reasonable player that won't happen." Given both the latter are moving targets, its a bad assumption that it won't happen, and I think to the degree the game rules make it easy, there is, indeed, a mechanical problem. Whether its a terribly intrusive problem is another question.[/quote']

 

I would counter that when we're talking about powers that direct the GM to keep an eye on them or that include 'If the GM allows' options, it's perfectly reasonable to consider the importance of a reasonble player/attentive GM.

 

Since the multiform examples given only work with if a built-in 'If your GM allows' component is allowed the attentiveness of the GM is part of the topic and far from moot.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

When your go to example is a power that includes a built-in caution I'd say that it weakens your point considerably.

 

I would counter that when we're talking about powers that direct the GM to keep an eye on them or that include 'If the GM allows' options, it's perfectly reasonable to consider the importance of a reasonble player/attentive GM.

 

Since the multiform examples given only work with if a built-in 'If your GM allows' component is allowed the attentiveness of the GM is part of the topic and far from moot.

 

I agree completely.

 

Once again - the System is not your mommy. Only you (the GM and Player) can impose proper Game Balance.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

That's my point.

 

 

And I'm somewhat disagreeing with it.

 

 

The thing about these Alternate Characters (Summoned, Duplicated, etc) is

 

 

The problem is if you allow someone to buy any of them above their normal point range, that's meaningless; because they can spend part of their points to produce a result that has more overall points than the base character, therefor making any of his stuff largely moot; in practice he's traded one normal range character for one weak one and one (potentially) extremely overpowered one. With Multiform in particular, the presence of the weak one is no more a limit than Normal Identity would be, and has immensely more yield than it does.

 

And Multiform only gets you access to one set of Powers at a time.

 

Yes, a set larger than you could get buying it straight.

 

I mean, come on here; With a 300 point base character, you can have a character who otherwise is a 100 points (a perfectly capable non-combat specialist) with a 1000 point form; you won't see that in practice because Multiform has the clause you still need to pay for it in Disadvantage Points somehow, but nothing much in the power indicates those points are capped the same way the rest of the character is.

 

Where it gets particularly sticky, however, is with Summon, because Summon doesn't even specify the base; A 300 point character who does the same as the above can get a slavishly devoted 500 point combat machine, while still having enough points likely to be adequately defended, and doesn't in practice need any combat skills or abilities of his own.

 

(And yes, I'm aware there powers have a stopsign on them; that's my point; since 4th Edition the Stopsign has been pretty much shorthand for "this power isn't really balanced but we think it should be in here anyway; let the User Beware." I just don't think being in denial about their imbalance serves discussion any good).

[Diamond Spear]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Game balance needs to be a cooperative effort between the players and the GM, that's a basic tenet of the HERO system. Isn't that really the point here?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

And I'm somewhat disagreeing with it.

 

That's fine.

 

From what I'm reading your whole point is "The system should tell me what to do."

 

 

I don't agree. Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.

But the possibility should always remain.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Game balance needs to be a cooperative effort between the players and the GM' date=' that's a basic tenet of the HERO system. Isn't that really the point here?[/quote']

 

Not my point. Mine is that certain rules artifacts are, essentially, out of balance; and that the designers accept that, and I think sometimes for decent reasons. But we shouldn't kid ourselves about that fact.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

That's fine.

 

From what I'm reading your whole point is "The system should tell me what to do."

 

 

If your point is that it shouldn't, then I have to question why to bother with a point build system with an elaborate advantage/limitation/disadvantage structure. That's nothing but the system telling you what to do, in terms of what you're permitted to do within your point budget.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

(And yes' date=' I'm aware there powers have a stopsign on them; that's [i']my[/i] point; since 4th Edition the Stopsign has been pretty much shorthand for "this power isn't really balanced but we think it should be in here anyway; let the User Beware." I just don't think being in denial about their imbalance serves discussion any good).

 

I don't think anyone is in denial about them being imbalanced; that's the whole point of the warning symbols in the first place.

 

Yes, if you spend 200 points on Multiform you can get a 1000 point monster out of it. I don't see anyone denying that. In a game with Powers limited to 60 Active Points, you really can't, because the GM will say no.

 

The purpose of the Hero System is to let you model any ability you can think of. It does that. If you want to model the ability to have Joe Normal Shmoe turn into 1000 Point Monster, the system will let you. Whether you can bring that ability into a game is another story entirely.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Not my point. Mine is that certain rules artifacts are' date=' essentially, out of balance; and that the designers accept that, and I think sometimes for decent reasons. But we shouldn't kid ourselves about that fact.[/quote']

 

Okay....but that kind of goes back to my point abotu the system requireing cooperation between players and GMs to avoid balance issues. The way I'm understandign the argument the acceptance (or lack of acceptance) of that basic point is at the heart of this argument. YMMV

[hammersickle59]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Flame Wars!!!!!....Yeaaahahh!!....ok just kidding.

 

You guys arent even disagreeing with eachother. Apples and Oranges my friends.

 

Yeah...this thread has given me two days of entertainment at an otherwise dreary office job.

 

Round 3! Hagimay! (is that how you say it?)

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

I don't think anyone is in denial about them being imbalanced; that's the whole point of the warning symbols in the first place.

 

 

Then I think the most straightforward answer to the original poster would have been "Yeah, they're out of balance. So?" But that's not been the tone of some answers which added up to "Not really."

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Okay....but that kind of goes back to my point abotu the system requireing cooperation between players and GMs to avoid balance issues. The way I'm understandign the argument the acceptance (or lack of acceptance) of that basic point is at the heart of this argument. YMMV

 

And mine is that I think Hero is at its heart a bit personality-fragmented on it, and people should be aware that fact is going to lead to differences in expectation here; we are talking about about a system that goes out of its way to have a very detailed and specific incremental point build after all.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

When your go to example is a power that includes a built-in caution I'd say that it weakens your point considerably.

 

 

Not in the least, since I never qualified that statement in the first place; I was simply taking issue with the idea that Active Point limits really limit offensive output by themselves.

 

 

 

I would counter that when we're talking about powers that direct the GM to keep an eye on them or that include 'If the GM allows' options, it's perfectly reasonable to consider the importance of a reasonble player/attentive GM.

 

 

Only if you consider that a mechanical balance in the first place, rather than essentially saying that the power isn't balanced, and the GM will have to do the work. As I've noted, Hero is conflicted on this sort of thing; it does it sometimes even though its really not consistent with the ethic of the rest of the system, which is that you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get. The fact it may be necessary in some of those cases doesn't make the conflicted nature of that design any less true.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

For the record, I don't think these Powers are out of balance anymore than any other Power in the System.

 

They may be more straightforwardly blatant about how/when they become abusive. But they are not out of balance.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

For the record, I don't think these Powers are out of balance anymore than any other Power in the System.

 

They may be more straightforwardly blatant about how/when they become abusive. But they are not out of balance.

 

And that's where I'm in fairly profound and specific disagreement. I think powers that literally let you manufacture points are, on the face of it, out of balance, even if they're needed for certain purposes.

[jtelson]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

For the record, I don't think these Powers are out of balance anymore than any other Power in the System.

 

They may be more straightforwardly blatant about how/when they become abusive. But they are not out of balance.

 

With multiform at least I agree that the power minus those aspects that require special permision is not really overpowered and I don't think anyone on the super team that included Doppelgang (my Duplicating Shapeshifter) would say that Duplication in inherently overpowered.

[jtelson]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Only if you consider that a mechanical balance in the first place' date=' rather than essentially saying that the power isn't balanced, and the GM will have to do the work. As I've noted, Hero is conflicted on this sort of thing; it does it sometimes even though its really not consistent with the ethic of the rest of the system, which is that you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get. The fact it may be necessary in some of those cases doesn't make the conflicted nature of that design any less true.[/quote']

 

I think what I'm saying is that in Role Playing Games there is an organic component to mechanical balance and unlike most games that I've read (and they are legion) or played (merely many) Hero gives you roadsigns as to where those organic components will do the most good.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

I think what I'm saying is that in Role Playing Games there is an organic component to mechanical balance and unlike most games that I've read (and they are legion) or played (merely many) Hero gives you roadsigns as to where those organic components will do the most good.

 

And that's fine, but I don't really think that's an aspect of the system so much as an acknowledgement of the limits of game system.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

With multiform at least I agree that the power minus those aspects that require special permision is not really overpowered and I don't think anyone on the super team that included Doppelgang (my Duplicating Shapeshifter) would say that Duplication in inherently overpowered.

 

Even without the point break, Multiform (and to be upfront, this was just as true with earlier edition's versions of it) has one questionable balance trait; it allows you to hyper-specialized your character. Usually some amount of a character's points are spent on things that are, fundamentally, not needed at the same time. Multipowers make their living off this fact. Multiform turns the dial up to 11 on this, as it allows you to, essentially, discard any traits of a character that you don't need for one general task.

 

The iconic 4th Edition Multiform character was, in fact, a demonstrator for this: Jaguar had a human form that had all the investigative, knowledge and interpersonal skills he needed, and then his were-jaguar form that was a fighting machine.

 

This can be an excessively attractive idea outside of concept for any player who uses up a sixth of more of his points on skills, characteristics or other traits he doesn't actually need to use in combat.

 

Duplication is a lot more complex, and tends to be less of an issue, if for no other reason but most Duplicates don't vary that much from one another, so most of the most beneficial features of Multiform are moot for them, and even when they do vary, the extra overhead on Duplication isn't helping them that much compared to doing something similar with Multiform.

[jtelson]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

And that's fine' date=' but I don't really think that's an aspect of the system so much as an acknowledgement of the limits of game system.[/quote']

 

Funny, I think it's a strength.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Funny' date=' I think it's a strength.[/quote']

 

That you can do it is a strength. That you have to, isn't.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

You don't HAVE to do anything.

[archermoo]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

That you can do it is a strength. That you have to' date=' isn't.[/quote']

 

Have to do what?

 

Hero gives you a powerful toolkit. The more powerful the toolkit is, the more care you must use when you use it.

 

It's like one of my favourite lines speaking about UNIX. Paraphrased "Of course UNIX lets you do some broken things. If it stopped you from doing broken things it would also stop you from doing clever ones.".

 

That the rules need the oversight of the Ref is a strength of Hero. It isn't a video game. It is a pen and paper, face to face RPG. Something that is way overbalancing in one campaign could be trivial or even underpowered in another.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

You don't HAVE to do anything.

 

When using these powers, you certainly have to use judgement, and that's not a virtue in and of itself.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

That the rules need the oversight of the Ref is a strength of Hero. It isn't a

 

That they need them to be balanced is not. It may not in practice be a flaw in most cases, but there's nothing intrinsically good about a rules set that requires intervention to be used in a balanced way. If people want to keep telling me to the contrary, feel free, but I'm telling you flat out its not going to get anywhere.

 

That's why I say its a virtue that you can do so, but not a virtue that you must. If you feel otherwise that's your business, but frankly, I don't buy it.