Simple questions on AP caps

[Mestopheles]

Hey all, I'm starting a supers campaign where I want to start out the players at 125 points and 125 possible disads. A few quick questions-

 

1. What's a "typical" or advisable AP cap for that tier of power?

2. What cap should I put on defenses as a rule of thumb?

3. I intend to "start small" and award experience more liberally to start with so the players can "grow into" their character concepts. Assuming they grow into the next tier of power, should I adjust the AP caps up at some point? When?

4. Where could I have found these answers myself?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

You could have a starting cap and a higher campaign cap so the players could grow. I prefer the "soft Cap" approach like NCM where you can spend double to exceed the cap. ( although in my campaigns it doubles again every five points over)

What level you want if you want caps is up to you. My guys beginning characters weight in

between 300- 400 points and my soft cap is 60 AP seems to work well. A lot depends on the flavor of your game and what power levels you want also. Do You want spider-man or the Thing as the strongest guy?

[Paragon]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

An issue to consider with defenses is how you want typical fights to play out. Killing attacks tend to confuse this because the standard rule gives them so bloody much variance, but the closer the defenses are to the expected damage with normal dice, the longer the fights will go, and the less often you'll see stun results; at the other end, if you have too much damage relative to defense, you get too much opportunity for whoever gets the first shot off to be too decisive.

[Silbeg]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

Hey all, I'm starting a supers campaign where I want to start out the players at 125 points and 125 possible disads. A few quick questions-

 

1. What's a "typical" or advisable AP cap for that tier of power?

2. What cap should I put on defenses as a rule of thumb?

3. I intend to "start small" and award experience more liberally to start with so the players can "grow into" their character concepts. Assuming they grow into the next tier of power, should I adjust the AP caps up at some point? When?

4. Where could I have found these answers myself?

 

I would suggest looking at 5ER p28.

 

"Technically" your 125/125 is the "Very Powerful" Heroic level... low powered Superhero would more typically be 150/100.

 

The guidelines listed there should be pretty good for the power levels you are looking for...

 

But, personally, I don't get too bogged down with active point caps, since that does tend to limit exotic powers too much. I try to see how things balance...

 

On the other hand, this does typically mean that the max attack is 12d6 (or the equivalent) in my campaign... allowing up to 14d6 for bricks.

[Mestopheles]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

An issue to consider with defenses is how you want typical fights to play out. Killing attacks tend to confuse this because the standard rule gives them so bloody much variance' date=' but the closer the defenses are to the expected damage with normal dice, the longer the fights will go, and the less often you'll see stun results; at the other end, if you have too much damage relative to defense, you get too much opportunity for whoever gets the first shot off to be too decisive.[/quote']

 

I think I'm going to start by:

1. Making "mook" fights really easy (the players are all new to HERO and I want them to appriciate how extraordinary their abilities are)

2. Making BBEG fights long in duration (Defenses are close to expected damage) so the players can learn the real value of tactics, cordinating attacks, teamwork, END conservation, etc.

 

This will make a broad scale of challenge, but both favor the players since mooks are very little threat and BBEGs can't one-shot players or be one-shotted.

 

As time goes on, I may:

1. Make mooks a bit tougher so the don't feel like like absolute cannon fodder and

2. bump (super)heroic offense (on both sides) up in relation to defenses.

 

If attacks exceed defenses by a wider margin, "playing smart" starts to count for a lot more. If defenses are relatively high, making a dumb mistake is less likely to be fatal, but tactical excellence is also not rewarded since your brilliantly executed offensive is blunted by the BBEG's defense.

[The Main Man]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

I tend to divide the total starting points (Base + Disadvantages) by 5, with the PC's gaining +1 AP for every +5 CP they gain in play.

[Mestopheles]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

I would suggest looking at 5ER p28.

 

Thanks, I knew there had to be a chart somewhere with guidelines.

 

"Technically" your 125/125 is the "Very Powerful" Heroic level... low powered Superhero would more typically be 150/100.

 

The guidelines listed there should be pretty good for the power levels you are looking for...

 

I'm starting with 125/125 because I'm envisioning a relatively rapid climb in experience to begin with (First session or two will be "normal" exp gain, then bumped up to double ot triple gain for possibly 2-10 sessions as appropriate, then back to normal gain). The 125/125 lends itself to character expansion slightly more readily than 150/100, because once you get some more experience, you're going to be very similar to a typical 250/150 build.

 

But' date=' personally, I don't get too bogged down with active point caps, since that does tend to limit exotic powers too much. I try to see how things balance...[/quote']

I agree on this, but I'd prefer to give players a cap and then adjust on case-by-case if necessary rather than planning in advance to "nerf" a lot of proposed powers.

 

On the other hand' date=' this does typically mean that the max attack is 12d6 (or the equivalent) in my campaign... allowing up to 14d6 for bricks.[/quote']

I don't have my book in front of me (I'm at work atm)... are you saying that at 125/125 the book reccomends a 60 AP cap as a guidline?

[Mestopheles]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

I tend to divide the total starting points (Base + Disadvantages) by 5' date=' with the PC's gaining +1 AP for every +5 CP they gain in play.[/quote']

 

So in my case you'd just make the AP cap 50 across-the-board and adjust it upward on a 1/5th total basis? That makes a lot of sense in terms of simplicity. Thanks and repped.

[The Main Man]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

So in my case you'd just make the AP cap 50 across-the-board and adjust it upward on a 1/5th total basis? That makes a lot of sense in terms of simplicity. Thanks and repped.

 

Yep, that's exactly how I'd do it.

 

It creates a sense of growth, whether or not the PC's actually utilize it immediately.

 

Be careful though, because your Villains need to keep up with them too.

 

Be cautious as usual with allowing PC purchases; Make sure that there is a good reason that things get stronger; things should not become +1-2 AP stronger simply because it can.

[Paragon]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

I think I'm going to start by:

1. Making "mook" fights really easy (the players are all new to HERO and I want them to appriciate how extraordinary their abilities are)

 

 

Well, that's easy to do; if you don't pump up defenses and Stun totals and the like, almost any reasonable super tends to flatten normals pretty reliably in Hero. In most cases that's true even of agents. Classically, they've been heavy enough offense to offer concern, but go down easy.

 

 

2. Making BBEG fights long in duration (Defenses are close to expected damage) so the players can learn the real value of tactics, cordinating attacks, teamwork, END conservation, etc.

 

 

Just be aware that because of the way Recovery works, this can make for _very_ drawn out fights; if an opponent has 32 PD and ED and his attackers are using 10 dice, he's only accumulating 3 stun per successful attack, for example, and he likely bleeds off somewhere in the 6-10 range at the end of every round.

[Mestopheles]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

Well, that's easy to do; if you don't pump up defenses and Stun totals and the like, almost any reasonable super tends to flatten normals pretty reliably in Hero. In most cases that's true even of agents. Classically, they've been heavy enough offense to offer concern, but go down easy.

 

 

 

Just be aware that because of the way Recovery works, this can make for _very_ drawn out fights; if an opponent has 32 PD and ED and his attackers are using 10 dice, he's only accumulating 3 stun per successful attack, for example, and he likely bleeds off somewhere in the 6-10 range at the end of every round.

 

Thanks for the reminder... I wasn't looking at making things quite that turtley though

[Paragon]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

Thanks for the reminder... I wasn't looking at making things quite that turtley though

 

It can be a fine line though, especially if you have a group of heroes up against a single villain without backup. Over the course of a full turn, it isn't at all uncommon for a group of four heroes to be able to launch 20-24 attacks off, and depending on the CVs involved and so forth, a few stun here and there can sometimes add up pretty quickly.

[The Main Man]

Which is what Damage Reduction and Recovery are for.

[Paragon]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

Which is what Damage Reduction and Recovery are for.

 

I'm not a big fan of indiscriminate use of Damage Reduction on every master villain, and Recovery doesn't actually help necessarily, since you can have a villain taken out before his post-12 rolls around, and taking a recovery mid-fight when you're outnumbered is usually a non-starter.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

Hey all, I'm starting a supers campaign where I want to start out the players at 125 points and 125 possible disads. A few quick questions-

 

1. What's a "typical" or advisable AP cap for that tier of power?

2. What cap should I put on defenses as a rule of thumb?

3. I intend to "start small" and award experience more liberally to start with so the players can "grow into" their character concepts. Assuming they grow into the next tier of power, should I adjust the AP caps up at some point? When?

4. Where could I have found these answers myself?

 

1. For a 250 pt. campaign we use a 50 AP cap. We have played at this level alot and have found a 50 AP cap provides a good balance of power and versatility.

 

2. We use a 25/25 defense cap for this power level. A good rule of thumb is to cap defenses at half the AP cap (i.e. 25 for everything, including the exotic defenses).

 

3. Our standard caps are...

250 pts. = 50 AP cap

350 pts. = 60

450 pts. = 75

600 pts. = 90

ect.

 

4. Others have already pointed out the book chart.

[Opal]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

250 is typical of starting values for older editions. The game was a little less restrictive with frameworks and certain limitations back then, so it would be a little hard for PCs to hit a traditional 60 or 75 Apts cap while having anything much left over for skills and backgrounds, so:

 

1) 60 would be typical, I'd consider pulling back to 50 (45 is a little low).

2) back when characters tended to be around 250 points, AC did a poll, and found the average DEF was around 25, though it varied quite a lot. I'd actually vary the cap: for 'low'-DCV, low SPD characters, 25; for 'normal' characters, 20, for martial artists and speedsters 15. That's a bit like eyeballing a rule of X. You can also use the same Apt cap, which'd give you a 25/25 FF or 16/16 Armor for instance. If you want to really keep a lid on things, you do that for all defense, combined (including levels, ego def, etc)

3) You don't have to, you can let exp broaden the characters rather than make thier primary attacks and defenses more powerful. If you started at 50, though, going up to 60 would be fine. If you institute a DC cap of 12, going to 75, so character can play around a bit with advantages that don't boost DC might be good.

4) :shrug: I'm going purely on experience.

[Kdansky]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

What is the avantage of using damage reduction for villains? It's complicated math and has no purpose!

 

BODY 25

STUN 100

PD 30

ED 30

CON 30

no DR

 

vs

BODY 15

STUN 50

PD 30

ED 30

CON 30

DR 50%

 

Exact same outcome, but first fight is easier to calculate (no additional division) and *can* be stunned, which is usually interesting. I have dropped DR from nearly all villains I had because if I spend the points for ED + PD DR at 50% level (resistant), I could just buy twice as much stun (or even con/str, giving points out in return). And that's if you even care for points.

[The Main Man]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

What is the avantage of using damage reduction for villains? It's complicated math and has no purpose!

 

BODY 25

STUN 100

PD 30

ED 30

CON 30

no DR

 

vs

BODY 15

STUN 50

PD 30

ED 30

CON 30

DR 50%

 

Exact same outcome, but first fight is easier to calculate (no additional division) and *can* be stunned, which is usually interesting. I have dropped DR from nearly all villains I had because if I spend the points for ED + PD DR at 50% level (resistant), I could just buy twice as much stun (or even con/str, giving points out in return). And that's if you even care for points.

 

Well, yes, this is true, and I point it out to my players when they consider buying it that all they really are doing is buying more BODY and STUN essentially, but maybe it's psychology?

 

However, Damage Reduction has a more defined purpose when it is up against more exotic attacks which don't affect BODY or STUN.

[Mestopheles]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

Thanks guys, I have 4 players (and maybe a fifth) and none have played HERO before. Fortunately they all seem to grasp the underlying theme of chargen (to wit, anything is fine the concept isn't consistent with the campaign and setting. Let me worry about how t's written and I'll show you what I'm doing to help you learn)

 

One of the guys is asking if he can base his character on "Sonny" (the robot) in I, robot. This is a little amusing because it recalls a question I've though of in the past- To those of you who have seen the movie, what is Sonny's DEX anyway? It's clearly superhuman, but what would you rate it at?

[Silbeg]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

What is the avantage of using damage reduction for villains? It's complicated math and has no purpose!

 

There are a couple of places where it makes a lot of sense.

 

1. The opponent is larger than man-sized. This is a good way to scale damage up to larger creature sizes. A dinosaur doesn't necessarily have better defenses than a human, but being so large (talking T-Rex, or Godzilla), that damage doesn't probably do as much real damage to it. Thus, the reduction.
   
2. You want a "tough" opponent, but want to leave the target able to take damage. If the campaign's normal damage is in the 35-42 range, then having 45 DEF means that most attacks will not take any damage, and those that do won't do much. However, if the same target has DEF 25, with 50% reduction, the characters have the ability to "nickle-and-dime" the target to unconsciousness.
   
3. You don't want a powerful opponent taken out completely by a lucky punch. DR tends to mitigate that situation.

There are definitely costs and benefits to using Damage Reduction for opponents. I would argue that they are significantly inflated when used for a PC. For villains, I tend to use the 50%, or nothing, because the math is the easiest.

[Kdansky]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

Double the stun and body value of the BBEG in question, add some con. Same effect, even easier to do the math (no division involved). Now, if you talk abot 75%, it's different, that one is actually point-efficient. The 50% one costs about the same as buying up body and stun would cost (body gives lots of free stun, that helps!)

[Opal]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

The point of DR is that you can take just p or e or put a limitation on it. It simulates a character who is particularly resistant to some attacks or in some circumstances.

 

For instance, you can have STN-only DR to represent 'pain resistance' on a character who's otherwise normal in the stats department, maybe even one with NCM.

 

DR with a roll (activation, DEX, acrobatics maybe) can represent 'rolling with the blow' or otherwise evading damage, for a character that, again, is not supposed to have superhuman stats or defenses.

 

A fire based character can have 3/4 DRe, only vs fire.

 

And so forth.

 

 

You could probably accomplish many of the same things with higher BOD, CON and STN, perhaps bought as powers, and with Vulnerabilities. Instead of 20 CON & BOD, 40 Stun and 1/2 DRe vs Fire, you could build a fireproof character with extra resistant ED, and BOD & CON of 40, and 800 STN, and Vulnerability: takes double damage from anything except fire. But would you want to?

[Paragon]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

Well, yes, this is true, and I point it out to my players when they consider buying it that all they really are doing is buying more BODY and STUN essentially, but maybe it's psychology?

 

 

Well, to be fair, its more Body, Stun, Con and Recovery, since the divided stun effectively comes back faster and is less likely to Stun someone too.

[Paragon]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

The point of DR is that you can take just p or e or put a limitation on it. It simulates a character who is particularly resistant to some attacks or in some circumstances.

 

 

The only problem with it there, like with regular flawed defenses, is that its often too expensive for its utility. Even if you gave it a -2 Limitation for Only versus Fire (and I believe the canonical is only a -1) 50% resistant DR versus it is, what, 20 points? That's quite a lot for something that comes up in a small number of attacks, and probably even less after it becomes known you're resistant to it.

[Vestnik]

Re: Simple questions on AP caps

 

Even if you gave it a -2 Limitation for Only versus Fire (and I believe the canonical is only a -1) 50% resistant DR versus it is' date=' what, 20 points? [/quote']

 

In the published writeups, I think it's only -1/2 (!).