Is this a legal Elemental Control?

[Kdansky]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

I sometimes houserule allow people to put smallish powers into ECs (which then just covers half of whatever the AP are). Mind link (up to 512 targets, any dimension, any target) is just pointless, but if you reduce it to be outside of your 60 AP EC, it suddenly is limited to only 4 people (any target, this planet), which is a huuuuuge difference, but going from 30 to 25 points in cost. That's just wrong. So in that case, I allowed 40 points AP, 20 of which the 60 AP EC covers and 20 which you have to pay yourself. So the slot went from 30 to 20 and lost 33% of it's power, which is fair in my mind.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

I sometimes houserule allow people to put smallish powers into ECs (which then just covers half of whatever the AP are). Mind link (up to 512 targets' date=' any dimension, any target) is just pointless, but if you reduce it to be outside of your 60 AP EC, it suddenly is limited to only 4 people (any target, this planet), which is a huuuuuge difference, but going from 30 to 25 points in cost. That's just wrong. So in that case, I allowed 40 points AP, 20 of which the 60 AP EC covers and 20 which you have to pay yourself. So the slot went from 30 to 20 and lost 33% of it's power, which is fair in my mind.[/quote']

 

Or you could just "pad" the small power with a bunch of Difficult To Dispel Advantages.

[Kdansky]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

Yeah, I mean, you can always power up a 40 point power to 60 points, but that's quite pointless (pun intended). I'd rather have my player take the sensible 40 AP one and still get something out of his EC (in this case, paying 20 instead of 30), so he lost 20 AP in the process (and now has a decent, but not ridiculous power), and got 10 real points (which is decent, but not *that* much). That's fair.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

I've never built an EC before but think it fits in this instance. The character has heat (but not fire) based powers.

 

20 Pt EC

 

edit: Force Field 20pd/ed

Flight 20"

EB 12d6

Invisibility to sight group

 

for a total cost of 120 points.

 

Opinions welcome.

 

Many have spoken about the legality in terms of points-wise. I'd like to talk about legality in a slightly less concrete area -- F/X-wise.

 

The one power I have a problem with is Invisibility. I just can't see a "heat distortion" rendering something perfectly invisible to the entire Sight Group.

 

And No Fringe? C'mon, heat distortion causes all sorts of wiggly lines in the air -- hardly "No Fringe". I might consider Invisibility w/ Bright Fringe to be valid for the F/X.

 

A possible alternative could be a No Range Change Environment with negatives to PER Rolls -- and raises the temperature as well.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

True, but that is really a limtiation on the EC, not on the MP. Moreover givent he very different ways in which MPs and ECs react to drains, it would be really quite difficult to administer (to drain a MP you need to drain the pool and all the slots IIRC)

 

The way to do it then would be to work out the discount if you allowed a link in both difrections: the limtiation ont he MP would be -0, as demonstrated. The limtiation for linking th eEC to the MP (if you could do that) would be far more difficult because, although you start off with a -1/2 base, you have the probelem that you are linking a set of constant powers to an instant power: technically you could only use the EC when attacking. If that is the case, then you could take a limtiation, certainly, if not, well, it isn't really linked, and if it was it still probably wouldn't be worth anything.

 

I can see that 'draining one framework drains another' is a limtiation, of course, I'm just not sure that, fitting in with existing limtiation values, it is one worth a point discount.

 

As written the Limitation works BOTH ways.

If 1 power in the Elemental Control OR the Multipower is drained ALL the powers (in both framewords) are equally drained.

The Limitation is not worth a (-1/4) if this is not done.

 

There is no such thing as draining the Reserve of a Multipower (or Control Cost of a EC or Pool of a VPP for that matter).

Adjustment powers can only affect the powers inside of a Reserve.

 

Remember, an EC is just a fancy way of describing a common integrated special effect. The Limitation just means that ALL powers taking it are considered part of the same integration.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

True, there is no "Drain EC Reserve" or "Suppress MP Pool".

 

But any negative adjustment on a power in a stock (i.e, Non-Limited) EC adjusts not only that slot, but the Reserve as well, which lowers all slots by that amount. This means that the "target" power(s) in the EC gets hit for twice the effect that gets though Power Defense. Which is something I think is a little excessive, what with it already affecting the whole EC via the Reserve.

[incrdbil]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

This means that the "target" power(s) in the EC gets hit for twice the effect that gets though Power Defense. Which is something I think is a little excessive' date=' what with it already affecting the whole EC via the Reserve.[/quote']

 

It is. I play it as simply draing all of the Ec powers just once, not twice. Thats a big enough drawback without getting a sort of no point vulnerability added.

[Kdansky]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

I don't see the problem with "heat does not fit invisibility".

 

Heat distorts air, making things on the other side look weird.

Instead of just looking weird, the light rays get bent around the character.

Fringe or not: If the player wants No Fringe, there you go. He's just good at it.

 

I despise the "omg but this SFX cannot do that!". That's pointless and will only make players change their concept to accomodate that. In this case: Take "Psychic Energy Powers, I can manipulate stuff with my will" and nobody will question you, because that SFX has been portrayed with Flight, Invis and EB. If my character who uses his heat powers only gets access to half the powers I want but the other character gets who has "technical gadgets that do stuff" can buy *anything*, then I'm not playing a heat character a second time. "Heat" is not a SFX that has soooo many advantages that it makes sense to disallow powers.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

I realize that is a concern, but contend that it is not pointless -- it serves to encourage believability in character concepts/powers. But at the same time I honestly feel that some F/X bias against certain powers/advantages. Steam-Powered Battlesuit? Okay. Flight? No problem. Force Field? Okay. Life Support? Sure. FTL? I would have to draw the line there.

 

Though admittedly, if the player had a really good rationalization, and it didn't abuse or break the game-world, then I could quite possibly change my mind.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

Steve: I had thought about making the invisibility into images. I don't like the no fringe thing, which is why I'd much rather pull it out of the EC or change the EC point total to accomodate the base, no adders, invisibility. I think we have the same idea here on how the SFX is going to apply in this instance. Thanks for the idea about change environment. I'll give that a go when I can look at the book again.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

Steve: I had thought about making the invisibility into images. I don't like the no fringe thing' date=' which is why I'd much rather pull it out of the EC or change the EC point total to accommodate the base, no adders, invisibility. I think we have the same idea here on how the SFX is going to apply in this instance. Thanks for the idea about change environment. I'll give that a go when I can look at the book again.[/quote']

 

Thanks.

 

Another thought. In addition to the Images PER modifiers, it would be appropriate to link DCV Skill Levels to the power. Even though they can tell you are over there, you're so blurry that a precise hit is less likely.

 

I wouldn't go overboard on the Change Environment PER penalties. IIRC, just like those from Shrinking, they don't automatically make it harder to see you unless you are trying to not be perceived.

 

Hmm. The PER penalties of Change Environment cost 3 pts each, the same as those bought though Images. Using Either power would require you to buy Personal Immunity unless you wanted the character to be equally affected...

 

Really, the simplest way to model it IMO is with a Bright Fringed Invisibility. Make it Zero END, and Link a Temperature Raising Change Environment and it'll fit in the EC (IIRC).

 

How's this:

 

Heat Distortion Aura: Invisibility to Sight Group, Reduced END(Zero END; +1/2)(30 Active Points), Bright Fringe(-1/4), Not In Water or Windy Conditions(-1/4) *and* Change Environment, 2" Radius, +2 Temperature Levels, Personal Immunity(+1/4)(16 Active Points), Linked to Invisibility(-1/4), Explosion(-1/4)

 

That's 46 Active Points. That should be more than enough to be put in the EC.

 

Oh, don't forget to buy Life Support: Safe In Intense Heat. And depending upon how "strong" his heat is, you could also add Life Support: Safe In Intense Cold.

 

Unlike with Images (I believe), if spotted his identity is not discernible due to the distortion.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: Is this a legal Elemental Control?

 

As an aside, I had pegged the invisibility to only work when the character put fort concerted effort (ie increased endurance). The character already has a disad of distinctive features: heat blur when powers activate.