Possession

[Damascan]

All,

 

I've been trying to design a decent means of a spirit possession, so that ghosts can possess people. I know that the Ultimate Mentalist had a variation, but I really found the get-desolid-and-cling-to-the-inside-of-the-character approach as awkward at best. I mean, what if the victim is small --- then you have this ghostly character superimposed on the victim. Not what I was looking for.

 

Anyway, is there any reason not to use ExtraDimensional Movement to achieve this by having the ghost port into the victim's Mindscape and then Mind Control the victim from there? The Limitation on both of these is that there must be a successful Mind Scan at EGO+10 for the ghost to get a fix on the victim before it ports into the Mindscape. Then, as I figure it, the ghost can use it's Mind Control through the Mind Scan lock on the victim. If the Mind Scan is broken, then the ghost is evicted from the Mindscape.

 

This approach would seem to fit the flavor I am looking for better. This means that the ghost (or whomever) doesn't have to immediately take control of the victim, but only when it wants to. Also, this would potentially allow for others to battle the ghost in the victim's Mindscape, which provides plenty of adventure potential.

 

Any thoughts?

 

What I haven't figured out is how to do the writeup for the the automatic port out of the Mindscape when the LInk is broken. Any thoughts?

[braincraft]

You wanted to possess people, right?

 

Perk: Owns Slaves

[FireTiger]

Re: Possession

 

The spirit-possession rules from Horror Hero (4th ed.) avoided the problem of size differences, by not giving spirits most of the physical stats. The possession attempt is an opposed EGO check with various modifiers (+2 for being in one's own body, for example).

 

An example creature from the same book is the Possessor Demon. Its powers included Mind Control (for ordering the dominated being's mind around), and a Major Transform (possed being to demonic servant — to gain long-term control).

 

I've not done much with the 5th ed. Ultimate Mentalist yet, but the powers noted in there are rather different from the Spirit-based ones in Horror Hero.

[Markdoc]

Re: Possession

 

Anyway, is there any reason not to use ExtraDimensional Movement to achieve this by having the ghost port into the victim's Mindscape and then Mind Control the victim from there? The Limitation on both of these is that there must be a successful Mind Scan at EGO+10 for the ghost to get a fix on the victim before it ports into the Mindscape. Then, as I figure it, the ghost can use it's Mind Control through the Mind Scan lock on the victim. If the Mind Scan is broken, then the ghost is evicted from the Mindscape.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Why not simply assume that ghosts exist - normally - on the astral plane or the realm of the dead, or whatever and buy their powers with Transdimensional? That way, the Ghost has to use Mindscan to target a person, before possession and if the mindscan is broken, they lose that connection - meaning eventually the person will break the possession. In this case, they don't have to "go" anywhere.

 

This is how I run ghosts in my FH game. They normally have a link to the real world (a fetter, to use the WoD terminology) that holds them just the other side of the veil, so that they can - with effort - perceive our world and to some extent, interfere with it. How they perceive it varies. Some can actually see, or smell, others rely on mindscan, or clairsentience. All those need transdimensional, though. The fetter gives them a physical location in our world and if it's destroyed they go sailing off into the world of the dead - wherever that is.

 

Normal people can't see them (unless the ghost manifests an illusion of some sort, or has the power to physically manifest in our world) but mediums (ie: people who have transdimensional senses) can. Thus a possessing ghost can "see" and possess anyone who gets close to its fetter (the well they committed suicide in, the letter they wrote that broke their father's heart, the treasure walled up in their old house, the last survivor of their noble house, whatever) - and if they have mindscan, they can use it to reach further out - but it's hard to find a target if they are too far away from the fetter. Hence haunted locations or haunted items: you don't usually get ghosts just randomly wandering about possessing people.

 

Of course you don't have to use fetters - I like the idea, is all, but transdimensional would probably solve your problem.

 

cheers, Mark

[Damascan]

Re: Possession

 

Why not simply assume that ghosts exist - normally - on the astral plane or the realm of the dead, or whatever and buy their powers with Transdimensional? That way, the Ghost has to use Mindscan to target a person, before possession and if the mindscan is broken, they lose that connection - meaning eventually the person will break the possession. In this case, they don't have to "go" anywhere.

 

Normal people can't see them (unless the ghost manifests an illusion of some sort, or has the power to physically manifest in our world) but mediums (ie: people who have transdimensional senses) can. Thus a possessing ghost can "see" and possess anyone who gets close to its fetter...

 

Markdoc,

 

Your approach works great for ghosts, and I will definitely use it for that. However, even though at this moment I need for ghosts to be able to possess people, I am still going to need an approach for the demon that is actually in our plane and then physically moves into his/her victim --- sort of the Jericho of Teen Titans effect. Any for the kick-out? A Side-Effect that happens when the MindScan is broken?

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Possession

 

Possession: [purchased as a compound power] (Total: 195 Active Cost, 78 Real Cost) Mind Control 14d6 (Human class of minds), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Continuous (+1) (175 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Lockout (-1/2), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work on Holy Ground, etc (-1/4) (Real Cost: 70) PLUS Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension) (20 Active Points); Requires An EGO Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests [EGO Based]; -1 1/4), Conditional Power Power does not on Holy Ground, etc (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

 

Cost is so irrelevant to a Monster.... Furthermore Possession should be both powerful and frighting.

 

You can always add this as a disadvantage to a Ghost

Susceptibility: Holy Ground or words Spoken from a Holy Text 3d6 damage Instant (Uncommon)

 

 

Here is how EDM Skill vs. Skill is applied.....

The Ghost must still succeed at a Skill vs. Skill Roll EGO vs EGO. The two pair off and make EGO rolls, the victim can modify the Ghosts Roll by imposing a penalty of -1 per point he made his EGO roll by.

 

Thus the contest would commence as follows.....

 

The victim has an EGO of 13 giving him a roll (9+ STAT/5) of 12 or less. The victim rolls an 8, only 4 less than the 12 needed. The Ghost having an EGO of 18 (13 for a EGO Roll 9+ STAT/5) and applies a -4 to his EGO roll (now a 9 or less) to move into the victims body plus another -2 negative modifier (now a 7 or less on an EGO roll) for the 20 points of Extra Dimensional Movement Cost. If the Ghost wins by rolling a 7 or less he gets to enter the persons body. You can also apply Skill Levels to EGO based Skills to simulate the Ghosts will power and dominance. You can also change the roll to a PRE roll vs. the Victim's EGO. This might simulate the presence and fear of the Ghost vs. the Will power to resist what the Ghost wants to do via a possession.

 

Also the Power itself is a compound power thus it would not be subject to multiple power attack limitation listed within the power itself.

 

I hope this helps.

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: Possession

 

The actual movement of the demon into the host is mostly a special effect, especially if they can be hurt by anything that attacks the host.

 

If you must, ED Movement works for that, but keep it simple with a really strong Mind Control. I liked your Skill vs. Skill to take possession.

 

Mind Scan is not needed unless the host begins out of sight. Once the Demon has possessed the host (via EDM to get inside of the host), it is always in LOS until it leaves.

 

You might try a Transform "Target into Demon/Host Multiform", since cost is not a factor. Use your Skill vs. Skill roll after the Attack roll for the All-or-Nothing effect. The special effect would be that the host body remains physically the same, but the Demon is now the dominant form and can "take over" and "make" the host do what it wants. This would be a mental transform, for the most part. The Demon wouldn't even need Mind Control.

 

I'm sure this has some flaws in it....

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Possession

 

Mental Transform: Target to Possessed Target. Side Effects: Physical Transform, Self To Thin Air. Reversed by exorcism or whatever else you decide reverses possession.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Possession

 

Mental Transform: Target to Possessed Target. Side Effects: Physical Transform' date=' Self To Thin Air. Reversed by exorcism or whatever else you decide reverses possession.[/quote']

 

I know now why everyone bloody hates Transform.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Possession

 

I know now why everyone bloody hates Transform.

 

Sure, but sometimes it is the right choice. And if you can Transform Thin Air into anything, surely you can Transform anything into Thin Air. With a reversal condition, of course.

 

("And don't call me Shirley!")

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Possession

 

posted by Chris Goodwin

Mental Transform: Target to Possessed Target. Side Effects: Physical Transform, Self To Thin Air. Reversed by exorcism or whatever else you decide reverses possession.

 

I strongly disagree with how you are applying Transform. Transform by its nature transforms one thing into something else. Possession by its very nature and word used, is the occupation or ownership to someone or something else. I'm not saying my EDM applied is the only way to go as it only applies to the metaphysical movement of a Ghost into a body. I'm just disagreeing with what power you are applying for the SFX.

 

How does Transform make someone Possessed? Since the act of Possession is an act in itself, not the end result of a transformation how is one transformed into being possessed? Thats like applying Transform to create a Mental Illusion. Transforming someones mind, into a mind that sees only what I want them to see or using Transform for invisibility on someone else, rather than using Invisibility usable on others. Isn't that like swatting a fly with a gold brick?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Possession

 

I strongly disagree with how you are applying Transform. Transform by its nature transforms one thing into something else. Possession by its very nature and word used, is the occupation or ownership to someone or something else. I'm not saying my EDM applied is the only way to go as it only applies to the metaphysical movement of a Ghost into a body. I'm just disagreeing with what power you are applying for the SFX.

 

How does Transform make someone Possessed? Since the act of Possession is an act in itself, not the end result of a transformation how is one transformed into being possessed? Thats like applying Transform to create a Mental Illusion. Transforming someones mind, into a mind that sees only what I want them to see or using Transform for invisibility on someone else, rather than using Invisibility usable on others. Isn't that like swatting a fly with a gold brick?

 

Possession is a Special Effect. There are multiple Powers that could be applied to produce that Special Effect.

 

I've seen a mind switch ability created using Mental Transform: Target To Self, with Side Effects: Mental Transform: Self To Target. This isn't that different.

 

So, I get that you don't like Transform. 'S cool, no skin off my back. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. There's plenty of room for opinions around here.

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: Possession

 

GloryFox, there are any number of ways to build a power with a certain specific special effect... that's the reason why you had to ask for suggestions. Using a Transform with the all-or-nothing healing method of "when exorcised by appropriate holy person" is perfectly acceptable.

 

As a matter of fact, Transform specifically accounts for any use of demonic abilities through the host body, since it allows the addition or subtraction of powers, skills, and even disads. It saves a lot of points and effort trying to make Mind Control work in conjunction with EDM -- it completely removes the need for Mind Scan and EDM by explaining how the demon came to "possess" the host in the first place, and accounts for the disappearing demon body as well.

 

I looked closer at Transform and Multiform, and they seem to me to be the best combination to get what you need, especially with the addition of "Accidental Change: Demon will takes dominance when exposed to objects/people/events of interest to demon (common, v. freq., 14-) 20 pts" to the host's form. This allows the demon to "take control" of its host's body and either use its own demonic abilities or access the host's body (depending on how you build the Multiform). Don't forget: just because it's called "Multiform" doesn't mean that the physical form has to change. I once had a deep-cover spy who had a mental multiform with different skills and memories that kept her true self from being revealed through psionics or torture. She looked the same in both forms.

 

Just my thoughts. How does it go...? "Your mileage may vary"?

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Possession

 

Actually I do like transform, when applied correctly.

 

Possession N actual holding or occupancy, either with or without rights of ownership.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Possession

Please read the latin on the low portion of the page to get a full understanding of what is intended by the original word.

 

I did not state the definition to be rude, just to clarify the word for discussion.

 

With your power example when using transform, is like applying Transform to possessing someone else's gun, knife, pants, super powered armor, etc. For example: I take his gun: Major Transform 4d6 vs. the Gun Body (His Gun from his hands to his gun in my hands, Healed back over time) Yeah sure you can do it but does it make sense in the case of a Ghost, Spirit, Entity, Demon, Etc, taking possession of somebodies body, mind, or spirit?

 

As rediculous as the above transform example is I think you are over stepping the intended powers effect by applying transform to a possession. Ask yourself would you use Transform to re locate or use transform to take possession of someones house? wife? car? dog? or gold fish? or would you as a GM require other means of possession such as mind control, bribery skill, or extortion through role play?

 

How about using Transform for relocation instead of using the powers of Teleport, Flight, Running, etc?

 

As I said above I like Transform when used appropriately. When used to simulate another power, use the intended power instead. How about using transform instead of Flash,

Flash: Minor Transform 1d6 (From Seeing person to temporally blind person. , Healing over time)

This is not to say you cannot use transform to cause permanent blindness.

 

There is a basic rule that says: Transform should not be used to simulate other powers. (Page 240 5th ed Revised) Furthermore transform should not "hurt" the target. You should look into another power such as an attack power. (in this case I suggest Mind Control with Extra Dimensional Movement to simulate the Ghost, Spirit, Entity, Demon, Etc, moving into the subjects body.)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Possession

 

As rediculous as the above transform example is I think you are over stepping the intended powers effect by applying transform to a possession. Ask yourself would you use Transform to re locate or use transform to take possession of someones house? wife? car? dog? or gold fish?

 

You're being awfully literal minded about the word "possession". Technically, Mind Control doesn't let you do any of these things either, and if Mind Control were obviously the appropriate Power to use, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

(Edited to add...) With the possession ability you're making a long term change in the target. What Power is used for that?

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Possession

 

I'm sorry Chris but please explain how mind control is not the appropriate power here? The subject of a possession is not in control of their actions, the Ghost, Spirit, Entity, or Demon is. The mind controls the body.

 

Mind Control, by its very act, allows you to take over the drivers seat of someones short term or by applying continuous (making it a constant power bought at 0 END cost) handles any long term effects. Mind Control is possession by it's sheer definition of what it does, either you have a lack of understanding of historical possession or read to many bad novels on the subject. In an actual possession the subject is not in control of what they do (read Mind Control Page 203 5th edition Revised), but they do the actions influenced by the entity anyways. Many times a subject cannot remember their actions, or they think their actions are natural when indeed they are not. You seem to have a "Relativism" view of the definitions of powers it seems by applying transform when possession is clearly a form of control (either mind or body) and not a state of being such as blindness or a form of mental illness. If possession was an affliction, such as blindness, then I can concede to your argument for using transform.

 

However since words must have real meanings and should not be subject to relativism thinking I tend to take the words literal to define what is happening to the subject. I don't just make this stuff up, someone else did a long time ago to describe what is actually taking place. Otherwise language looses it's understanding and meaning. If I were to ask you about your dog, but was referring to your your local weather how would you know what I was talking about? So yes I take the word possession literal. Plus since we have historical reference from the Roman Catholic Church, the Church universal at large, and other world religions we can gain an understanding of the cultural and historical reference to understand what possession is. As well as to why the word very word possession was applied to the situation in the first place.

 

Keep in mind also the word exorcism means "To throw out, remove or abjure". Therefore you can also see in the process of how and why I tied EDM to the act of possession as a compound power. You cannot remove something unless it's actually there to begin with. The "theory" is that you must remove the ghost entity or whatever so it cannot gain control over its subject. Therefore the act of an exorcism is actually a form of Suppression (5edr page 227) to drive the entity away, this act of Suppression is not a transformation although a transformation can take place since the subject is no longer mind controlled or doing actions they would not normally commit.

 

As for other forms of special effects such as "projectile vomiting", this can be achieved through forcing the body to perform actions it would not normally take through mind control as well. Ever study hypnosis? You can force the body to do things you would not think it can do. Other effects such as clinging to walls or moving objects can be purchased as powers themselves. The fact that the "entity" can control the body of the subject like a puppet, or a car (extra dimensional movement applied since the special effect is the entity is literally in the body) means the "entity" can manifest it's powers through the subject while still maintaining mind control to perform body actions as a multiple power attack.

 

Use transform if you want but it's mentally lazy to do so in my opinion.

[Shoutybloke]

Re: Possession

 

I'm sorry Chris but please explain how mind control is not the appropriate power here? The subject of a possession is not in control of their actions, the Ghost, Spirit, Entity, or Demon is. The mind controls the body.

 

It depends, like so many things in hero, on what you want to acomplish .

With mind control, each seperate command given requires that a new effect roll is made. The victim also resists with a breakout roll on his first phase after being mind controlled, for every command. Thus mind control is appropriate if you want to have characters heroicly struggling against possesion.

Also, with mind control, the victim uses his own skills, talents and powers to acomplish the commands. He knows everything he knows, and has no access to the demons skills. Therefore the possesion will not be exposed by the victim mentioning something he knows nothing about, or talking in a language he does not understand, to give examples of situations common in the source material. Therefore, I would say that mind control is appropriate to simulate a fairly superficial level of possesion.

On the other hand Transform can be used to simulate a level of possesion where the victims personality is completly subsumed by the possesor, getting no breakout roll, and gaining the skills, and in some cases, other abilities of the possesor. The victims mind has not just been suppresses- it's been replaced, and only an exorcism (the heal condition of the transform) will restore it.

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: Possession

 

(Edit) Nevermind

[Damascan]

Re: Possession

 

As the original poster, I'd like to clarify why I was interested in Possession being implemented via ExtraDimensional Movement (EDM) + Mind Control, as compared to a Transform: I wanted the possessor to be inside the host completely, and not locatable by any means other than Mental ones. I also wanted to allow for Mindscape adventures, where other heroes might venture into the host's mind in an attempt to free the host. Accomplishing that effect with Transform would really be more trouble than it's worth when Mind Control and EDM provide a more elegant approach.

 

Yes, I agree that Transform might be more appropriate for a long-term possession, but I would still want to link it to EDM to preserve the possessor's psyche/body, unless you are doing quasi-body-swapping, leaving your 'meat body' behind to invade the host. And even then, what would be the trigger to reverse the transform? A successful Ego roll or some Breakout equivalent? Perhaps, but doesn't this bring us back to Transform being used when you really are striving for a Mind Control Effect?

 

As I said in the beginning, most of the Possession variations I had seen didn't seem very satisfying. Mind Control + EMD + EGO roll to invade really seem to meet my need --- thanks GloryFox.

 

Markdoc, thanks for the concept of fetters and the idea that the ghosts would actually be doing all the manipulation via Extra-Dimensional Mind Scanning and Mind Control from the ethereal plane -- that also has its merit and uses in my campaign.

 

Damascan Blade

[Shoutybloke]

Re: Possession

 

Okay, you want something like:

EDM any location in related group of dimensions (mindscapes) 30 pts

Requires ECV hit roll -1/2 ejected by ps: exorcist roll -1/2

If I was your GM I would rule that you don't need transdimensional mind scan to hit your target from his own mind scape, in the same way that I don't need clairsentience to hit England. As a property of the dimension. YMMV

You also don't need to link mind control- you arn't changing dimensions every time you make an effect roll

If you're using transform, then the all or nothing heal would be "demon leaves mindscape"

[Damascan]

Re: Possession

 

Okay, you want something like:

EDM any location in related group of dimensions (mindscapes) 30 pts

Requires ECV hit roll -1/2 ejected by ps: exorcist roll -1/2

If I was your GM I would rule that you don't need transdimensional mind scan to hit your target from his own mind scape, in the same way that I don't need clairsentience to hit England. As a property of the dimension. YMMV

You also don't need to link mind control- you arn't changing dimensions every time you make an effect roll

If you're using transform, then the all or nothing heal would be "demon leaves mindscape"

 

Points taken. These would make things a little cheaper, making it reasonable for a PC wizard to have a Possession spell...