Prone Combat Effects

[Cargus10]

OK, being prone has pretty well defined game mechanics: it halves your DCV. This makes perfect sense if the person trying to hit you is close by. But - what if you are getting shot at from range? What is the first thing people do when they get shot at? They eat dirt - behind cover, if possible, but just down and flat if not. Why? Even if there's no concealment, it generally presents a much smaller target for the shooter (unless he's high above you, but that's a different issue). But in HERO terms, it makes more sense to stay upright so you get your whole DCV.

 

And I know about Dive for Cover, but that's not what this is.

 

Oughtn't ranged attacks be penalized for firing at a prone person, due to much lower cross-section?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Prone Combat Effects

 

You could give them some Cover Bonuses.

 

Mostly the reason for the 1/2 DCV is that your DCV is partially represented by the ability to actively make yourself a harder target by moving, vs passively doing so by becoming a smaller target.

[Cargus10]

Re: Prone Combat Effects

 

I guess my question is - how much cover bonus? It gets wonky if you are using a divisor AND an adder. you half the DCV, but then add back a number. This penalizes those with higher DCV's. Now you could argue that's OK, since the DCV is the "dodge" ability. But really - getting shot at from long range makes your "dodge" useless. It's not like you can see the bullet coming at you (OK, barring some Supers but that's out of scope for this argument)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Prone Combat Effects

 

Yeah, there are some actual benefits to being prone vs. shooters, its just not spelled out super clearly. You have to back into it via inference.

 

* If you can drop prone and deny a shooter LOS on you entirely, they can't shoot you unless they have some kind of Indirect, or AoE that they can "splash" into your space, or other unusual attack. This is the clear cut best outcome.

 

* Even if they can still see you, if they can only see PART of you then they are at either -2 or -4 OCV depending on if you are half concealed or presenting only the head and shoulders respectively. Plus range modifiers and any other situational modifiers.

 

So...basic math time. If you have a DCV of 3 normally and drop prone, you fall to DCV 2. If you are presenting a side on or oblique target a shooter is at -2 OCV, so you are effectively DCV 4 vs them. Even falling to 1/2 DCV, your overall chances of not getting hit have improved. Obviously if you are presenting only a head or head and shoulders shot its even better as you are presenting a -4 OCV challenge to a shooter and are thus effectively at DCV 6 vs them.

 

If you have a DCV of 6, you fall to 3; if you are presenting a head & shoulders only you are better off prone, but if you present more of a target you are better off remaining on your feet and nimble. If you have DCV 8 or more it never makes since to drop prone unless you can get 100% blockage of LOS.

 

Make sense?

[Cargus10]

Re: Prone Combat Effects

 

The math makes perfect sense. My argument is that, no matter how nimble you are, in reality staying upright is a bad idea. You can't dodge what you can't see - the DCV 8 does you no good really.

 

Heck, by THAT logic, your DCV ought not matter one bit if you are getting shot at. Treat it the same as the DCV 3 for a hex, and apply range and concealment modifiers. That gives the shooter a bit too much of an advantage, you say? OK, make the base DCV 5 if you prefer.

 

Note this ought NOT be the case if the shooter is close enough that you can see where the barrel is pointing. In that case, you CAN see to dodge.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Prone Combat Effects

 

Most firefights show - it's very hard to hit a moving target of any variety compared to a stationary one.

 

I believe police statistics show something like most firefights occur within 20feet with no participants hit.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Prone Combat Effects

 

You need to read the section of the book called "Senses in the HERO Systems", specifically the section on "Targeting and Nontargeting Senses".

 

Basically, if a person cannot detect an opponent with any targeting sense, they are at severe combat penalties vs. that person. Vs. ranged opponents that a character cannot detect with a targeting sense they are at 0 OCV and 1/2 DCV already, in which case dropping prone makes sense even for a higher DCV character if they gain concealment in the process since they are already at 1/2 DCV.

 

Going still further, if a character is not in combat and is attacked by an opponent they are unaware of they are even more severely penalized as described under "Surprised".

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Prone Combat Effects

 

Another option for attacking a prone target would be to use hit locations. For example, if the target is facedown, facing you and shooting at you with a gun, you can hit his head, hands, arms, and shoulders. You can either call a shot, or just roll to see if you hit locations 3-9.

 

It also depends on your game theme. Superheroes, for example, rarely take cover or lie prone in a battle because, well, it's just not in-theme. Street-level Dark Champions guys, though? Oh yeah.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Prone Combat Effects

 

Another option for attacking a prone target would be to use hit locations. For example, if the target is facedown, facing you and shooting at you with a gun, you can hit his head, hands, arms, and shoulders. You can either call a shot, or just roll to see if you hit locations 3-9.

This is covered under concealment.

[Comic]

Re: Prone Combat Effects

 

I've always allowed people to 'take cover' -- including becoming 'prone' -- without taking the all disadvantages of being prone, on a sufficient acrobatics or breakfall roll...

 

If it made sense, based on the situation.

 

An agile double-jointed combatant in an area of low cover (say moderately tall grass) might have the movement disadvantages of being prone, but because they were in effect dodging and moving defensively, their DCV did not drop.

 

A hero striving to slide in to catch the sealed test-tube of virus before it hit the smooth hard floor and shattered, might get full movement but lose half their DCV, in order to duck low under the lab bench on their belly.

 

Once the situation changes, then I'll treat prone as having full disadvantages - run out of cover, be flanked by unseen attackers, and your doublejointedness doesn't help you but instead is a liability; finish your slide, and you're prone, at reduced movement rate until you stand up.

 

But that's just me, I guess.

[Alibear]

Re: Prone Combat Effects

 

I quick and dirty house-ruled that firing at anyone prone doubles range penalties.

 

You still have half dcv when prone.