pushing and shoving

[Tom]

ok -- maybe it's just me, but I can't find any general rules to allow one character to push another into a wall, or shove someone over a cliff. If my search-fu is weak, I'd appreciate a, errr, nudge towards the correct page...

 

The closest I've found so far is the Shove maneuver in UMA (pg 149), however as any parent with more than one kid can tell you -- it don't take a black belt for pushing and shoving...

 

Extrapolating from the Martial Shove, I've come up with the following general combat maneuver:

 

1/2ph, +0 OCV, -1 DCV, target is propelled 1" for every 10 STR

 

Target can make a Acrobatics, Breakfall, or DEX roll at -1 for every point the attacker made his Hit Roll by to fall down at any point along his path and half any damage from the shove.

 

Thoughts, alternative suggestions or tweaks from HEROdom assembled?

[prestidigitator]

Re: pushing and shoving

 

I'd probably call it a form of Grab and Throw, even though it may not LOOK quite like a "grab" or "throw". That or a Move Through.

[lunaticlord]

Re: pushing and shoving

 

Wouldn't this be covered under the rules for knockback?

[Sean Waters]

Re: pushing and shoving

 

Might be interesting to have a new martial component that increases KB distance, or rather reduces the number of dice you subtract.

 

The other way you can kinda do this is buy a martial throw and define it as a push - obviously you are limtied to how far you can throw the target but it is not unrealistic.

[Manic Typist]

Re: pushing and shoving

 

On first thought, I'd be ok with allowing a player to turn his normal, STR based Strike (i.e. off basic STR) DCs into inches of knockback.

 

My reasoning: I can plant my feet and shove someone with all my might. Most people are going to be moved by this. I can do the exact same thing and instead punch them with a closed fist. This is going to hurt them a lot more, but might not send them as far.

 

So I'd let the player perform a normal Strike and roll to determine Knockback.... and then add their DCs as inches of additional Knockback. No Stun or Body damage would be done, since people aren't generally hurt by shoves... but they ARE hurt when they collide with something as a result of a shove. So all damage would come from impact.

 

Just an "on the fly" thought.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: pushing and shoving

 

I'd probably call it a form of Grab and Throw' date=' even though it may not LOOK quite like a "grab" or "throw". That or a Move Through.[/quote']I agree that using Grab & Throw is the way to go here.

[Tom]

Re: pushing and shoving

 

I'd probably call it a form of Grab and Throw' date=' even though it may not LOOK quite like a "grab" or "throw". That or a Move Through.[/quote']

It also doesn't feel like a grab and throw... Yeah, I may be overthinking it, but a Grab requires you to, well..., grab someone. I can push someone without grabbing them, and probably with less difficulty. Also, a grabbed character is allowed an automatic chance to break free as a zero-phase action using casual STR. Jilly the jilted cheerleader would (almost) never be able to shove Joe the football jock if she had to actually grab him first...

 

Might be interesting to have a new martial component that increases KB distance, or rather reduces the number of dice you subtract.

 

{snip}

 

On first thought' date=' I'd be ok with allowing a player to turn his normal, STR based Strike (i.e. off basic STR) DCs into inches of knockback.[/quote']

Actually, there is a mechanic for this in UMA (pg 161) called Pushback. It allows you to sacrifice DCs from your attack for BODY to increase possible Knockback

 

My reasoning: I can plant my feet and shove someone with all my might. Most people are going to be moved by this. I can do the exact same thing and instead punch them with a closed fist. This is going to hurt them a lot more, but might not send them as far...

{snip}

Which is part of why I don't like the idea of Pushback for a generic shove. Breaking your example apart -- in a shove, you're exerting force against your target after making contact. In a punch, you're exerting force against your target as you make contact. This is why there is an intuitive argument for defining it as a grab and throw. The part where it become counter-intuitive is when you realize that the grab must 'control' the target before you can throw -- and you don't need to control someone to push them.

 

To my reading, Pushback actually feels like a two-part maneuver. You sacrifice power on the initial strike to maintain contact for a follow-on shove, treated mechanically as a single attack. It feels 'right' to me, based on my own martial experience, but I still don't consider it a basic 'push/shove'.

 

Additionally, the Pushback (it's based on the KB rules after all) potentially will not move the target at all and at the higher STR ranges can get really ugly (Pushback is a '!' rule, btw, and my objective is something I can allow any character to do for free...).

[Manic Typist]

Re: pushing and shoving

 

Actually, there is a mechanic for this in UMA (pg 161) called Pushback. It allows you to sacrifice DCs from your attack for BODY to increase possible Knockback

 

Always good to see that my mind's on the right track! I really should read that book...

 

Which is part of why I don't like the idea of Pushback for a generic shove. Breaking your example apart -- in a shove, you're exerting force against your target after making contact. In a punch, you're exerting force against your target as you make contact. This is why there is an intuitive argument for defining it as a grab and throw. The part where it become counter-intuitive is when you realize that the grab must 'control' the target before you can throw -- and you don't need to control someone to push them.

 

 

Additionally, the Pushback (it's based on the KB rules after all) potentially will not move the target at all and at the higher STR ranges can get really ugly (Pushback is a '!' rule, btw, and my objective is something I can allow any character to do for free...).

 

Hm, I think you're overanalyzing it until it doesn't work anymore. For instance, I don't think your conception of the push tracks. I'm not talking about putting my hands on someone and THEN shoving. I'm talking about slamming my open palms into their chest and knocking them back.

 

Which works with KB. Some people are tough/manage to keep their feet, and don't move, or don't move far.

 

However, I have another proposal for you:

 

Cover. Require that a "Shove" requires a successful "Cover" first. You "hit" the target in advance (i.e. make contact, or at least are in a very good position to shove the person), but do NOT "control" them in any size, shape, or form. Then you use Pushback or whathaveyou.

[Tom]

Re: pushing and shoving

 

Always good to see that my mind's on the right track! I really should read that book...

 

 

 

Hm, I think you're overanalyzing it until it doesn't work anymore. For instance, I don't think your conception of the push tracks. I'm not talking about putting my hands on someone and THEN shoving. I'm talking about slamming my open palms into their chest and knocking them back.

 

Which works with KB. Some people are tough/manage to keep their feet, and don't move, or don't move far.

 

 

Me, over-analyze? Well, it's been known to happen... ;D

 

Though to be honest -- I am talking about putting hands on someone and then shoving. Not hit them and do KB. I want to push someone away -- with or without the intent of causing additional harm in the process.

 

However, I have another proposal for you:

 

Cover. Require that a "Shove" requires a successful "Cover" first. You "hit" the target in advance (i.e. make contact, or at least are in a very good position to shove the person), but do NOT "control" them in any size, shape, or form. Then you use Pushback or whathaveyou.

 

Seems more complicated than what 'should' be a simple maneuver would require, but that does not automatically disqualify the idea...

 

My biggest problem with using Pushback is it is of only minimal value at 'normal' values of STR -- a 10 STR has ~72.7% chance of accomplishing absolutely nothing against an ordinary person converting both DCs to BODY for KB purposes. That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me...

 

And even worse, at higher STR it can get ridiculous. Converting all DCs to BODY for KB purposes, an 80 STR brick will do a minimum of 20" of KB with its attendant potential 20d6 damage if you've got a sturdy enough backstop available.

 

Now just rolling straight damage, only for the purpose of determining KB, takes the edge off of the high STR chars -- but a 10 STR char, rolling an average of 2 BODY, has less than a 10% chance to even knock down an ordinary person...

 

On the other hand, the maneuver I'm suggesting will allow a 10 STR char to 'move' a target 1", and do 2d6 damage given something solid to provide the sudden stop. The 80 STR brick will be able to 'move' someone 8" and do up to 16d6 depending on what's available as a backstop.

 

While the martial maneuver I'm using as my base didn't discuss the affect of KBR, or heavier targets, I was planning on using the same rules given for Martial Throws (can't throw something heavier than you can move with Pushed STR, and a prepared char can resist being thrown with KBR).

 

(I should probably read up on Root one of these days...)

[prestidigitator]

Re: pushing and shoving

 

Perhaps another form of Pulling a Punch would be appropriate. Normally the Body damage is halved with that maneuver, and Knockdown/back is calculated from that. Perhaps you could offer one where both the Body AND Stun damage are halved, but the Knockdown/back is calculated from the FULL Body damage count (before it is halved and applied as damage). Something like that.

 

Also, I have at times allowed Move Throughs to do Knockback instead of Knockdown in heroic games before when specifically declared and used for this purpose, and I think it has served well.

[Tom]

Re: pushing and shoving

 

Finally dug into the Root maneuver (which allows a character to resist being Shoved), and finally (what can I say, it's been a long week at work) made sense of the tables for constructing your own maneuvers...

 

Simply de-constructing the martial Shove and Root maneuvers only requires removing the additional STR granted for maneuver purposes. Making the 'everyman' maneuver as I proposed actually makes the move a -1pt cost, however, I'm thinking I'll leave it that way since it seems to me that shoving someone (and resisting same) tends to leave one somewhat off-balanced (ymmv)...

 

fwiw I defined the everyman version of Root as follows:

 

Resist: 1/2ph, +0 OCV, -1 DCV, Block, Abort

 

(as I noted above, this is a -1pt cost maneuver.)