Dual Strike

[badger3k]

I decided to post this here rather than the FH section - since it can apply to other genres. I am setting up a skill trick where you strike with two weapons, but the damage is added together, rather then two separate attacks. I made two versions, and would like comments, if you have any:

 

Dual Strike 1: Aid HKA 15d6 (standard effect: 45 points) (150 Active Points); Only for One Attack in One Phase (-2), Limited to Damage of second weapon (-1 1/2), OIF (Weapons of Opportunity; -1/2), Requires A Fighting Tricks Roll (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2). Real: 23, Tricks Roll: -15.

 

This has the advantage of giving standard maximum of 3d6 HKA, limited by weapon. I put the Lims at -2 and -1 1/2 because with normal fade rate this power would be extremely effective, and most weapons do a lot less than 3d6, so I judged it that way. I had considered a -1, and that is still an option.

 

Dual Strike 2: Aid HKA 8d6 (80 Active Points); Only for One Attack in One Phase (-2), Limited to Damage of second weapon (-1 1/2), OIF (Weapons of Opportunity; -1/2), Requires A Fighting Tricks Roll (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2). Real Cost: 12, Tricks Roll: -8.

 

This has a lot more variability, but it sets up the idea that the second weapon strike may not be as strong as the first, so it may only do a fraction of its normal damage. It does mean more dice to roll, but what's that to a Hero player .

 

Any comments, especially suggestions for the limitations, are appreciated.

[braincraft]

Re: Dual Strike

 

Well, first of all, keep in mind that rolling twice as many dice of damage is going to result in much more than twice as much damage inflicted. I mean, some modern anti-aircraft missles do 18 DCs; doubling a 3d6K is going to one-shot an awful lot of opponents, especially if you use hit locations, and the stun lottery is going to be pretty fierce. If your GM is fine with that, fine, but make sure you understand what you're getting into.

 

Besides that, Aid is probably the most awkward way to do this. (No, I'm kidding; Transform is always the most awkward implementation!) Just use partially limited HKA, or Deadly Strike, or even skill levels and martial maneuvers.

 

Don't get too wrapped up in forcing the mechanics to 'make sense'; the numbers are there to serve the story, not the other way around. If the effect you want is to do more damage, then use one of the existing mechanics that affect damage.

 

As an aside, I despise the 'Requires an X roll' limitation for commonly-used powers. It adds extra rolls to combat resolution, and the best you can hope for is to fail at an embarassing moment. That doesn't add drama, it turns the game into slapstick. It's a shameless point-shaving and almost never makes sense in story terms.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dual Strike

 

Aid 15d6 HKA will add about 52 points, or about 4 1/2 d6 HKA at most. Wouldn't it just be cheaper to buy extra HKA and add?

 

If your GM gets squitty about that, you can manage a 10d6 HKA with 150 active points: you can't have many characters chucking round 5d6 HKA single attacks in FH.

 

Please tell me you haven't...

[Beast]

Re: Dual Strike

 

RKA 10d6 (150 Active Points); Activation Roll 13- (-3/4), OIF (-1/2), Reduced Penetration (-1/4)

you get 2x 5d6 rka's that both hit most of the time(RSR at -1/2 is not going to work most of the time

if you hit and activate both attacks need to go through what ever def then they add back up for dazing

 

 

I decided to post this here rather than the FH section - since it can apply to other genres. I am setting up a skill trick where you strike with two weapons, but the damage is added together, rather then two separate attacks. I made two versions, and would like comments, if you have any:

 

Dual Strike 1: Aid HKA 15d6 (standard effect: 45 points) (150 Active Points); Only for One Attack in One Phase (-2), Limited to Damage of second weapon (-1 1/2), OIF (Weapons of Opportunity; -1/2), Requires A Fighting Tricks Roll (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2). Real: 23, Tricks Roll: -15.

 

This has the advantage of giving standard maximum of 3d6 HKA, limited by weapon. I put the Lims at -2 and -1 1/2 because with normal fade rate this power would be extremely effective, and most weapons do a lot less than 3d6, so I judged it that way. I had considered a -1, and that is still an option.

 

Dual Strike 2: Aid HKA 8d6 (80 Active Points); Only for One Attack in One Phase (-2), Limited to Damage of second weapon (-1 1/2), OIF (Weapons of Opportunity; -1/2), Requires A Fighting Tricks Roll (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2). Real Cost: 12, Tricks Roll: -8.

 

This has a lot more variability, but it sets up the idea that the second weapon strike may not be as strong as the first, so it may only do a fraction of its normal damage. It does mean more dice to roll, but what's that to a Hero player .

 

Any comments, especially suggestions for the limitations, are appreciated.

[Vulcan]

Re: Dual Strike

 

Or 2-shot AF.

[badger3k]

Re: Dual Strike

 

Well, I'm the GM, and I'm making this for a massive one-strike power. I'd probably limit it other ways so it isn't used a lot.

 

I used to use deadly strike, just adding HKA to it, and...it doesn't fit. It's way too easy to get too much for too few points. I've used it in my last campaign and it was a bit on the overpowered side. Even limiting it to 1d6. I also looked at adding STR, but again, it seemed a too much effect for too little. With an AID it is by the book and it is expensive.

 

I just realized, when deadly blow came out there was discussion, and I think I was going to go and tell how it worked out in my campaign. Never did, but it is, for my money, overpowered in all but the narrow sense (like Demonslayer). Swordsmaster + fighter character = lots of death and overshadowing of other characters.

 

The skill roll is to make it a hit or miss. If the character wants to learn it to the point of doing it every time, then they can buy that off, or get penalty skill levels. This attack represents timing two weapon blows to the exact same spot and causing massive damage. It's supposed to be more of a last ditch effort, not something that can be done on a whim. It's supposed to be hard.

 

Sorry if I didn't make some things clear.

[badger3k]

Re: Dual Strike

 

Also, thanks for the replies.

[braincraft]

Re: Dual Strike

 

If you want to limit it, use Increased END Cost, Charges (it's more justifiable than you think), or Side Effects. Make it a cost, and not a gamble. With a skill/activation roll, it's either reliable enough that you'd be stupid not to use it anyway, or unreliable enough that it's always going to be a Hail Mary.

 

And for goodness' sake, use AP caps, or at least limit effectiveness organically; if you just let people buy whatever they have the points for, of course you're going to get some ridiculous constructs.

 

I really don't see how it's better to let someone buy a +5d6 Killing for 45 points than it is to let them get +1d6 Killing for 15 points. You're giving an inconsistent rationale for overcomplicated and abusive constructs; I really can't forsee it working any better.

[badger3k]

Re: Dual Strike

 

If you want to limit it' date=' use Increased END Cost, Charges (it's more justifiable than you think), or Side Effects. Make it a [i']cost[/i], and not a gamble. With a skill/activation roll, it's either reliable enough that you'd be stupid not to use it anyway, or unreliable enough that it's always going to be a Hail Mary.

 

And for goodness' sake, use AP caps, or at least limit effectiveness organically; if you just let people buy whatever they have the points for, of course you're going to get some ridiculous constructs.

 

I really don't see how it's better to let someone buy a +5d6 Killing for 45 points than it is to let them get +1d6 Killing for 15 points. You're giving an inconsistent rationale for overcomplicated and abusive constructs; I really can't forsee it working any better.

 

I think you need to chill out, dude. It's just a game, ok.

 

Here's the "ridiculous construct" that is caused by "letting people buy whatever they have the points for":

 

Fighter, STR 20, Dex 20. Within the caps.

Wields broadsword, 1d6+1, 1.5d6 w/str. (4/5 DC repsectively)

Has +1 OCV with sword, +1 DC with sword (2 skill levels limited).

Has sword-oriented martial arts, the worst of which is +2 DC to sword.

Has Weapon Master Deadly Blow talent: +1d6 with hth weapons (10 pts)

 

Damage caps at 8dc, due to weapon (2.5 d6). Deadly blow adds to that. 3.5d6 on a normal blow. Average 10 Body. Average armor - chain, 6 PD. That's unmodified by hit location, but that's an average of 4 Body through armor each blow. (all this assumes that the extra 1d6 is not added to the base 1d6+1 to get a base 2d6+1, which would then cap at 4.5d6) - I can't remember which way it worked - I think the extra was just outside the normal limits per the thread. At 3.5d6, Body ranged from 2 to 42; Stun ranged from 4 to 105.

 

Compare that to the ranger/archer, with her 1d6+1 sword, or 1.5d6 arrows.

 

Now, we did have an avarial (winged elf, FR) archer, who took the deadly blow with bows, so her heavy bow did 3d6 per shot (2d6 + 1d6). The player was the fighters wife, so guess who helped create her?

 

There were two other characters who were more concerned with their character then combat damage, so they were like the ranger. The extra d6 made a difference, and made it harder for the other characters to keep up without buying something they did not want to buy. It's an arms race. I built up the power of the dragon-mage to see what worked, but his strongest was a 4d6 RKA, and it was limited in use. (I'm reworking the magic system to make it more competitive with the fighters) - hell, I just noticed I did give the caster the same deadly blow (hth). I do have to agree that when an option becomes a necessity, something is wrong.

 

The main reason I allowed it was to try it out. It didn't seem bad, but when we gamed it out, no. It's more trouble then it is worth. Even an extra 1d6, used every time, can be unbalancing, unless everybody has it. That leads to more defenses, when it can be done (sorry, not every guard wears magic plate).

 

Something like this power (dual strike) is a gamble - it's supposed to be one. Buying skill levels can make it less of one.

 

But: - it does the same thing as using a heavy strike or combat levels with an axe. At most, it would probably do 4d6. The power has to be large enough to cover the HKA of any weapon that might be used (using 3d6 as a limit was probably too much, most 1h weapons are 2d6, but extra could be magic). So, at most you are getting +3d6 max, not +5d6, for a cost higher than 10 pts.

 

That said, working the numbers, you are right in that this is bloated. Doing the damage works it out to about the same as having high strength or CSLs for DC (or martial arts maneuvers). It basically just doubles the attack to the max DC. For this to be a special maneuver, it needs to be special. This isn't.

 

Verdict :

 

So, back to the drawing board.

 

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

[Markdoc]

Re: Dual Strike

 

How about this:

 

3d6+1 HKA (50 Active Points); Requires a fighting tricks roll to increase damage (-1/2), cannot do more than double damage of weapon used (-1/2), OIF (Weapons of Opportunity; -1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2). Real: 16, Tricks Roll: -5.

 

You are making the early versions too complicated by focusing on the freebie weapon, which, when all is said and done, is just a special effect.

 

Instead, just buy a 3d6+1 HKA, for which your freebie weapon is merely a focus. Essentially, you are forgoing the freebie weapon in exchange for a more powerful attack.

 

As set up, if you use a dagger, you do dagger damage unless you make your fighting tricks roll, in which case it does double dagger damage. If you use a greatsword, it does greatsword damage, unless you make your fighting tricks roll, in which case it does double greatsword damage.

 

Since I did not include STR min, even a 10 STR character with this power could do up to 4d6 HKA with a greatsword, if he made his fighting tricks roll - which is where the weapon would normallly max out (2x base damage). Still, 3d6+1 would allow a character with a more powerful weapon to still double its damage, up to an substantial 6 1/2 d6. That should be enough for most games

 

Other comments: I left RSR at -1/2 because although you still get to use the power even if you fail it, you don't get any benefit: you merely do the damage that you would have done with the weapon you are using anyway. I only gave "cannot do more than double" only a -1/2 based on the assumption that people would usually have access to a range of weapons and would choose hurty ones when they wanted This is a substantial limit though, which will almost always affect the power. I could easily see going to -1 or even higher. It doesn't change the real cost much, though.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Dual Strike

 

Fighter, STR 20, Dex 20. Within the caps.

Wields broadsword, 1d6+1, 1.5d6 w/str. (4/5 DC repsectively)

Has +1 OCV with sword, +1 DC with sword (2 skill levels limited).

Has sword-oriented martial arts, the worst of which is +2 DC to sword.

Has Weapon Master Deadly Blow talent: +1d6 with hth weapons (10 pts)

 

Damage caps at 8dc, due to weapon (2.5 d6). Deadly blow adds to that. 3.5d6 on a normal blow. Average 10 Body. Average armor - chain, 6 PD. That's unmodified by hit location, but that's an average of 4 Body through armor each blow. (all this assumes that the extra 1d6 is not added to the base 1d6+1 to get a base 2d6+1, which would then cap at 4.5d6) - I can't remember which way it worked - I think the extra was just outside the normal limits per the thread. At 3.5d6, Body ranged from 2 to 42; Stun ranged from 4 to 105.

 

As an aside, you're doing this wrong: one of the most broken things about Deadly Blow is that it adds to the base damage, so the calculation is broadsword (4 DC, +3 DC Deadly blow = 7 DC, can be doubled to 14), + 1 DC (levels) +2 DC Martial arts, +2 DC from STR for a total of 12 DC or 4d6 HKA. This can be increased to the full 14 DC (4 1/2d6 HKA with a haymaker, though it'd rarely be worth the effort). That means your average is 14 BOD, which means you're dealing a major amouit of BOD even though plate armour on an average roll and mail armour is largely irrelevant.

 

As it stands, Deadly Blow is highly unbalancing in most heroic games.

 

Cheers, Mark

[badger3k]

Re: Dual Strike

 

How about this:

 

3d6+1 HKA (50 Active Points); Requires a fighting tricks roll to increase damage (-1/2), cannot do more than double damage of weapon used (-1/2), OIF (Weapons of Opportunity; -1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2). Real: 16, Tricks Roll: -5.

 

You are making the early versions too complicated by focusing on the freebie weapon, which, when all is said and done, is just a special effect.

 

Instead, just buy a 3d6+1 HKA, for which your freebie weapon is merely a focus. Essentially, you are forgoing the freebie weapon in exchange for a more powerful attack.

 

As set up, if you use a dagger, you do dagger damage unless you make your fighting tricks roll, in which case it does double dagger damage. If you use a greatsword, it does greatsword damage, unless you make your fighting tricks roll, in which case it does double greatsword damage.

 

Since I did not include STR min, even a 10 STR character with this power could do up to 4d6 HKA with a greatsword, if he made his fighting tricks roll - which is where the weapon would normallly max out (2x base damage). Still, 3d6+1 would allow a character with a more powerful weapon to still double its damage, up to an substantial 6 1/2 d6. That should be enough for most games

 

Other comments: I left RSR at -1/2 because although you still get to use the power even if you fail it, you don't get any benefit: you merely do the damage that you would have done with the weapon you are using anyway. I only gave "cannot do more than double" only a -1/2 based on the assumption that people would usually have access to a range of weapons and would choose hurty ones when they wanted This is a substantial limit though, which will almost always affect the power. I could easily see going to -1 or even higher. It doesn't change the real cost much, though.

 

cheers, Mark

 

That might be ok, but it still has the same problem I noticed too late - it;s only double damage. Other then by going the martial arts route (4 pts +1 DC, even limited - which I think it may be, I'd have to check the UMA), I made a "feat" (to get my D&D players into FH) of:

 

Weapon Specialization: +2 with one weapon (10 Active Points); Only for DC (+1 DC; -1/2), Requires Weapon Focus with weapon (-1/4), Real Cost: 6.

 

This is limited to being taken once, but if you allow the only for DC limit, 6 CSLs (only for DC) costs 20 pts (6x5 w .5 lim), if you limit it to only one weapon (I gave a -1 lim, but YMMV) would be 12 pts. Of course, you could just not allow this, or set a limit on CSLs, so this may not come up, but simply doing double damage isn't too hard to achieve.

 

I agree that the second weapon was SFX, but I was trying to keep the damge consistent, so that a sword & dagger strike was not as strong as a sword & axe.

 

I just have to take it back to the drawing board and come up with a better effect then just damage. Something to make it stand out more.

[badger3k]

Re: Dual Strike

 

As an aside' date=' you're doing this wrong: one of the most broken things about Deadly Blow is that it adds to the [b']base damage[/b], so the calculation is broadsword (4 DC, +3 DC Deadly blow = 7 DC, can be doubled to 14), + 1 DC (levels) +2 DC Martial arts, +2 DC from STR for a total of 12 DC or 4d6 HKA. This can be increased to the full 14 DC (4 1/2d6 HKA with a haymaker, though it'd rarely be worth the effort). That means your average is 14 BOD, which means you're dealing a major amouit of BOD even though plate armour on an average roll and mail armour is largely irrelevant.

 

As it stands, Deadly Blow is highly unbalancing in most heroic games.

 

Cheers, Mark

 

That is what I thought (and I think that is how we were doing it), but I wasn't sure, so I left it as is (I thought I did put that option in my calculations somewhere). I agree that it has proven to be a big "STOP". I have kept it in for some weapons (like 'Bane' weapons) or some very limited skills ("Gnoll Hunter - only vs Gnolls") to reflect a very specialized form of combat skill. I hope that will not be unbalancing. Right now I'm trying to find another way to enhance HKAs - I've used the AID option in my 4e fighter conversion in the FH forum.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Dual Strike

 

As an aside' date=' you're doing this wrong: one of the most broken things about Deadly Blow is that it adds to the [b']base damage[/b], so the calculation is broadsword (4 DC, +3 DC Deadly blow = 7 DC, can be doubled to 14), + 1 DC (levels) +2 DC Martial arts, +2 DC from STR for a total of 12 DC or 4d6 HKA. This can be increased to the full 14 DC (4 1/2d6 HKA with a haymaker, though it'd rarely be worth the effort). That means your average is 14 BOD, which means you're dealing a major amouit of BOD even though plate armour on an average roll and mail armour is largely irrelevant.

 

As it stands, Deadly Blow is highly unbalancing in most heroic games.

Don't those Martial Arts DCs add to Base Damage as well? So couldn't it go up to 18 DCs? Or is it that Martial Arts DCs ignore the doubling rule (without adding to Base Damage)? It's one of those. Of course, Martial Arts DCs add to KAs at half their normal rate, so you'd really have to buy +4 MA DCs for that....

[badger3k]

Re: Dual Strike

 

Don't those Martial Arts DCs add to Base Damage as well? So couldn't it go up to 18 DCs? Or is it that Martial Arts DCs ignore the doubling rule (without adding to Base Damage)? It's one of those. Of course' date=' Martial Arts DCs add to KAs at half their normal rate, so you'd really have to buy +4 MA DCs for that....[/quote']

 

Martial DCs add to the total, per p406. "extra damage classes for unarmed martial maneuvers" as well as the "determining base damage" and the example of Chan Hseng on pg 405. Only in the case of unarmed killing attacks do the extra DCs purchased count as base damage. For totality, HA adds to the base damage as well. Damn - I just realized how nasty a club or staff could be with a few bonuses.

[Kdansky]

Re: Dual Strike

 

By the way I write up Deadly Blow as "RKA (adds to HKA), No Range (-1/2) etc"

 

No doubling danger

 

Also, another stylish build I recently found which you could use as a build for the Dual Strike SFX too:

 

I Just Stabbed You In The Really Soft Spots:

+2d6 RKA, no Range (-1/2) or +2d6 HKA, STR does not add (-1/2) identical anyway.

No End (+1/2), 45 AP

Activation Roll 6- (-4)

OAF (-1)

No Stun (-1)

real cost: 6

 

Gives you +2d6 of body damage (but no stun, just because it's cooler this way, Rule Of Cool is important) if you roll a 6 or lower on your attack roll (this is the neat thing: The activation roll is defined as your attack roll). Also, you never bother with it except if you really roll low (means you don't pay end for it). Only problem: Works really badly if you have NPAs on your attack (like Autofire 3 hits). You would have to buy the NPA for another 45 AP (this construct) and slap all the same -6 Limitations on it. True, that's not very expensive, but it's complicated. You can substitute Armorpiercing in that case.

[Markdoc]

Re: Dual Strike

 

Don't those Martial Arts DCs add to Base Damage as well? So couldn't it go up to 18 DCs? Or is it that Martial Arts DCs ignore the doubling rule (without adding to Base Damage)? It's one of those. Of course' date=' Martial Arts DCs add to KAs at half their normal rate, so you'd really have to buy +4 MA DCs for that....[/quote']

 

It's actually neither. Here's the rule (from page 406)

Extra DCs used to add damage to armed Martial Maneuvers are considered to be added damage, not an increase to the base DCs

 

So martial arts (regardless of whether you have DCs or not) have no effect on the "cannot more double damage from a weapon" rule.

 

cheers, Mark

[prestidigitator]

Re: Dual Strike

 

Ah. Okay. Armed vs. unarmed. Heh.