Black Rose Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 In the "MMM - what would you like to see?" thread, someone sad they'd like to see the atlatl used by some race or other. Now, for those who don't know this tool, an atlatl is a length of wood with a very slight angular bend about 15-18 cm from one end (seving as a handle) and a cup-like socket or notch at the other end, facing back up the shaft. The purpose of the atlatl is to give more oomph to a light hurled spear, by placing the butt of the spear in the cup, laying the atlatl along the arm and over the shoulder, and using it to extend the "length" of one's arm for the purpose of acceleration. Hopefully this picture wll illustrate... The question I have is, how would you represent this in HERO terms? My thought is, either define the atl atl as having X STR Min and then a higher damage level than would be assumed, or let it add to the damage of a thrown spear. Any other ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 I'd write it up as; +X STR, only to increase throwing range for javelin or short spear (but not both), 0 END, OAF, Real weapon I'd set X at about half to a third of the listed STR min for the missile, and tweak it downward if that seems too much. Personally, I'd also give it a -1 OCV, based on my extremely limited experience with them... you do get a lot more distance, but it's harder to place your shot without significant practice. I seem to recall seeing mention of the atlatl in the new FH, but I don't have it handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 I'd represent it using the writeup for it on FH 174. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Originally posted by Steve Long I'd represent it using the writeup for it on FH 174. Well now that just takes the fun out of everything. This is Hero. We're supposed to argue endlessly about the correct way of doing everything. Now you come along Steve and make excellent official writeups of everything under the sun. It's getting so you can't argue about anything but politics around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Sadly, I haven't noticed this lack of arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkerGrae Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Atlatl Strength. Personally I'd make the +5 STR for increasing range and damage. From research I've done in the past on Atlatls they're noted for increased range and impact making them excellent weapons for felling large creatures like mammoths by primative man. Modern users note that the accuracy is enough to hit a pie plate at about 40 or 50 yards and the power of the impact was well respected by the conquistadors when they were fighting the Aztecs as the darts easily penetrated Spanish armor at ranges around 100 yards. For better information I refer you to http://www.atlatl.net/, the site of World Atlatl Magazine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Re: Atlatl Strength. Originally posted by WalkerGrae From research I've done in the past on Atlatls they're noted for increased range and impact making them excellent weapons for felling large creatures like mammoths by primative man. That's what we eventually used them for, but what's funny is that atlatls were invented when my loser friend Thrag tried to throw a broken spear that he had 'fixed' by winding some sinew around the break. Obviously it didn't hold, and we mocked him mercilessly, but we also noticed that the front half of the spear went further than Thrag could usually throw (which isn't saying much). Atlatls really kicked ass when we came across the Bering Strait and found all those big defenseless mammoths cruising the plains. So much meat! It makes my mouth water just thinking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted August 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Originally posted by Steve Long I'd represent it using the writeup for it on FH 174. -smacks head repeatedly on desk- Geez, man, I can't believe I didn't notice that. Then again, I've been more into the races, magic, and "building your fantasy world" parts - I usually skip the weapons as a read, since I know they're gonna be well written, and I'll get to them when I need to. Alright, to continue in the "... and others" part - that I didn't write last night because I was tired - how about this? There's a trick I read about that (I believe) Roman soldiers used to do with ther javelins. You take a couple strips of leather, wrap them around the back half of the javelin in a spiral, then hold on to the ends of the leather as you throw the spear. This, in theory, would "rifle" the javelin, adding more accuracy to the throw (though I think it would reduce the overall range, BTM). Any ideas beyond +2 PSLs, Only to Negate Range Penalties? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkerGrae Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Funny Old Man. I like the spirit and creativity of your post. You should check out the link I put in and take a gander at the article by Tim Cahill on front page. I think you might get a chuckle out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Escafarc Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Originally posted by Black Rose [bThere's a trick I read about that (I believe) Roman soldiers used to do with ther javelins. You take a couple strips of leather, wrap them around the back half of the javelin in a spiral, then hold on to the ends of the leather as you throw the spear. This, in theory, would "rifle" the javelin, adding more accuracy to the throw (though I think it would reduce the overall range, BTM). Any ideas beyond +2 PSLs, Only to Negate Range Penalties? [/b] If you look closely they mention this in the same paragraph as the atlatl its called a amentum (FH pg 174) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkerGrae Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 On rifling your cord. I don't believe wrapping the string would would achieve the desired effect, it would probably just decrease the power imparted to the spear. However, I have infomation taken from "Crossbows" by Payne-Gallwey in their 1903 study of balistic machines. There is reference to a pastime in Yorkshire calle arrow-throwing. By wrapping a string around the index finger, affixing the other end about halfway down the shaft with a single hitch and holding the "arrow" at the front Gallwey reports ranges up to 372 yards could be achieved. Compare this to a 70 lb. bow that can cast a normal hunting arrow to ranges of about 250 yards. A closer look at photographs showing a contemporary reproduction of arrow-throwing shows the half hitch affixed just in front of the fletching. The arrow is still held near the head. The pictures are of a Utah paleontologist named Don Burge who achieves ranges of 200 yards with a 500 grain arrow and an old leather shoestring. He says he's tought people to achieve similiar results in about 20 minutes practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kintara Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 By the way, this is a good time to mention to Mr. Long that his products have the very best indexes. I never understood why some lines of RPGs could neglect their indexes so much. If it's in the book, it's in the index, a good rule of thumb* with Hero. *I'm told this was invented to describe the largest thickness of stick you could use with which to beat your wife with out it being considered "abuse". Charming. Edit: Of course, as such things go, I quickly found a site that claims it is bunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaughterj Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Re: Re: Atlatl Strength. Originally posted by Old Man That's what we eventually used them for, but what's funny is that atlatls were invented when my loser friend Thrag tried to throw a broken spear that he had 'fixed' by winding some sinew around the break. Obviously it didn't hold, and we mocked him mercilessly, but we also noticed that the front half of the spear went further than Thrag could usually throw (which isn't saying much). Atlatls really kicked ass when we came across the Bering Strait and found all those big defenseless mammoths cruising the plains. So much meat! It makes my mouth water just thinking about it. Geez, you really are an Old Man! Perhaps you should change your name to Really Old Man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Originally posted by Steve Long Sadly, I haven't noticed this lack of arguments. Oh but they aren't arguements anymore, now they are discussions. It is all much more polite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkerGrae Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Arrow Throwing. I just located an online reference to arrow throwing at http://www.quine.home.sonic.net/yorkshire.html, the part referencing the book "The Crossbow" starts about two-thirds down the page under the section titled "Throwing with Strings." It also has some information on spears and javilins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 By the way, this is a good time to mention to Mr. Long that his products have the very best indexes. I never understood why some lines of RPGs could neglect their indexes so much. Thanx! Good indices are tough and time-consuming to do, which is why a lot of RPG books don't have 'em. But given the size and detail of our books, I think they're important. If I can ever find the time I'm going to collect all the indices through book X and put 'em on the website as a master index PDF. But that's a big "if." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkerGrae Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Master Index. One great master index, one index to find them all, one index in the darkness bind . . . well one master index anyway. DROOOL ... Have I ever mentioned how much I like well done, comprehensive indexes. It's a nice change to get good ones. I've been sorely disappointed with the pathetic excuses for indexes I've seen in the last decade or so in most books. Long live the great Hero indices! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSkip Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Ermmmm if you wanna suffer more, play White Wolf...... about the only decent part of their indcies is the gifts/diciplines. Easy though because most of the info is all on a few pages.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Originally posted by Steve Long If I can ever find the time I'm going to collect all the indices through book X and put 'em on the website as a master index PDF. But that's a big "if." You should change that to 'when'. I'm reading the FHonebook now and I keep coming across things that make me think, "hmm, this would have been good in Champions." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzy Gnome Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Originally posted by AnotherSkip Ermmmm if you wanna suffer more, play White Wolf...... about the only decent part of their indcies is the gifts/diciplines. Easy though because most of the info is all on a few pages.... Are you mad? The index lists every discipline as being on page 87 (and only page 87). What is page 87? "Table 11: Nearly Alphabetical Listing of Disciplines Without any Useful Information or Indeed any Descriptions Whatsoever" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Atlatl Strength. Originally posted by slaughterj Geez, you really are an Old Man! Perhaps you should change your name to Really Old Man? Ah, but you're only as old as you feel. That cuts my age in half! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Re: Atlatl Strength. Originally posted by Old Man Ah, but you're only as old as you feel. That cuts my age in half! Half of infinity is still infinity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 More praise for good indices I appreciate how difficult and boring it is to make a good index to a book. I also understand that the index often goes unnoticed and unappreciated. Allow me to add my voice to those who sing the praises of 5th Ed. indices. That was my biggest complaint about the 4th ed. BBB; bigger than the typos, bigger than any rules loopholes, bigger than the repeated illustrations. ALL books of ALL RPGs of ALL genres should have an index! Read that line again several times until you've got it. Speak of it in your home and on your way, when you lie down and when you rise up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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