Ultimate Adaptation

[kridenow]

Hello there,

 

I'm writing several NPCs for a coming Champions game (I'm actually introducing City of Heroes players to Champions, because the Champions Online MMO is on their radar).

 

One of the characters I have in mind should have the abilities to adapt to any hostile environment, quickly and reflexively.

 

So I was considering building it as a Variable Power Pool with the Cosmic advantage and the Limitations Character has no Choice Regarding on When and How Powers change and Slightly Limited Class of Powers (Only Defenses).

 

The Cosmic advantage (which is allowing a Zero-phase change of the pool and no Skill roll)... simply because I want it to be instantaneous and reliable.

Only Defenses because it's a personal adaptation aimed at survival (so covering various strict defenses and Life Support).

 

I'd go for a pool allowing the NPC to sustain/adapt to at least a couple of different hostile environments at once.

 

Do any of you see something that should be added there to make it work according to the rules ?

(or another way to build it)

 

Thanks for reading.

[Psylint]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

Easiest way:

 

Life Support: just select the various environments you want to be able to adapt to, take a limitation "Noisy" (at 0 or -1/4 as your GM prefers) to represent obvious, if instantaneous adaptation. This would also allow the character to adapt to "multiple environments" at once.

 

Then add Armor, Forcefield, or whatever other defensive power you choose to deal with damage from hostile environments (for things like walking through lava pits or what have you).

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

I originally thought about making it a multipower. But then the slots would have to cover every hostile environment possible (same if powers are built individually). The VPP looks to me to allow more flexibility.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

Even with the limitations, the VPP strikes me as needlessly expensive for what you are trying to do.

 

If the character INSTANTLY adapts to any hostile environment, then that's just the special effect of his Life Support.

 

If you want him to be able to walk through lava or something, that's just defenses. If these defenses only protect him from environmental damage and not related attacks, then that's a limitation on those defenses.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

VPP's the way to go. Granted, some stuff isn't usually allowed in a VPP, as 'GM permission only' -- but considering you're restricting the pool considerably, I think it's a good idea. You MIGHT want to make it pretty sizeable, for those times when the only way to adapt is to have the legendary 'Desolidification, Only Vs. X'. Toss the guy into the Sun, and sure, he'll survive....

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

Even with the limitations, the VPP strikes me as needlessly expensive for what you are trying to do.

If the character INSTANTLY adapts to any hostile environment, then that's just the special effect of his Life Support.

 

Oh, the cost isn't a problem since it's destined to be used as a NPC power construction and I don't aim at balancing (for the record, it's the only power of the said NPC).

 

Now, I am not so sure about the final cost.

Piling Life Support (and potential other, regular, defenses) can add up quickly.

The character is conceptually supposed to be able to adapt to a limited number of hostile conditions at once. Say... 2 or 3.

 

So it might be cheaper to have a VPP allowing to switch from Life Support entries to the others as required, compared to having them all.

If you add in the various poisons, fumes, gas and other intoxicants, I really wonder if a VPP isn't cheaper for that purpose.

 

 

 

If you want him to be able to walk through lava or something, that's just defenses. If these defenses only protect him from environmental damage and not related attacks, then that's a limitation on those defenses.

 

Actually, both. Being protected from the hostile environment/conditions and related, regular attack (a lava pool and a magma EB, for example).

While defenses are less numerous (actually, PD and ED, I wonder if Power Defense or Mental Defense could, again conceptually, fit in), it might also be better to have the NPC able to shift the defenses according to the threat, rather than having them all.

 

A VPP should also allow to distribute the character points according to the exact conditions. Say there are several environmental threats at once and no direct (EB like) threats, everything can pour into Life SUpport.

Likewise, being under several different assault types while no environmental conditions is threatening, allows to focus on building defenses (Life Support isn't required for now).

 

The way you're describing the power distribution is also right.

I just felt intuitively it might be better to rely on a VPP to cover every cases possible, instead of buying every defense and life support possible.

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

VPP's the way to go. Granted' date=' some stuff isn't usually allowed in a VPP, as 'GM permission only' -- [/quote']

 

Well, it's destined to a NPC and I'm the GM so...

 

but considering you're restricting the pool considerably, I think it's a good idea. You MIGHT want to make it pretty sizeable, for those times when the only way to adapt is to have the legendary 'Desolidification, Only Vs. X'. Toss the guy into the Sun, and sure, he'll survive....

 

My idea is to write a serie of "adaptations" to various environmental and direct threats and, considering the NPC could adapt to 2-3 at once, adding the points of the most expensive, to serve as a base for the VPP.

But yes, the VPP size might end being high, especially with the advantages for being zero-phase and without roll.

[JPicasso]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

I would consider the simplest solution possible. KISS, is a very good rule to employ with the HERO system. VPPs tend to be a lot of overhead and 'tweaking' to get the power defined.

 

What you are describing can be simply be defined as a variable power

(-1, or -3/4) "only vs current environmental attacks". Buy PD/ED or desolid(continuous) with this limitation.

 

So, while in a volcano, you would be defended vs lava/heat/fire.

While in Canada you would be defended vs Ice/cold/polarbears.

While in the amazon, you would be defended vs poisonous frogs, and possibly heat(not fire)

In the Midwest US, you would be defeneded vs... I dunno, Wal Mart?

 

Also buy life support no eat/breathe only to accomodate current environment.

So under water you do not need to breathe, but you would still be suffocated if someone plugged your gills, for example.

 

 

This is the simplest case, not necss the best case. But you're villian is good to go with only two or three powers in every case.

 

HAVE FUN!

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

I would consider the simplest solution possible. KISS' date=' is a very good rule to employ with the HERO system. VPPs tend to be a lot of overhead and 'tweaking' to get the power defined.[/quote']

 

Well, I'm not trying to prove anything or convince anyone I'm really interested by options and, maybe, if someone already built a similar power.

 

What you are describing can be simply be defined as a variable power (-1, or -3/4) "only vs current environmental attacks". Buy PD/ED or desolid(continuous) with this limitation.

 

Yes, that's basically the idea, hence the VPP attractiveness.

It would still imply all possible Life Support entries are taken (and possibly some new to cover what life Support doesn't mention... like "all toxic elements, alien, terestrial or whatever").

Now the limitation might not really apply to Life Support since, by nature, Life Support works to protect against various environmental conditions ?

It looks to me a bit like having a "works only against Fire" limitation on a Fire Immunity Power.

Unless you see this limitations only for PD/ED.

 

So, about the PD/ED, it would be probably more justified but maybe it can be debated if direct attacks fall under the limitation condition (would an extreme gravity based EB seen as "environmental attack" ?).

 

So, while in a volcano, you would be defended vs lava/heat/fire.

While in Canada you would be defended vs Ice/cold/polarbears.

 

Eh, yes

The polar bear mention is good, actually.

What you describe is roughly how I picture the power.

 

The above and proposed limitation looks should work against environmental attacks.

Now do you see polar bears claws and fangs as being a valid threats for this power (or poisonous frogs you mention later) ?

 

This is the simplest case, not necss the best case. But you're villian is good to go with only two or three powers in every case.

 

It's not even for a villain but for a secondary NPC

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

Seems like Life Support and limited Defenses of some sort (I'd suggest Armor) would be the simplest way to go. The Life Support might get "Visible" at you discretion or that could just be a special effect.

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

But then, you'd have to pick every Life Support entries, protected against all environment troubles at once.

The character won't be immune to high pressure at an instant and the following day no longer immune to high pressure (because, at this very moment, the character is already protected againt other type of envrionmental threats and his adaptation cannot manage more, new threat types).

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

So the character can only be resistant to one type of environmental damage at a time? If he's deep under the ocean he can only be resistant to the cold or the pressure but not both or he has to choose between the heat and the smoke if trapped in a fire? In that case, his Life Support would have a Limitation or could be brought in a small Multipower. His defenses would also have a higher limitation value: Only vs a single Environment Type of damage.

 

Does the character's adaption kick in instantly before he takes any damage or does he suffer from his surroundings first? It doesn't suffer any from environmental damage at all that he "adapts" to it is really just a special effect. The mechanical result is the same as having life support. The character might get some small limitation to it since it is at least theoretically possible to catch him without his "adaptation" (NND Vs Life Supports might still effect him for instance, at least once).

 

If you were going to go the VPP route I think Limited type of Powers would be a better fit limitation wise than "can't select powers" unless the character also gets additional modification aside from defenses and Life Supports such as he gets fins (Swimming boosts) in the water or Nightvision in extreme darkness, etc.

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

The NPC would be resistant to 2-3 environmental threats at once. So the power should accodomate several resistance/life support effects at once, coming from sometimes different environment (in a world of supers, everything can happen).

And then comes the thing about direct attacks.

 

The main theme is "I can resist anything, just don't pile too much on me at once".

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

Still seems like limited Life Support/Defenses (or a multipower) but that's just my opinion. I

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

Does the character's adaption kick in instantly before he takes any damage or does he suffer from his surroundings first?

 

That's a question I have in mind since a moment

The inability to choose the How and the When left wondering when the power triggers.

Because even a Zero-phase change still suppose technically the character is able to perform an action. However, since the When is ucontrolled, it would suppose that, at best, it happens as a zero-phase when the character can act.

So I was considering a Trigger but it looked to me a bit conflicting with the absence of control over the When.

 

In theory, the NPC body should react reflexively and instinctively but also instantly.

Is it because the body is hurt or because the character realize the danger ? I must admit I didn't set my mind on it.

 

It doesn't suffer any from environmental damage at all that he "adapts" to it is really just a special effect. The mechanical result is the same as having life support.

 

Of course. Actually, visually, the character will display physical changes for cosmetic and description purposes.

I used "adaptation" just to have the readers picture a bit what I am looking to build here.

 

The character might get some small limitation to it since it is at least theoretically possible to catch him without his "adaptation" (NND Vs Life Supports might still effect him for instance, at least once).

 

Oh yes, there are probably ways to bypass the ability to react and change to resist any agression.

(even if the obvious way here is to overwhelm with different types of threats, since the VPP is limited in size, by theme and mechanically, the NPC won't be able to "adapt" to too many different threats at once).

 

If you were going to go the VPP route I think Limited type of Powers would be a better fit limitation wise than "can't select powers" unless the character also gets additional modification aside from defenses and Life Supports such as he gets fins (Swimming boosts) in the water or Nightvision in extreme darkness, etc.

 

Yes, good catch.

I guess having a Limited Selection without being able to choose is quite useless.

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

Still seems like limited Life Support/Defenses (or a multipower) but that's just my opinion. I

 

That was my first thinking. But the multipower, even with flexible slots, will have to contain every single Life Support entry and base defense type.

The VPP looks more flexible for the simple reason you are not bound to what you put in at first, leaving the NPC able to counter the alien virus or the odd extra-dimensional environment.

But the multipower should be an acceptable way for most of the cases.

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

That was my first thinking. But the multipower, even with flexible slots, will have to contain every single Life Support entry and base defense type.

 

There aren't really that many LS types to cover "environments" and the Defense (if nessecary) can be included in the same slots. The slots would probably be ultra slots with the base pool only large enough to fuel two or three of them at once. Switching Multipower slots is already a 0-phase action so that would be covered.

 

LS: Immune to cold +10 (or whatever) ED Only vs Cold would be one slot.

 

I guess it also depends on how you intent to build Diseases and similar effects but one of the slots could be Power Defense (Lots) and other effects for surprises but since you're the gm for the NPC there wouldn't be that many unexpected situations.

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

No, there aren't many different LS environment, that's why a multipower is an acceptable way.

It's just that, technically, the NPC won't be able to resist anything with a multipower but only what is listed. So it's no longer the ability to counter any sort of hostile environment, just the ability to counter the known and expected hostile environments.

For gaming, in practice, both are close enough but still not the same.

However, I admit it's rather nitpicking

 

I don't know about the ultra slotting. While the LS types don't have a use of flexible slotting (since they are "all or nothing" either you have the LS, either you don't), I could use a flexible slotting for defenses, which are variable like dropping the PD to boost ED in some circumstances (as far as the multipower allows).

And the other way round, dropping the PD/ED part (when no direct attack happens) to cover more LS types.

 

Or make two multipower, one with ultra slots for LS types, one with flexible slots for defenses. Just one can't pour point into the other, should the need arise.

 

Since you raised the topic, how would you manage an instant, reactive change, out of the character action phase ?

A VPP allowed me to more or less ignore the question with the inability to choose how and when but a multipower ... ?

I was thinking about a -1 No Conscious Control limitation.

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

No control of How or when powers changes doesn't really let you ignore the question of changing off phase without some handwaving on your part It's a Limitation not an Advantage which would seem more appropriate to "His powers change as a No Time Action to just the set he needs at the time." Technically what it seems like you looking for is a Trigger variant, IMO. No Conscious Control is a hefty Limitation that should be a draw back roughly the half the time the power is used and it doesn't seem like this characters powers are that problematic.

 

Edit: Also for that matter if you think No Choice of when or How powers change is a valid limitation and eliminates the timing problem you can put it on the Multipower Pool.

 

Another way would be to build the effect straight Life Supports along with Armor with a Limitation on how many he can have up at once. Since Life Support and Armor is always active the "adaptation" is just a special effect and doesn't require any time of action. The Armor would of course be limited to the proper effects at the time, connected to which of his Life Supports are active.

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

By "ignoring the question" I was meaning that I simply decided to think about that later Not that I had a rule allowing me to ignore it. Sorry for the confusion

 

The thing is the NPC has no control over the "adaptation". So while on one hand it has to be seen as an advantage the fact it triggers out of phase, on the other hand, the advantage is limited by the total lack of control over the actual changes.

But here, I'm going beyond my original question...

 

Strictly speaking and according to the expressed theme, it's true it's far more an advantage than a limitation.

 

About your last suggestion, defenses (as opposed to LS here) aren't that much of a problem.

As you said, Armor is always active and as long as it counts against the attack, the visual and the description is just flavor added (even if I guess I could make things a little more complex by adding Hardened to counter some situations)

So if I understand you correctly, the idea would then to add a tailored limitation on the LS types and the number running at once (or the Active Point cost, whatever).

 

But it wouldn't really solve the problem of the instant reaction to a change in environment (granted those sudden changes are unlikely in the real world but in a world full of people flying and shooting energy...).

You'd still have the character change from a selection of LS to another.

Unless you also put a limitation modeled on the VPP one (no choice regarding when and how) ?

[Querysphinx]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

Oh, the cost isn't a problem since it's destined to be used as a NPC power construction and I don't aim at balancing (for the record, it's the only power of the said NPC).

 

 

Here's my take. It's an NPC. It can do what you, the GM, need it to do. Why bother to stat it at all?

 

I use lots of NPC's that don't have stats per se, just lists of what they can and can't do. Sometimes this is because they are God-Like Beings that the PC's simply have no hope of hurting, or because they are basically non-combatants who are going to get smeared in a straight up superhero battle, but sometimes it's just because "This is what I need the character to be able to do."

[D. Guss Tibus]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

I'm not for KISS, I'm for KTCSS = = = Keep The Character Sheet Simple.

 

So I say, VPP.

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

Here's my take. It's an NPC. It can do what you' date=' the GM, need it to do. Why bother to stat it at all?[/quote']

 

Why bothering with a rulebook, by the same logic ?

 

Now, I understand what you mean and, certainly, I could always handwave things and focus on the intended result instead of the rules. So your take is right about managing the situation in a game.

 

However, I am still interested by how the rules can handle such a power. It might not be fully useful in this very case but it can serve later for other ideas and/or inspiration.

Or if, simply, a player ends asking "oh, that's a cool power, next character I do will have something similar". Where the rules might then become more important.

[kridenow]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

I'm not for KISS' date=' I'm for KTCSS = = = Keep The Character Sheet Simple.[/quote']

 

Eh, that was also somewhat my concern

I originally thought about a multipower, then pondered I'd have to write slots to cover the various situations, which led me to the VPP solution instead.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Ultimate Adaptation

 

I tried to build a similar concept recently (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69054) and came to the conclusion a Multiform VPP might be the way to go. Just prebuild a bunch of slots for various environments (space, underwater, underground, in lava, while falling, ect.), so the game isn't slowed down. My reasoning was this; as I thought out the concept more and more, I decided I wanted to define Adaptation as more than just survival. I wanted it to include the ability to act normally in the hostile environment also. I chose to define Adaptation as the following:

 

Life Support - Obviously.

 

Environmental Movement - I have adapted to the cold...now if I could only stop slipping on this ice! (Talents can't go into a Framework but can be taken on a Multiform)

 

Damage Reduction - with the Set Effect Limitation. As above, extra Armor would do the same trick but if your villain already has high defenses a few levels of Armor could make him invulnerable to the attack (which is no fun for players).

 

various Movement Powers - Breathing underwater isn't as useful if you only have 2" of Swimming. Also I think adapting to an underground environment should include some Tunneling.

 

various Enhances Senses - I would say your an Adaptation Power is kinda weak if you can't adapt to someone turning the lights off. (Special Powers also cannot go into Frameworks but again Multiform would cover all your Senses)

 

I hope this helps a bit.