Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

[Psylint]

How do you guys feel about characters that take the "Requires Skill Roll" limitation and then purchase enough skill levels with the relevant skill such that at full power the character has a 14- roll?

 

I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, at full power, RSR and Activation 14- have the same limitation, and powers are frequently used at full power.

 

On the other hand: RSR powers are more likely to occur at less than full power, may use extra time and potentially complementary skills to increase their roll.

 

Then again, the difference between a 90ish% chance and 98-99% chance while significant statistically speaking isn't all that and a bag of chips.

 

Thoughts?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

The Limitation for both RSR and Activation are both based on the level of the Skill, not the penalty against it.

 

14- is a -1/2 Limitation, use that for the Limitation value and go with it.

[Vondy]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

I'd recommend keeping it simple RSR and Act 14- have the same value. Just go with it. You could try to figure out what skill roll is the most frequent, but it will get messy, and there is something to be said for elegant simplicity.

[Alibear]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

Yup. 14- is -1/2 no matter if it's RSR or activation.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

Unless it is a pretty big power, probably they've spent about as much on the skill as they saved with the Limitation (for example, a 60 AP power with no other Limitations saves 20 points with this Limitation, but since it comes with a -6 to the skill roll, that's 12 points right there on top of the base cost of the skill and enough to make it a 14- or whatever). Of course, that can add up to some savings if multiple powers are based on the same skill, and/or if the skill is based on a high-valued Characteristic. Still seems to me like a better way to save points than an Elemental Control though.

 

I'm not sure how I'd feel about a player doing this in a superhero campaign with powers built in a free form fashion. In most other games, I'd look as much at whether it fits with the concept and the overall style of the game as anything.

[Psylint]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

I agree, but that's part of the problem with RSR in general. It's a great way to create powerful but inexperienced characters (particularly when coupled with Side Effects) and create a natural kind of progression.

 

I don't know, probably the best advice is not to think about it.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Cheers

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

I think RSR is underpriced, personally and, well, just wrong. The more points you have in the base power, the harder it is to use?

 

So, let's see:

 

60 point power RSR = 40 points, saving you 20. You can buy +9 on a skill roll (giving you 14- roll at full power) for 18 points (assuming you already have the relevant skill and a non-exceptional characteristic). You save 2 points. Actually it is worse than that: if you have a lot of limitations, for instance with fantasy spells, you save much less in practice.

 

I like the mechanism that RSR introduces but it should be done differently: perhaps as a modification of Activation.

[Vondy]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

 

60 point power RSR = 40 points, saving you 20. You can buy +9 on a skill roll (giving you 14- roll at full power) for 18 points (assuming you already have the relevant skill and a non-exceptional characteristic). You save 2 points. Actually it is worse than that: if you have a lot of limitations, for instance with fantasy spells, you save much less in practice.

 

I like the mechanism that RSR introduces but it should be done differently: perhaps as a modification of Activation.

 

This is why I don't even blink during my audit process when I see RSR on a character. Its not saving much, if anything, so anything more than "is this in concept?" is a waste of time.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

I think RSR is underpriced, personally and, well, just wrong. The more points you have in the base power, the harder it is to use?

 

So, let's see:

 

60 point power RSR = 40 points, saving you 20. You can buy +9 on a skill roll (giving you 14- roll at full power) for 18 points (assuming you already have the relevant skill and a non-exceptional characteristic). You save 2 points. Actually it is worse than that: if you have a lot of limitations, for instance with fantasy spells, you save much less in practice.

 

I like the mechanism that RSR introduces but it should be done differently: perhaps as a modification of Activation.

 

Right, but as soon as you have TWO powers that require the same roll, you HAVE saved points. So in that way it is kinda like an Elemental Control.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

Right' date=' but as soon as you have TWO powers that require the same roll, you HAVE saved points. So in that way it is kinda like an Elemental Control.[/quote']

 

Well not so much saved points as not lost so many. Two x 60 point powers with the same skill roll you save 40 points and spend 18 on the skill, a net saving of 22 points - with a 14- activation you would have saved 40 points and have the same activation roll (I accept that RSR is then marginally more flexible as you can activate the power at a lower AP level for a roll bonus, but that is of strictly limited use for almost everything but movement powers). Even with a LOT of RSR skills, it will never be quite as cheap as activation - and that is working off 14-; if the activation is at 11-, RSR gets left in the dust.

 

That leads to my other objection to RSR from a style POV - it encourages ridiculously high (often 20+) skill rolls in heroic games. I'm not mad keen on that - it just looks wrong - and if you pick a skill that isn't ONLY used for a RSR (i.e. you pick 'acrobatics' as the skill not 'magic' then you have a skill which is massively over normal campaign levels just so it can be used to activate a power.

 

Like I said, i like what RSR is there to do, I'm just not keen on the actual execution.

[tesuji]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

well comparing RSR to ACt is slightly off for non-instant powers, as RSR only needs to rool once while, IIRC, ACT rolls every phase. this allows an RSR power to be started off-scene and then be up ad running when trouble starts.

 

RSR is a better buy the more powers you have based off the skill roll.

 

As for the initial question, I haven't seen a problem with people buying up the skill roll to get to 14- etc. If its one power, they saved little or nothing. if it is multiple powers, they are practically committing to only bring them up one by one and not all at once (or they suffer combined penalties.)

 

so it can all be made to even out.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

You're quite right about the constant v instant for RSR, which means it is a lot more sensible for defences than for attacks.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

Also, RSR can involve situational modifiers, which might be a very good way for a GM who believes the player has saved too many points to get reveng...err, "balance" things.

[Vondy]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

 

That leads to my other objection to RSR from a style POV - it encourages ridiculously high (often 20+) skill rolls in heroic games. I'm not mad keen on that - it just looks wrong - and if you pick a skill that isn't ONLY used for a RSR (i.e. you pick 'acrobatics' as the skill not 'magic' then you have a skill which is massively over normal campaign levels just so it can be used to activate a power.

 

 

I usually have a skill maxima, but allow PSLs vs. skill roll pens.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

Also' date=' RSR can involve situational modifiers, which might be a very good way for a GM who believes the player has saved too many points to get reveng...err, "balance" things. [/quote']

 

S'Right, although I can't see anything wrong in principle with allowing situational modifiers for activation rolls, if it fits with the sfx.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

I usually have a skill maxima' date=' but allow PSLs vs. skill roll pens.[/quote']

 

Despite my general dislike for PSLs (so you're equally skilled at hitting the opponent and hitting the opponent in the head? Right....), that seems like an excellent use for them. You have restored my faith

[Vondy]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

Despite my general dislike for PSLs (so you're equally skilled at hitting the opponent and hitting the opponent in the head? Right....)

 

I don't regard PSLs as conceptual mechanism so much as I see them a balancing mechanism. They have a definate use within that understanding as they allow you to have managable characters in terms of ability levels who can still pull off some impressive effects (or shtick). It also allows characters to be impressive mook killers and show their prowess with the extras without being too deadly to named characters of comparable dramatic importance as they won't have OCVs that are off the charts. Beyond that, they don't make much sense.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Requires Skill roll with multiple skill levels

 

Also, don't forget that while in this example, RSR bought up to Whatever for 14- is only a -1/2 penalty on the skill, but costs BANK when building the character. RSR can improve, etc. (as presto noted) but is also inherently more expensive. If you buy another, bigger power, you need to ALSO sink points to RSR to keep it up. Activation Roll bypasses that.