Detecting with multiple senses

[Sean Waters]

Danger sense, and lie detection are examples of detects that logically use more than one sense group.

 

You might detect danger because of a whiff of gas, or the sight of a VIPER uniform (OK, bit obvious that one), or the sound of a gun being cocked. You might detect a lie through the increase in skin temperature of the target, of a change in heartbeat, of mirco expressions flitting across their faces.

 

In either case you are using multiples senses - possibly all the nomal human senses.

 

When building a detect you can EITHER scratch build it OR base it on another sense. When building the above detects theyare based on MULTIPLE senses. If you are blinded, for instance, it might severely hamper your danger sense or ability to detect lies BUT it will not necessarily prevent you using it, albeit at a penalty.

 

The advantage of the simulated senses rule is that it is cheaper to buy new senses through existing ones. The problem is that if that sense is knocked out, you lose the associated detect. It seems to me that detects based on MULTIPLE senses could fall into two groups: EITHER a detect where you NEED multiple senses (without sight AND touch, you can not detect gold, for instance) OR a detect where you can use fewer senses but at sub-optimal performance.

 

The former is just a -0 limitation on a sense, IMO, but the latter is an improvement in utility, and one that is significant enough, IMO, to require payment.

 

I was thinking something like a 5 point adder (or possibly a 3 point adder): based on multiple senses. That way if you lose a sense that the detect is based on you take a -2 penalty for each one lost, for instance, or the GM might simply decide that (for danger sense) there are now only certain types of danger you can detect.

 

Thoughts?

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

I would probably just chalk it up to SFX. If you state that your character has electrical powers then there are natural environmental factors that will work for and against that SFX.

 

Same for the multiple sense-based Detect. Since it's effect were working from, I'm not sure you really need to go there. You say you Lie Detector works off of Sight, Hearing, and "ranged" touch (sensing the heat from someone's body), etc. You get Flashed, then naturally I might say your X detection component is knocked out.

 

OTOH, Detect is not very grainy, so I'm also not opposed to this idea at all. And since most, if not all, other senses are based on Detect, it wouldn't hurt at all to have a whole host of new options for Detect.

[Lucius]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

I thought this was the way Danger Sense was already assumed to work, although maybe it could be more explicit.

 

But beyond that, for things like Magesight or the Spirit Sense I was planning to build for a future campaign, you may be onto something.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

I thought this was the way Danger Sense was already assumed to work, although maybe it could be more explicit.

 

But beyond that, for things like Magesight or the Spirit Sense I was planning to build for a future campaign, you may be onto something.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary.

 

It is the way that danger sense is assumed to work, at least for some types of danger sense. The whole build for danger sense is pretty questionable. For instance someone who can detect danger based on normal human senses uses the same basic build as someone who can detect danger to a whole city: clearly human senses don;t go out that far, at least in a city, and so should require a different build even if the lower level one uses a variant of the simulates senses rule: in fact it just uses an adder.

 

My point though is that a detect that relies on multiple senses and can still function (albeit at a penalty) if one or more of those senses is knocked out is more useful than a detect based on a single sense and so should cost more.

 

Danger sense, the build, is simply wrong. It is specifically NOT using the simulated senses rule, it is a stand alone sense and yet has not been bought as such. I would not particularly care if it did not purport to be bought with the enhanced senses rules, but, well, it kinda fluffs it.

 

It is a munchkin build at best, and one that simply doesn;t work at worst.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

Ignoring Danger Sense for the moment, I think I'd be okay with a Detect that can operate through multiple sense groups at no additional cost, as long as the penalty was pretty severe if any of those senses/groups were hampered, or if it operated through a main sense (group), with a bit of help from the others. I think a +5 Adder--or maybe an Advantage based on Variable SFX--is appropriate if it can really operate through multiple senses/groups with little or no penalty.

 

Then again, I'd probably try to buy such a "sense" as a Skill rather than a Detect if it REALLY relies on the character's other senses without providing sensory input of its own. That's kind of the definition of a Skill IMO (at least the ones used to gather information--Social Skills and some Intellectual Skills). I think a "detect lie" ability that relies entirely on a character's normal senses could more readily be bought as a large (possibly Limited) bonus to Conversation or as an Analyze.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

Then again' date=' I'd probably try to buy such a "sense" as a Skill rather than a Detect if it REALLY relies on the character's other senses without providing sensory input of its own. That's kind of the definition of a Skill IMO (at least the ones used to gather information--Social Skills and some Intellectual Skills). I think a "detect lie" ability that relies entirely on a character's normal senses could more readily be bought as a large (possibly Limited) bonus to Conversation or as an Analyze.[/quote']

 

The only issue with this is that normal senses would never give you access to detecting changes in body temperature, being able to hear someone's heart beat change etc.

 

Perhaps skills could be Complementary to Detects; I certainly would allow this under the right circumstances.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

This is probably worth a dedicated thread, but I think that Hero has really made an excellent stab at getting senses defineable in game terms - far more so than almost any other game system, but we are not quite there. To be honest all it would probably take is a slightly better definition of terms.

 

First of all, I've been thinking about Superman and Lois, filtering important data and the 'rapid' sense modifier.

 

Here goes.

 

1 source of data (one sound, for instance): +4 on PER roll

2 sources of data: +2 on PER roll

3-4 sources of data: +0 on PER roll

5-8 sources of data: -2 on PER roll

Each doubling of sources of data: -2 on PER roll

 

So, for instance, filtering a sound from 100 sounds would be a -10 on your roll.

 

The rapid sense modifier cancels out the penalties though, so if you had 2 levels of rapid sense with hearing, you could filter 100 sources of sound without penalty.

 

In addition WELL KNOWN sounds can be filtered at a bonus of up to +4, so hearing a scream you are used to hearing ('That's Lois!') is done at a bonus, which is why Superman hears Lois in preference to others.

 

You can either do that as an ad hoc bonus or 'buy' familiar sensations like TP floating or fixed points. For 1 point you can always pick up Lois in distress, for 2 points you can change what you are filtering for.

 

I'll move on to other stuff when I've thought about it a little more: all somewhat nascent at present...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

Very nice Sean. I think that's decently broad and generic enough to be a good addition to the basic sensing rules. And it's subjective enough for GMs to have some wiggle room as to how they interpret and use it. Always important. We could easily apply it to any of the senses, I think, and some might be able to apply extra time bonuses (picking out one object from a group of similar looking ones, for example).

 

Mr. Gridlock - I disagree that normal senses could NEVER give you that kind of info. You just might need very acute senses to discern that kind of thing. Especially in a superhero genre. It's reasonable to imagine someone with very acute hearing could detect small changes in voice timbre that indicate the subject is under duress, etc.

 

Of course, there are a number of considerations to actually allowing this sort of construct in a game, and deciding HOW it should be built. Check out the other thread about Daredevil-like senses. That's sort of where this discussion started.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

Then again' date=' I'd probably try to buy such a "sense" as a Skill rather than a Detect if it REALLY relies on the character's other senses without providing sensory input of its own. That's kind of the definition of a Skill IMO (at least the ones used to gather information--Social Skills and some Intellectual Skills). I think a "detect lie" ability that relies entirely on a character's normal senses could more readily be bought as a large (possibly Limited) bonus to Conversation or as an Analyze.[/quote']

Hear, hear! A lie is not a physical phenomenon to detect or sense. You can buy Sense Skin Temperature, or Enhanced Perception to notice minute facial twiches, etc., but it is more of a Skill to understand what these things mean.

 

Detect Lie is just too invasive into a mind to build as a regular Detect. It should be built with Conversation, or Analyze, or Telepathy, perhaps with PER rolls required or complimentary, and various Enhanced Senses can help.

 

Most detects that are based on an existing sense group, should really only have one sense group involved. If your Detect Gold is based on the simulated sense rule, then you can either smell gold, hear gold, feel gold, or see gold. You don't get more than one, unless you pay for them.

 

Taking input from multiple senses and figuring out somthing based on that is more of a skill than a sense.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

Detect Lie is just too invasive into a mind to build as a regular Detect. It should be built with Conversation' date=' or Analyze, or Telepathy, perhaps with PER rolls required or complimentary, and various Enhanced Senses can help.[/quote']

 

The Intuition skill I proposed in the 6e Skills thread would work well for this.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

The Intuition skill I proposed in the 6e Skills thread would work well for this.

 

Doesn't Deduction work pretty well for intuitive conclusions? Despite the name I always thought so.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

Doesn't Deduction work pretty well for intuitive conclusions? Despite the name I always thought so.

 

It could, but the RAW don't work that way. Interrogation is probably a better choice for skill-based lie detection under the current rules.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detecting with multiple senses

 

One possiblity is the Analyse skill. That could work well.