Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

[Narf the Mouse]

Wondering what the forum thinks, because the numbers I came up with seem off to me.

 

For example, an Arming Sword weighs roughly 1-2 kg or 2-4 lbs. I've got it set at SM 10. Hand-and-a-half sword is set at 14...'Olympic Weightlifter' seems a bit off for that.

 

Mostly, I've got no real-world expeirence with swords and am looking for a sanity check.

[Markdoc]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Wondering what the forum thinks, because the numbers I came up with seem off to me.

 

For example, an Arming Sword weighs roughly 1-2 kg or 2-4 lbs. I've got it set at SM 10. Hand-and-a-half sword is set at 14...'Olympic Weightlifter' seems a bit off for that.

 

Mostly, I've got no real-world expeirence with swords and am looking for a sanity check.

 

I look at the STR mins as "STR needed to continuously use the weapon at high speed and a level of force capable of injuring armoured targets". That's way different from "STR needed to twirl the thing around".

 

As an example, when I was doing Aikido, we used to do Kata with bokken which are heavier than a real sword. Doing that, even striking hard (at the air) was no big deal. For summer training, we practiced striking hard but resilient targets (truck tires) with the aim of hitting hard enough to actually make a visible compression. Arms that could swing the sword for 20 minutes of kata without trouble started to shake and tremble spasmodically after a few minutes of that and lost strength after surprisingly few strokes. The people who could keep it up for more than that, tended, I noticed, to have no discernible wrists and forearms like ham hocks.

 

As a result, I have no problems with the STR mins. You can use a weapon that's over your STR min, and it costs relatively little in terms of skill to offset any penalties. But you need to be pretty strong to use it without any penalties at all.

 

cheers, Mark

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Thanks - So maybe double the Endurance cost if the character is under the Str Minimum and make it impossible to wield at all at five Str under?

 

Anyone know about bows and can give me Str Minimum reccomendations?

[CTaylor]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Generally speaking the strength minima set in books are high, too high. A weaker than normal person ought to be able to use a dagger in a fight without trouble, so it ought to require less strength than Joe average. A short sword does not require an unusual person to wield, it should probably be about joe average level. Joe average has 8 STR.

[Markdoc]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Thanks - So maybe double the Endurance cost if the character is under the Str Minimum and make it impossible to wield at all at five Str under?

 

I wouldn't bother with that - the STR required to use the weapons should not be high, so even a really low STR should be able to use it. They just can't use it as effectively.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Generally speaking the strength minima set in books are high' date=' too high. A weaker than normal person ought to be able to use a dagger in a fight without trouble, so it ought to require less strength than Joe average. [/quote']

 

It does. At STR MIN 6, only a child would have problems wielding a dagger without penalty - and there it only misses "no penalty" by 1

 

A short sword does not require an unusual person to wield' date=' it should probably be about joe average level. Joe average has 8 STR.[/quote']

 

A short sword is STR MIN 10. That means a normal person in good shape - like say, a military recruit - can wield it at no penalty at all. A normal person - or even a child - can use a short sword at a -1 penalty. That doesn't sound too unreasonable to me...

 

Remember the definition of STR MIN.

A weapon’s STR Minimum is the minimum STR required not to lift it or wield it, but to wield it effectively. A character with -15 STR is fully capable of picking up a Broad Sword, and can even swing it around in combat if he wants to. But it takes a 12 STR to wield a Broad Sword effectively — to use it in combat Phase after Phase; to make it go exactly where you want it to go; to control its motion, momentum, and aim with precision.

 

cheers, Mark

[CTaylor]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

6 strength can press 120+ lbs, that's pretty heft. A child can use a knife without any penalties other than their innate poor combat ability and lack of weapon familiarity. 3-5 is more resonable. Ditto with a short sword: 8 is a more reasonable level. An ordinary person can fight with a short sword without having to lift weights and get in shape - if they have weapon familiarity.

[Outsider]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Personally, I preferred the old system where STR min was based on the active points of the weapon. I'd consider modifying it so that a 2 handed weapon required 5 less STR though.

 

Examples :

Dagger : 1/2 D6 HKA, +1 OCV = 15 Active Points = 7 Str Min.

Short Sword : 1D6 HKA, +1 OCV = 20 Active Points = 10 Str Min

Great Sword : 2D6 HKA, +1 OCV = 35 Active Points = 17 STR Min, or 12 STR min since it is 2 handed

Pick : 1D6 HKA AP, -1 OCV = 17.5 Active Points = 9 STR Min.

etc

[Markdoc]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

6 strength can press 120+ lbs' date=' that's pretty heft. A child can use a knife without any penalties other than their innate poor combat ability and lack of weapon familiarity. 3-5 is more resonable. Ditto with a short sword: 8 is a more reasonable level. An ordinary person can fight with a short sword without having to lift weights and get in shape - if they have weapon familiarity.[/quote']

 

Shrug. Difference of opinion, I guess. A child with a knife is going to be less dangerous than an ordinary adult with a knife and the ordinary adult less dangerous than a fit, strong man. The current rules give the child a small penalty, the average man no penalty and the strong man a small bonus. I'm just not seeing a problem here.

 

The fact that 6 STR can press 120 lbs is largely irrelevant: no-one is suggesting they can't lift and use the weapon easily: as noted in the rulebook, someone with -15 STR can still use a sword. The question is "Are they as dangerous with it as someone who can press 240?" What about 480?

 

If you want to drop the STR min, all you are doing is increasing the threat so the child gets no penalty, the ordinary adult a small bonus and the strong man a larger bonus. If that's what you want, cool, but it doesn't change the way the rules work (apart from making combat a bit more dangerous).

 

cheers, Mark

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Personally, I preferred the old system where STR min was based on the active points of the weapon. I'd consider modifying it so that a 2 handed weapon required 5 less STR though.

 

Examples :

Dagger : 1/2 D6 HKA, +1 OCV = 15 Active Points = 7 Str Min.

Short Sword : 1D6 HKA, +1 OCV = 20 Active Points = 10 Str Min

Great Sword : 2D6 HKA, +1 OCV = 35 Active Points = 17 STR Min, or 12 STR min since it is 2 handed

Pick : 1D6 HKA AP, -1 OCV = 17.5 Active Points = 9 STR Min.

etc

That makes no sense for, for example, a heavily-enchanted dagger.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

6 strength can press 120+ lbs' date=' that's pretty heft.[/quote']

 

Minor nitpick but... A 6 STR can bench press about 95 lbs. They have a max lift of about 125 lbs, which is the "barely get it off the ground and stagger around" type lift.

[Vondy]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

That makes no sense for' date=' for example, a heavily-enchanted dagger.[/quote']

 

You have stumbled on coherentism's fatal flaw: internal coherency doesn't always survive contact with the external world. Translated into game-speak: a mechanic can be wholly consistent in terms of mathematical function/scale and still make no sense in terms of applied effects. Thus you must have a second veracity test to establish that, beyond internal coherency, the method actually makes sense and accomplishes what you want it to. In hero the math and scaling are the internal coherency check, while the special effects are the external coherency check. This is why, incidentally, I reject strictly mechanistic-mathematical approaches to Hero.

[CTaylor]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Shrug. Difference of opinion, I guess.

 

Sure, and it is up to each GM, I just wanted to give my input on the question

 

A child with a knife is going to be less dangerous than an ordinary adult with a knife and the ordinary adult less dangerous than a fit, strong man.

 

setting aside the child's relative lack of athletic ability and combat agility, the adult will hit harder with a dagger, and a fit, strong man harder yet: thus, more dangerous. Each one will get a higher damage class because of their strength over the weapon's minimum (although with a 2DC weapon they hit the cap pretty quickly).

[Vondy]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

I can't really speak to hand to hand weapon strength minimums. They have always seemed a bit high to me, but I'm not an expert. Markdoc makes a good point about the difference between being able to wield a weapon briefly and being able to do so for an extended period of time. The latter is really a question of fitness rather than raw strength, but the implementation of characteristics in Hero doesn't provide a method for dealing with that distinction. In my own games I use strength minimums for factoring damage and ignore them in terms of being weilding a weapon and combat pens unless the situation is bordering on ridiculous. At that point the player is generally commenting on it as well - or is asking if its even possible. In such cases I usually assign a penalty. One way of modelling the ability to weild a weapon for an extended period would be to assign increased endurance cost for having strength below the recommended minimum as opposed to combat value penalties.

[Outsider]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

That makes no sense for' date=' for example, a heavily-enchanted dagger.[/quote']

 

Your initial example didnt mention that you were looking to set STR mins for magic weapons. Just don't take the "Requires STR Min" limitation on the extra damage or OCV granted by the enchantment and you're fine. If the enchantment makes the thing even easier to wield than a normal example, use as AP/3 as the STR min, or remove it entirely. Once you're doing magic stuff, all bets are off anyway.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Ah, you mean a shortcut. I'm naturally indisposed to them; they have a tendency to be more work in the end than the longer path.

[Vondy]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Ah' date=' you mean a shortcut. I'm naturally indisposed to them; they have a tendency to be more work in the end than the longer path.[/quote']

 

How is choosing not to use a completely optional limitation a shortcut?

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

How is choosing not to use a completely optional limitation a shortcut?

It isn't. Choosing to set the limitation based on active points, rather than weapon weights, is.

A magic system I'm toying with works like this:

 

There are different groups of magic such as Elemental, Scholarly, and Dark, and characters buy levels of power in each of these (Novice, Apprentice, Journeyman, etc). The points paid for these power levels gives them access to spells within these power levels. The spells themselves are paid for with money or learned otherwise: they're free.

You seem to be a bit off-topic. Maybe start your own thread? I'd be interested to see how it works...

 

...So I can steal it, of course.

[CTaylor]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Crud, wrong thread heh... well I'll stick it on the correct one and delete that post! It will be as if it never existed! Sorta. Not really.

[Vondy]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

It isn't. Choosing to set the limitation based on active points, rather than weapon weights, is.

 

 

That's not a shortcut. Its a flawed application of mechanics stemming from flawed system understanding. Effects are hard-coded into the rules. A construct has to pass both tests.

[Outsider]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Nothing is hard-coded into the rules. HERO constantly tells people that they can (and should) change things to suit their own preferences and styles.

 

Narf, I presume you have FH. Have you read the section on Strength minumums on pages 178 & 179?

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Recommendations on Str Minimum for weapons?

 

Yes, I had - However, there's about two years (Based on my post record) between buying it and getting to use it in a game. So a refresh certainly helped, thanks.