Transdimensional PREsence

[Lucius]

The write up of Foxbatmite had a sample power "You will take me seriously now" of boosted PRE.

 

Foxbatmite was defined as an "AI" in the 24th & 1/2 Dimension and most powers allowing it to perceive and effect the campaign world were built Transdimensional.

 

Should the PRE need Transdimensional? Or if an entity can make its presence felt, is that enough to make its PREsence felt?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Transdimensional Palindromedary

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

As a PRE attack is sense based, I'd assume that if the entity making the PRE attack can be 'fully' sensed then the PRE attack works, without needing transdimensional, but that's just my take on it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

It'd be a GM Call as to how it'd work in any given campaign.

 

I'd lean the same way as Sean personally.

[CTaylor]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

You'd need indirect on it too but you could use your presence from another dimension if you bought transdimensional on it. I'd guess that it would be a pretty hefty subtraction to the attack though: you're in another dimension, how seriously should I take that?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

Seeing as they can project themselves AND their will through dimensional space...

 

I'd take it pretty seriously personally.

[ideasmith]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

Not only would I require Transdimensional, since I consider characters in different dimensions inherently Desolid to one another, I would also require Affects Real World, since Presence attacks are attacks. On the other hand, I would count Presence attacks as already Indirect.

[Lucius]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

Not only would I require Transdimensional' date=' since I consider characters in different dimensions inherently Desolid to one another, I would also require Affects Real World, since Presence attacks are attacks. On the other hand, I would count Presence attacks as already Indirect.[/quote']

 

?

 

Are Desolid characters normally unable to PRE attack?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary isn't here. Does that make you nervous?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

?

 

Are Desolid characters normally unable to PRE attack?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary isn't here. Does that make you nervous?

 

No - Desolid does nothing to prevent you from performing a PRE Attack. In fact in some situations it might add a bonus (like if a Desolid Character walks out of an explosion completely unscathed and others don't know they're Desolid).

 

ideasmith is being excessively and unnecessarily harsh in the requirements; but it's his game to deviate that far from RAW with.

[Lucius]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

No - Desolid does nothing to prevent you from performing a PRE Attack. In fact in some situations it might add a bonus (like if a Desolid Character walks out of an explosion completely unscathed and others don't know they're Desolid).

 

ideasmith is being excessively and unnecessarily harsh in the requirements; but it's his game to deviate that far from RAW with.

 

In fact, if Desolid characters can PRE attack and be attacked, it could be taken as precedent for the same being true interdimensionally (assuming of course that mutual perception and communication are possible!)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders anew about The Man Who Wasn't There

[ghost-angel]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

It very well could, yes. Hence why Sean Waters and I hold the same view: no Transdimensional needed for a PRE Attack.

[CTaylor]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

Yeah if it is just a special effect, transdimensional isn't needed. If you are actually a creature in another dimension who wants to presence attack people in this one, you'd need it (and indirect). And I'd probably knock dice off the effect for a disembodied force of will once the characters figured out that's all it was.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

Why would you need Indirect? That's the part I'm not getting from some posts...

 

I can see the logic behind wanting Transdimensional, I don't agree but I see the logic.

 

But Indirect? Not seeing a Rules Reason at all for it.

[ideasmith]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

No - Desolid does nothing to prevent you from performing a PRE Attack.

 

5ER pp. 147-148: Indeed it doesn't.

 

 

Why would you need Indirect? That's the part I'm not getting from some posts...

 

I can see the logic behind wanting Transdimensional, I don't agree but I see the logic.

 

But Indirect? Not seeing a Rules Reason at all for it.

 

5ER, Page 268: Transdimensional can only be applied to indirect powers, although that indirectness need not be due to the Advantage.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

 

See, this is why I listen to you guys... keep me in line. Obviously I don't use Transdimensional enough, I didn't even think to double check the book.

 

Right - Transdimensional plus Indirect

[Lucius]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

Yeah if it is just a special effect' date=' transdimensional isn't needed. If you are actually a creature in another dimension who wants to presence attack people in this one, you'd need it (and indirect). And I'd probably knock dice off the effect for a disembodied force of will once the characters figured out that's all it was.[/quote']

 

This is totally peripheral to the main issue but...

 

Why are you assuming that the only thing the extradimensional entity can project is PRE?

 

Take Foxbatmite for example. He(?) can do a lot of stuff in the Foxbat dimension.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Projection

[Lucius]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

 

See, this is why I listen to you guys... keep me in line. Obviously I don't use Transdimensional enough, I didn't even think to double check the book.

 

Right - Transdimensional plus Indirect

 

I'd argue that PRE is already Indirect.

 

If you're out of sight and behind a wall, but can still hear me bellow "When I catch that ghost angel, ideasmith, and that C Taylor person, I'm going to stuff all three of them into that briefcase full of rules!" I'd say you're subject to a PREsence attack. Probably not a very effective one (-3d6 for reputation, Lucius Alexander has never been known for stuffing people into briefcases.)

 

But basically, I'd argue that if a Desolid person is subject to mutual PRE attacks, so should someone located in another dimension but capable of mutual perception or communication.

 

Hey, as long as we're talking PRE - I understand an AI technically can't suffer them nor make them. I've been told it can't even buy PRE as a Power.

 

I don't really agree with that either.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Subject to Palindromedary attack

[Lucius]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

 

ideasmith is being excessively and unnecessarily harsh in the requirements; but it's his game to deviate that far from RAW with.

 

I think so too. BUT -

 

It can't be denied that letting something have an impact in one reality while lurking in a completely different continuum, is very powerful.

 

I mean, that's how I build Gods.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary convinced me to acknowledge that with a Trance Dimensional PREsence Attack

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

..............

 

 

 

5ER, Page 268: Transdimensional can only be applied to indirect powers, although that indirectness need not be due to the Advantage.

 

One more rule I didn't read properly

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

I'd argue that PRE is already Indirect.

 

If you're out of sight and behind a wall, but can still hear me bellow "When I catch that ghost angel, ideasmith, and that C Taylor person, I'm going to stuff all three of them into that briefcase full of rules!" I'd say you're subject to a PREsence attack. Probably not a very effective one (-3d6 for reputation, Lucius Alexander has never been known for stuffing people into briefcases.)

 

But basically, I'd argue that if a Desolid person is subject to mutual PRE attacks, so should someone located in another dimension but capable of mutual perception or communication.

 

Hey, as long as we're talking PRE - I understand an AI technically can't suffer them nor make them. I've been told it can't even buy PRE as a Power.

 

I don't really agree with that either.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Subject to Palindromedary attack

 

 

Absolutely: mind you I'd suggest that someone who is desolid and believes they can not hurt is unlikely to be impressed by the threat of a good kicking, and someone who believes that someone who is desolid can not hurt them without becoming solid, and vulnerable, is unlikely to be impressed by a threat to 'drift through you in a ghostly fashion'.

 

Of course PRE attacks need a good long look at anyway IMO.

[CTaylor]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

Why are you assuming that the only thing the extradimensional entity can project is PRE?

 

I'm just addressing the question: interdimensional use of presence.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

At this point, I think the interesting question is - Does Presence have some, or enough, inherently Indirect properties to not require the Indirect Advantage?

 

A good point has certainly been brought up, a verbal PRE Attack doesn't require you be seen to have an effect.

[ideasmith]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

At this point, I think the interesting question is - Does Presence have some, or enough, inherently Indirect properties to not require the Indirect Advantage?

 

A good point has certainly been brought up, a verbal PRE Attack doesn't require you be seen to have an effect.

 

Also:

 

One can make a PRE attack through a window.

 

One can make a PRE attack over the telephone, or over closed-circuit television.

 

One can make a PRE attack through a Mind Link using Telepathy.

 

One can make a PRE attack to a movie camera, and possible have it affect the audience of the movie.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

PRE attacks are desperately mushy when it comes to definition, and that is fine, or would be, were they not so potentially powerful. They are indirect, AoE, 0 END, take no time and do not constitute a combat action and, if you pay as much for PRE as you would for any other major attack power, utterly devastating.

 

I've said this before, but I don't think PRE attacks actually exist outside of Hero. I can not think of a single example which could not be adequately explained by a failed PER roll or an appropriate use of a social skill. Perhaps one of you good people can?

[Kenn]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

See Wesley's "To the Pain" speech from the end of "The Princess Bride" for a non-Hero example of a Presence Attack.

 

A presence attack is essentially brute force social interaction. Where conversation, persuasion or seduction are all based on skill, a presence attack is just exerting one's will to generate a gut level emotion. I think they exist, and, in my experience, I think they get used more often than people think about.

 

And I think that they are inherently indirect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transdimensional PREsence

 

See Wesley's "To the Pain" speech from the end of "The Princess Bride" for a non-Hero example of a Presence Attack.

 

A presence attack is essentially brute force social interaction. Where conversation, persuasion or seduction are all based on skill, a presence attack is just exerting one's will to generate a gut level emotion. I think they exist, and, in my experience, I think they get used more often than people think about.

 

And I think that they are inherently indirect.

 

Interesting example, but PRE attacks are instant not extended. This is a carefully constructed bluff. I don't see why it isn't a very successful use of the bluff or even the intimidation skill. WHAT? We don't have an intimidation or bluff skill? Sheesh. Maybe persuasion then, or maybe we need a whole new system of social interaction.

 

I have some thoughts on that...