Not Realy a Steve Level Question

[Ndreare]

How mach of a limitation would it be on a V.P.P. to only be able to use one power of a single FX. Basicly I am trying to do the old style variable advantage and thought V.P.P. to be my best bet. So I am Creating a character with a V.P.P. of Force Manipulation Only Red Flame TK -?. (Red Flames are only the way the powers look there is no heat or non kenetic energy available.)

 

I initialy thought -1 to -2 but then I thought that could be to cheap. but then -3/4 would be to expensive, so i thought to get other peoples oppinions.

[badger3k]

Re: Not Realy a Steve Level Question

 

Originally posted by Ndreare

How mach of a limitation would it be on a V.P.P. to only be able to use one power of a single FX. Basicly I am trying to do the old style variable advantage and thought V.P.P. to be my best bet. So I am Creating a character with a V.P.P. of Force Manipulation Only Red Flame TK -?. (Red Flames are only the way the powers look there is no heat or non kenetic energy available.)

 

I initialy thought -1 to -2 but then I thought that could be to cheap. but then -3/4 would be to expensive, so i thought to get other peoples oppinions.

 

To me it fits in with the "limited class of powers" -1/2 limitation (p 209 FRED), since force manipulation can describe quite a few powers (EB, Entangle, Flight, Force Field/Wall, etc.

 

Unless I misread your post - if you mean one power as one actual power (i.e. telekinesis) then I'd probably go with the -1 very limited modifier.

[Ndreare]

Yes I mean 1 actual power TK only (The Force Manip. is a fx) however I want to do week 0-end TK and Strong 50 STR TK or 20 STR AOE TK.

 

So I was thinking this to be farly limated but there realy are not enough examples of V.P.P. to go off of.

[Guest Keneton]

Why were you using Variable Advantage? I am missing your goal, but I do want to help.

 

If you do not like Variable Advatage use several naked advantages such as. . .

 

AP (+1/2), on up to 60 Active points in TK, Requires a Power Skill Roll (-1/2) 30 Active/20 Real.

 

or

 

Area Effect Radius (+1) On up to 60 Active points of TK, Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2) 60 Active/40 real.

 

ETC.

[JmOz]

Depending on the power I would say -1 is a good starting point

 

The goal he is trying for (One I would use a MP for BTW) is to be able to have the base power at different levels depending on the number of advantages he is using.

 

MY PERSONAL WAY would be:

 

90 Point MP:

9u TK 60 str

9u Tk 40 Str (+1/4 advantages, +1/2)

9u TK 30 Str (+1/2 advantages, +1)

9u TK 20 Str (+1 Advantages, +2)

9u TK 10 Str (+2 Advantages, +4)

 

I would probably drop most of the second and third for the specific advantages wanted while leaving the last two as a catch all

[Ndreare]

I want the flexabilaty of the V.P.P. but I can also see the advantage of having the predetermained slots of a multipower.

 

Keneton: I am not sure if you are familiar variable advantage but it does not allow you to sacrifice power for advantages the way I would like. I am thinking while using full power the power is very crude a basic TK but while using lower levels he is the absolute master of his trick. (I will "assume" you know how the advantage works as you are so active on these boards and seem to be very in touch with the rules. I often agree with your other post.)

[Guest Keneton]

My knowledge of Varialble adavantage (put very simply) is that basiclayy you pay twice a smuch for an advantage base. Example if you wanted to uses any +1/2 or two +1/4's youd pay +1. If you wanted any conbo up to +1 you'd pay +2.

 

For what you are doingthis may seem cool. Another way would be the naked adavatages that I said before or Jims suggestion of an all inclusive Multipower.

 

I hada charcetr built this way called scorcher. In the bestiary there is a hunter Killer Robot built this way. If you have the supplement, look it up.

 

Sorry I could not be of more help. Thanx for the kind words about my posts. I ususally tick people off without meaning too with my direct style.

 

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Ndreare

I want the flexabilaty of the V.P.P. but I can also see the advantage of having the predetermained slots of a multipower.

 

Keneton: I am not sure if you are familiar variable advantage but it does not allow you to sacrifice power for advantages the way I would like. I am thinking while using full power the power is very crude a basic TK but while using lower levels he is the absolute master of his trick. (I will "assume" you know how the advantage works as you are so active on these boards and seem to be very in touch with the rules. I often agree with your other post.)

 

Hmmmm, interesting, I like this notion and would be interested in seeing a definitive rules approach. It may not be a Steve rules question but you might want to put a shot out to Steve in the title of a thread here and get his opinion.

 

If it's a single power, I'd go at least -1, and if it really is going to be played limited enough (but I don't think so given your statements) it could be as high as -2. I would go -2, for example, if it were going to be a "true" EB which simply had varying advantages and lims but never was used to, for example, simulate TK or simulate a Flash. However, if you're coupling this with power stunts and getting a lot of extra flexibility, -1 seems wholly adequate.

 

You know, I really like that you are addressing this issue the more I think about it. What you're really coming up with, I feel, is the crux of what an EC really is in most super-heroic stories! It's the ability to manipulate this one single "trick" or element in all sorts of ways, and I think in comics in general, those elementals really work that way, with their big blasts being powerful but simple, and the "technique" stuff being less powerful but more ornate.

 

So if we find a good solution to this, I think in super-hero games it should REPLACE Elemental Controls (yeah you heard me right) at least 50% of the time or maybe even 90% of the time. Basically you create this power base with a number of points and the distribution of your element can vary within those limits. The key difference between this VPP and EC is really that there is a better governance than in regular VPPs, more flexibility than ECs, but overall a tighter conceptual framework, if it were fleshed out correct.

 

And as we think about it, it also illuminates the fundamental similarity between VPP and EC, and calls into question the two separate frameworks. I would suggest in fact that it may be possible to create a singular framework which replaces both but serves both functions.

 

Perhaps it would be something like an EC with an open-ended number of slots. I don't know. I just wanted to throw some thoughts out while it strikes me and see what strikes back.

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by zornwil

So if we find a good solution to this, I think in super-hero games it should REPLACE Elemental Controls (yeah you heard me right) at least 50% of the time or maybe even 90% of the time. Basically you create this power base with a number of points and the distribution of your element can vary within those limits. The key difference between this VPP and EC is really that there is a better governance than in regular VPPs, more flexibility than ECs, but overall a tighter conceptual framework, if it were fleshed out correct.

 

I don't think I would replace either of the other Frameworks with this construct as all to often a character with say "Force Powers" would want to create a force wall, or Force Field something this construct would not allow. The way I am making the character he has a 15+15 EC for his flight, force field, entangle and weak force wall, Then he has his big 75 point V.P.P. that only allows TK as the power in it. So if he wanted to say use missle deflection with the TK fx he would not be allowed to.

 

Although I can see more than simply this situation were this might come up such as a character who can create "Force Fields" that is only allowed to have force wall and force field as powers in his V.P.P.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Ndreare

I don't think I would replace either of the other Frameworks with this construct as all to often a character with say "Force Powers" would want to create a force wall, or Force Field something this construct would not allow. The way I am making the character he has a 15+15 EC for his flight, force field, entangle and weak force wall, Then he has his big 75 point V.P.P. that only allows TK as the power in it. So if he wanted to say use missle deflection with the TK fx he would not be allowed to.

 

Although I can see more than simply this situation were this might come up such as a character who can create "Force Fields" that is only allowed to have force wall and force field as powers in his V.P.P.

 

My point was that discovering the best solution to this might well lead to a framework that works for all other combos of powers, not that the framework for this specifically would suit all such combos. In other words, if we understand how to best apply the "explosion" of an element (which is what this particular one is) in such a limited but still elemental way, it might better illuminate how to handle EC and VPP into a better format, so that it handles the singular power exaggerated as well as many powers which really represent some basic commonality.

 

But I haven't thought about this since this post, just generating thoughts.

[Farkling]

Oh BOY - FrameWORKS !!

 

I am a believer in the philosophy that many EC's could more easily be modelled as VPP's...except to get multiple powers you need multiple limitations, or a standard set. If it's a standard set of limitations, players feel hosed on powers...

 

As it stands, if I have a 60 AP VPP, I am allowed TWO powers at -1, 3 powers at -2. Or else the GM allows construction of a VPP that overreaches campaign boundaires, and has to apply a control cost llimitation of "no power over X AP" - and once again...the player feels hosed for the charges.

 

Admittedly, an advanced character (Storm? IceMan? Metamorpho? Fire? Parasite? Ice? Thor? C'mon...Thor has a VPP- "I call upon the power of Asgard to exceed my character designs")...I digress...an advanced character should have an EC built in some kind of VPP...if the character wants to trade ability for versatility. After a character has campaigned for some time, I have allowed an EC to be traded in on a large VPP...but then the player has to actively think of what powers when...but it adds noncombat versatility.

 

Um...I am embarrassed to admit after my previous Frameworking discussion that I have allowed Elemental Control specialist to buy a VPP for Elemental effects ( i am SO on the ONE Framework per character side of the debates)...in addition to their EC framework...but that's a heavy expense for a playing PC...they hardly ever save up 45 points for a single purchase. And in my mind, I guess I have allowed it because it is typically a "slow burn" slot...the character used it for flavor powers out of combat...if I remember right, it couldn't shift in combat...I'll need to see if I can find that old sheet...