Bricks and Weightlessness

[DrFurious]

Re: Re: Bricks and Weightlessness

 

Originally posted by Argus

Why this will not work.

 

Take a feather, which is almost weightless.

Now throw it.

Did it really go anywhere?

 

To throw something it needs some mass.

 

A.

Take a sheet of paper, which is almost weightless.

Now throw it.

Did it really go anywhere?

Ans: no.

 

Now crumple it up into a ball.

Now throw it.

Did it really go anywhere?

Ans: yes. (provided your arm is stronger than a limp noodle

 

The paper has the same mass (and weight for that matter).

What you are seeing is the effect of air resistance.

 

!DrFURIOUS!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Better yet, fold that sheet of paper into a paper airplane. Choose the right design (configuration of folds) and you'll be AMAZED at how far it will go...and yes, it still has the same mass as the unfolded paper!

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Re: Bricks and Weightlessness

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

BTW, here's a way you can rationalize this. There is a limit to the amount of velocity you can put on an object -- you can't make it go any faster than you can physically move your arm. Thus, while your 100 STR character can pick up a regular football a lot more easily than a dwarf-star-alloy football, he really can't make full use of his strength when throwing it; once you've accelerated it to the speed you can swing your arm around and snap your wrist, that's pretty much all the force you can give it. Someone with the strength to pick up a dwarf-star-alloy football can perhaps accelerate it to about the same speed as a regular football, if he has the strength to make his arm move at full speed while holding it.

 

Of course, this neglects the fact that a dwarf-star-alloy football would be impacted a lot less than a regular football by air resistance, and would have a lot more KE to lose to begin with. Really, you should be able to throw it *farther* than a regular football, assuming you have the strength to throw it in the first place. But, if we assume that air resistance has a negligible impact on most thrown objects, then the existing throwing rules are perhaps not totally out to lunch.

 

 

When I first got started as a GM for Champions so many years ago, one of my players designed a brick, not unlike my new character and he had one desire, to be able to throw a baseball into orbit. You know, after 20 years, he still hasn't managed to do it, within the rules of HERO. I just think its a little sad he can't have his dream.

One of the classic scenes in comics is Superman hurling something HUGE into space, while FLYING. Now this totally denies all Laws of Physics but isn't that what the genre is all about? And isn't one of the cornerstones of HERO the ability to design anything? Am I going to have to create a power for my brick like "Tranform Baseball on Earth to Baseball in Orbit"? It should be a lot simpler then having to design a power. Why do I hear Steve proclaiming "It will all be explained in the forcoming "Ultimate Brick."?

 

BTW, Zed-F? Its a comic book, it doesn't have to be rationalized!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Re: Re: Bricks and Weightlessness

 

Originally posted by Ghost Archer

When I first got started as a GM for Champions so many years ago, one of my players designed a brick, not unlike my new character and he had one desire, to be able to throw a baseball into orbit. You know, after 20 years, he still hasn't managed to do it, within the rules of HERO. I just think its a little sad he can't have his dream.

 

Use my proposed system of "use 5 points of effective throwing STR to double distance thrown instead". 13 doublings = x16,000 (the way HERO does it, going 64 - 125 - 250 - etc.). This equates to 65 points of STR being used to double the distance; what remains is used to figure the distance itself.

 

Assuming for argument's sake the baseball weighs about the same as a football, it takes -25 STR to throw one; in other words, increase the brick's STR by 25 when calculating how far he can throw it. Since you need 65 points of STR just to get the proper doubling of distance, that means the brick needs a native STR of 40. Since he still has to have some STR remaining to perform the throw, bump that 10 more points to 50. Most bricks will have a STR of 50.

 

Low Earth Orbital altitude (LEO) is about 60 miles or 90 km. 90 km = 45,000 hexes (approx). Divide 45,000 by 16,000 and you'll find that our brick must be able to throw that baseball a grand total of 2.8 (round up to 3) hexes in order for the doublings suggested to equal LEO altitude. The 10 STR above and beyond what's needed for the doubling should do this nicely, since that's only 20 feet or so, and people who IRL would have less than a 10 STR can throw a baseball that far.

 

So...using my system, any brick with a STR of 50 or greater could throw an object to orbital altitude; how big an object will depend on the amount of STR over 50 a brick has.

 

As noted before, I'd suggest making the brick make a "Power" skill check, with a -1 penalty for each 10 points of STR converted to "doubling the distance". That'd be a -6 penalty in the case being discussed, which doesn't seem unreasonable...surely it takes some skill (and/or practice) to get the angle, etc. just right.

 

That having been said, I feel compelled to note that a baseball tossed to orbital height probably wouldn't actually ACHIEVE orbit; rather, it would hit its apogee and then plummet back to Earth because it doesn't have the velocity to maintain orbit. At least, real-world physics-wise, it wouldn't. Since this is a game based on comic books, you could just as easily say that getting it to that altitude also involves giving it enough velocity to achieve orbit...and I suspect your player would be absolutely thrilled by that!

 

Perhaps best of all from your perspective, it doesn't involve writing up a Power just to do that...it only involves extending a common HERO mechanic (5 active points = doubling of effect) to the distance something can be thrown.

[Zed-F]

Re: Re: Re: Bricks and Weightlessness

 

When I first got started as a GM for Champions so many years ago, one of my players designed a brick, not unlike my new character and he had one desire, to be able to throw a baseball into orbit. You know, after 20 years, he still hasn't managed to do it, within the rules of HERO. I just think its a little sad he can't have his dream.

One of the classic scenes in comics is Superman hurling something HUGE into space, while FLYING. Now this totally denies all Laws of Physics but isn't that what the genre is all about? And isn't one of the cornerstones of HERO the ability to design anything? Am I going to have to create a power for my brick like "Tranform Baseball on Earth to Baseball in Orbit"? It should be a lot simpler then having to design a power. Why do I hear Steve proclaiming "It will all be explained in the forcoming "Ultimate Brick."?

 

Nah, I'd just buy a megascale EB in my "brick tricks" multipower, with a OIF Object of Opportunity, defined as throwing stuff *really* fast. Obviously, he wouldn't be able to pick up and throw really significant objects this way (like battleships, or villains) but he could impart escape velocity on a baseball that he was throwing AT a villain... though he would probably miss unless he also was a megascale distance away and had a lot of telescopic vision.

 

Or, you could just go with Dr. Anomaly's system if you prefer.

 

BTW, Zed-F? Its a comic book, it doesn't have to be rationalized! [/b]

Not unless you want to, no. I just presented it as an option.

[J4y]

So...using my system, any brick with a STR of 50 or greater could throw an object to orbital altitude; how big an object will depend on the amount of STR over 50 a brick has.

 

Which could easily allow players to suddenly turn a grab into a killing attack as they grab the villian then throw them into outer space, forget about simply pile-driving them into the ground for insane amounts of damage at would would effectivly be several times mach speed which is what this doubling allows.

 

I think everyone would be required to buy density increase and/or flight in that world!

[zornwil]

Originally posted by J4y

So...using my system, any brick with a STR of 50 or greater could throw an object to orbital altitude; how big an object will depend on the amount of STR over 50 a brick has.

 

Which could easily allow players to suddenly turn a grab into a killing attack as they grab the villian then throw them into outer space, forget about simply pile-driving them into the ground for insane amounts of damage at would would effectivly be several times mach speed which is what this doubling allows.

 

I think everyone would be required to buy density increase and/or flight in that world!

 

Yeah, I think Dr. Anomaly's system is pretty good with what he's put into it (Power Skill, -1/10 points additional used or some-such), and I'd allow it as a "stunt" (fortunately I don't think my group's brick lurks here!) but not as an ongoing attack without paying for something. But it's a good solution for those who feel otherwise or as a stunt, I'd just say Dr. A's Power Skill point should really be taken into consideration, with that it has the right flavor IMHO. And personally I like to see increased usage of Power Skill.

[Dr. Anomaly]

I *did* think about it being abused, but with the notes in the "Power" Skill (if a player uses the same stunt frequently, they must buy it as a seperate Power) I figured that, with a little GM oversight, would curb that problem.

 

Another possibility is that in addition to the other things I already said go into it, you could require that it be performed like a Haymaker (goes off the end of the following Segment). This would give a living foe a chance to break free, or for the foe's henchmen/team-mates/whatever to intervene, and seems a reasonable requirement since the brick would probably have to "wind up" for the throw. Or maybe a brick is at 1/2 DCV when performing the manuever. Also, if the about-to-be-orbited foe tries to break free, remember than any STR the brick is devoting to extending his range WON'T be there for resisting the foe's attempt to break out of the Grab.

 

In any case, by salting the manuever with a few reasonable requirements (salt to your taste as GM) you can let a brick perform this classic "mighty stunt" without it becoming unbalancing.

 

Cheers!

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly

I *did* think about it being abused, but with the notes in the "Power" Skill (if a player uses the same stunt frequently, they must buy it as a seperate Power) I figured that, with a little GM oversight, would curb that problem.

 

Another possibility is that in addition to the other things I already said go into it, you could require that it be performed like a Haymaker (goes off the end of the following Segment). This would give a living foe a chance to break free, or for the foe's henchmen/team-mates/whatever to intervene, and seems a reasonable requirement since the brick would probably have to "wind up" for the throw. Or maybe a brick is at 1/2 DCV when performing the manuever. Also, if the about-to-be-orbited foe tries to break free, remember than any STR the brick is devoting to extending his range WON'T be there for resisting the foe's attempt to break out of the Grab.

 

In any case, by salting the manuever with a few reasonable requirements (salt to your taste as GM) you can let a brick perform this classic "mighty stunt" without it becoming unbalancing.

 

Cheers!

 

I don't know if this is "too small" but it would be a good DH article. You should think of submitting.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Hmmm...there's a thought. I've had articles published in magazines before, but it's been a looooong time. Will they take an article whose central idea you've already posted on a discussion board? I know there are some places that won't.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly

Hmmm...there's a thought. I've had articles published in magazines before, but it's been a looooong time. Will they take an article whose central idea you've already posted on a discussion board? I know there are some places that won't.

 

Sorry, I don't know, but based on comments I've "heard" around these parts, I think so. You could try posting that question in the Company forum, they're pretty good about answering there.

[Farkling]

MegaScale purchased on STR...applied to Range...now you can redefine the size of the hexes...and toss things into orbit. The GM can decrease the initial Hex size to something like 10m...

[Dr. Anomaly]

I've done it that way, too, and if I thought a player NEEDED to purchase a Power to do it because they were using a Power Stunt too often, that's how I'd do it.

 

The main reasoning behind my other suggestion is to let a brick occassionally do this classic 'brick trick' without HAVING to buy a Power to do it.