Passing through small gaps

[Sean Waters]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

Shapeshifting, in Hero, and for that matter, stretching, have relatively little effect on combat, and so do not make for 'powerhouse' builds.

 

Multiform allows for a complete re-structuring and so, as Ice9 points out, you can get a very combat-efficient character out of the concept, but, well, no - the stretch/shapeshift power is not a combat power. In some scenarios shapeshift is unbelievably useful - anything where interaction and subterfuge are vital and it is almost unbeatable.

 

I have suggested that stretching should be a movement power, costed as other movement powers, at 2 points per 2m, and that would re-dress the balance somewhat: you'd spend the points on stretching as your movement power and get all the combat advantages - like movethrough damage.

 

However, at some point a tension arises between the ability to realise concept in a way that allows you to differentiate between builds (i.e. you see a mechanical difference not just a sfx difference) and the balancing of points in terms of combat efficiency (or, more generally, 'game effiency'). If you strip out deformation (or something like it) from stretching/shapeshift - assuming they could do it before - then they become less point efficient BUT you have greater ability to realise precice concept.

 

I suppose we need to decide which path to tread - we can not walk them both.

[Beast]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

and you have for 5 pts negate any non fully englobing sfx

when contortionist at 3 points only adds 1 dc to escape by per point made by

the rules have that you can harden vs t-port

shrinking I have no problem with

 

I see you as just trying to make a new power when the tools already exist for the effect you want to create

and your balance vs those other tools is off by loads

 

also most entangles ,like attack powers are in a multipower so the limitation value is minimal

I say you are wrong

 

First off being able to cancel entangles and (by your build) ignore all damage from attacks is worth 27 points.

 

Second, the deformation power specifically doesn't cancel entangle unless the GM allows it based on sfx AND (and this was not there, I accept, but...) the sort of sfx that I have in mind should be reflected in the build: an escapable entangle might be one where you get wrapped up in something with bits sticking out. That is worth a limitation.

 

Anyway, the system acknowledges that various power can affect entangles: shrinking, growth, stretching, whatever. That's rubbish too: build the damn thing properly. Entangle should be considered, by default, englobing and power proof (including teleport). If it isn't, you get a limitation.

 

So basic deformation is worth 5 points...IMO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

and you have for 5 pts negate any non fully englobing sfx

when contortionist at 3 points only adds 1 dc to escape by per point made by

the rules have that you can harden vs t-port

shrinking I have no problem with

 

I see you as just trying to make a new power when the tools already exist for the effect you want to create

and your balance vs those other tools is off by loads

 

also most entangles ,like attack powers are in a multipower so the limitation value is minimal

 

 

If you look at the OP then you will see that 5 points gets you the ability to squeeze through bars but not a mesh unless the holes are bigger than chain link. 10 points gets you the ability to squeeze through chicken wire and 20 gets the the ability to squeeze through a sieve. So I don't think you are right in suggesting 5 points negates non-englobing entangles, even if the GM allows it.

 

If you do have a problem there, allow people buying entangles to take a limitation (non-englobing -1/4) to reduce the cost of an entangle that can not hold certain targets.

 

In any event, how is that any more 'sfx driven' than shrinking negating such entangles - you are not paying more for the ability? You have no problem with that but the principle is the same.

 

You also get the ability to escape many such entangles with touch shapeshift - and pay nothing more for it.

 

I'd (were I writing the game and taking into account the limtied utility of entangle anyway) say that entangle can not be escaped by teleport unless the TP is AP.

 

Putting this in a seperate ability allows you to consistently pay for this. I'm not sure why that is a bad thing.

[Beast]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

Desolid at 40 points is I see as what it takes to negate just about all entangles that are not hardened or affect desolid

I use it as a base point since it is what we have already

may not pass through solid objects(-1/2)if is not water/air tight you can get through it

shape shift (25 pts any shape)gets you to about the same place with a bit more vesatility in other areas

 

you do have to pay for the power and the power give the payer that ability

you seem to want to break tool kit down to the subatomic level instead of keeping it at the nuts and bots level

 

those same 3 levels you give are the same as the discussion about arrow/bullet/laser on missile defection

I take the limitation not all englobing sieve level

that just makes it so you have to take deform to sieve level

I got the limitation and you had to spend to the sieve level

 

if my entagle is say based on totally incasing you in wood,vines ,and leaves

and you cannot t-port out of it

how could you teleport out of your house made of wood or underground

hardened should not be free for the first level

 

teleport and desolid by discription allow you to pass through objects unless the object is your bane(desolid cannot pass through)or hardened against it

 

you would in effect have desolid cost 60 pt and teleport 3pts per inch

 

 

 

If you look at the OP then you will see that 5 points gets you the ability to squeeze through bars but not a mesh unless the holes are bigger than chain link. 10 points gets you the ability to squeeze through chicken wire and 20 gets the the ability to squeeze through a sieve. So I don't think you are right in suggesting 5 points negates non-englobing entangles, even if the GM allows it.

 

If you do have a problem there, allow people buying entangles to take a limitation (non-englobing -1/4) to reduce the cost of an entangle that can not hold certain targets.

 

In any event, how is that any more 'sfx driven' than shrinking negating such entangles - you are not paying more for the ability? You have no problem with that but the principle is the same.

 

You also get the ability to escape many such entangles with touch shapeshift - and pay nothing more for it.

 

I'd (were I writing the game and taking into account the limtied utility of entangle anyway) say that entangle can not be escaped by teleport unless the TP is AP.

 

Putting this in a seperate ability allows you to consistently pay for this. I'm not sure why that is a bad thing.

[schir1964]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

...you do have to pay for the power and the power give the payer that ability you seem to want to break tool kit down to the subatomic level instead of keeping it at the nuts and bots level...

Actually, that would be me. (8^D)

Sean does not even come close in that regard. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Beast]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

I would have you at the string level ;-p

 

 

Actually, that would be me. (8^D)

Sean does not even come close in that regard. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

[thread=74452]Protean Form[/thread]

Thanks to Jaws, here was my version of this mechanic.

 

- Christopher Mullins