Passing through small gaps

[Sean Waters]

I've been thinking about shapeshifting and stretching and such and there are a number of things that 'logically' they should let you do. However, such potential abilities either have to come with the power (and then you apply limits tot eh power if they are not present) or have to be paid for separately. I'm in favour of the latter approach. So...deformation...

Deformation

Body Affecting/Movement Power

Costs END

This is the power to move through obstacles that would normally prevent such movement. This causes no damage to the obstacles you circumvent.

For 5 points you can squeeze into small spaces as if your bones were made of rubber. This will allow you to slip many bonds and squeeze through the bars of a cage, but not a mesh (basically anything much bigger than a chain link fence and you can pass straight through). Each 1m of ‘obstacle’ (or part thereof) that you pass through slows your movement by 1m. You can also fold your body into spaces: you can turn yourself into a sphere or cube. GMs should consider a situational bonus to any concealment roll if there is somewhere you can hide that a normal person of your .

For 10 points you can squeeze through small spaces as if your flesh were a thick gel or bread dough, so that includes meshes, down to about 1cm squares.

For 20 points you can squeeze through small spaces as if you are made of water.

Interaction with other powers and game effects

Deformation provides no defensive abilities but it would be appropriate to link defences to deformation. Similarly Deformation gives no bonus to escaping a grab or entangle, but (although the GM may make individual exceptions depending on sfx). Although it is logical that this ‘mass shift’ would allow a form of stretching, it doesn’t – if you want to stretch, buy stretching and link.

[Alibear]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

I thought that was pissing through small gaps for a second.

Hero really can model everything.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

SOLUTION: Sean, buy EDM Time Travel, and go get Hero 6e - where this ability will be added according to Steve.

 

Alibear may have to wait for a future edition...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

SOLUTION: Sean, buy EDM Time Travel, and go get Hero 6e - where this ability will be added according to Steve.

 

Alibear may have to wait for a future edition...

 

 

It was kinda that comment that made me think of this, to be honest: I'm not sure that the ability to deform your body should necessarily be a function just of stretching: I can see a character made of silly putty who can squeeze through tight gaps but can not substantially change the length of his arms.

 

I can also see a shapeshifter being able to do this - which he could if he bought stretching too, but not really otherwise (although we still have that orphan 'touch shapeshift=actual shapeshift' thing, so maybe we wind up with two different ways to do the same thing, which is arguably worse).

 

I can also see a character who is not actually a shapeshifter or a stretcher being able to circumvent barriers this way.

 

Also I'm not sure that stretching necessarily implies the ability to change relative proportion: you could have telescopic arms rather than a mushy skeleton.

 

Finally, and we'll have to wait and see on this one, is how it will be implemented: how will the amount you spend on stretching affect the gap size you can squeeze through? If it is an ability you get if you have any stretching at all then added stretching has reduced utility and if it is related, the ability to squeeze through very small gaps will have a high cost, especially if you do not want to include stretching.

 

All in all it seems better to me to be a seperate ability you buy if it fits concept rather than a part of another power you strip the bits out of that you want: look what a mess 'desolification' can become...which is actually a retaed ability (and informed the cost structure I suggested).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

Finally, and we'll have to wait and see on this one, is how it will be implemented: how will the amount you spend on stretching affect the gap size you can squeeze through? If it is an ability you get if you have any stretching at all then added stretching has reduced utility and if it is related, the ability to squeeze through very small gaps will have a high cost, especially if you do not want to include stretching.

Wasn’t there an example given? Something like “if you have enough Stretching to double your height you will be half as thin” or some such.

You make a very good point about telescoping limbs though. Inspector Gadget had a huge amount of stretching (he could do his legs arms and neck at full length at the same time) but would not have the “thinning effect” of the new Stretching. Of course, you could always add a Limitation…

[Sean Waters]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

Wasn’t there an example given? Something like “if you have enough Stretching to double your height you will be half as thin” or some such.

You make a very good point about telescoping limbs though. Inspector Gadget had a huge amount of stretching (he could do his legs arms and neck at full length at the same time) but would not have the “thinning effect” of the new Stretching. Of course, you could always add a Limitation…

 

I was thinking that desolidification is 'pass through anything' and costs 40 points, so that should be an absolute point cap on the cost of that sort of ability. Even if the cost of stretching has gone down to (say) 1 point per metre*, 40 points gets you +40m stretching, or about 21x your normal 'height'. That should let you reduce your cross sectional area in the other two dimensions to about (assuming you chest is 40cmx20 cm) 9cmx4.5cm (or around 6x6 square), which is still a pretty big hole: you'd not be able to pass through, for instance, chicken wire. You'd struggle to get through a chain link fence.

 

It also means that if you want to be able to pass through something small, without using limited desolid,and all the mess that entails, you are going to have to buy massive amount of stretching: to halve the cross sectional area again (i.e. halve both dimesnions down to about 3cmx3cm you'd need to quadruple your stretch: 160m of stretch. That sounds excessive to me.

 

So that is why I thought a seperate power might work better.

 

Caveat: someone better check my maths on this because I'm a lawyer, not a mathematician, dammit!

 

 

 

*i.e. the same as movement which, IMO, stretching IS

[Sean Waters]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

I thought that was pissing through small gaps for a second.

Hero really can model everything.

 

 

Oh, yes - just buy some levels with PS.

 

I'm letting you guess what PS stands for...

[Ice9]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

I actually wish this wasn't added to Stretching; removing velocity damage from it was a good start, but this adds in to the number of things you have to limit out from it to represent anything that isn't Mr. Fantastic.

 

I mean, when a spear has to be represented as:

Stretching, No Noncombat Stretching, Direct Only, No Velocity Damage, One "Body Part" Only ... it gets a bit clunky.

 

Spears, extending robot arms, telekinetic powers, spring attack - there are more forms of stretching which don't modify the shape of your body than which do.

[schir1964]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

I actually wish this wasn't added to Stretching; removing velocity damage from it was a good start' date=' but this adds in to the number of things you have to limit out from it to represent anything that [i']isn't[/i] Mr. Fantastic.

 

I mean, when a spear has to be represented as:

Stretching, No Noncombat Stretching, Direct Only, No Velocity Damage, One "Body Part" Only ... it gets a bit clunky.

 

Spears, extending robot arms, telekinetic powers, spring attack - there are more forms of stretching which don't modify the shape of your body than which do.

This would not even be an issue if there were a new Characteristic: Reach that would represent the distance a character can engage in HTH/Manipulation by the extension of one's limbs (but not stretching). But that is another thread. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

This would not even be an issue if there were a new Characteristic: Reach that would represent the distance a character can engage in HTH/Manipulation by the extension of one's limbs (but not stretching). But that is another thread. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I think this is a good point: we think of reach as a limited form of stretching but it isn't, really.

 

I'm not sure that we actually need a separate characteristic though as I doubt it would be used often enough to justify it.

 

However, we could have a new power that 'does' reach. For instance, a spear can attack at a couple of metres range with the stabby bit but is pretty useless except as a quarterstaff if the opponent is standing on your toes.

 

In fact, let us not overcomplicate: or things like that we could get away with defining an effective range: normally you can attack opponents in adjacent hexes with a HtH atatck but I can see nothing objectionable about simply saying that to attack effectviely with a spear you have to have a hex between you and your opponent. Call it +0 and we are good.

 

Taking that one step further remove the concept of melee range and replace it with 'specific' range, that being the point at which you can attack (adjacent hex by default, but could be any distance - you can not attack closer or further away without moving) as opposed to variable range (the normal 'range' advantage/power component).

 

Cool.

[schir1964]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

I'm not sure that we actually need a separate characteristic though as I doubt it would be used often enough to justify it.

I disagree. All characters have reach, and depending on the character's size, that value changes. Just like all character's have leaping, but depending on what the character is, that value might change, but the majority of the time, the value remains at the default. But that is neither here nor there.

 

However' date=' we could have a new power that 'does' reach. For instance, a spear can attack at a couple of meters range with the stabby bit but is retty useless except as a quarterstaff if the opponent is standing on your toes.[/quote']

True, the 'stabby' bit can't be used effectively at close range, but the pole can used to sweep, strike, and so forth as a normal club.

 

In fact' date=' let us not over complicate: or things like that we could get away with defining an effective range: normally you can attack opponents in adjacent hexes with a HtH atatck but I can see nothing objectionable about simply saying that to attack effectviely with a spear you have to have a hex between you and your opponent. Call it +0 and we are good.[/quote']

I would handle it differently. I would allow attacks at the 'reach' range or less, but just like other weapons get penalties as the distance increases, a spear would get penalties as the distance decreases from the 'optimal' range.

 

Taking that one step further remove the concept of melee range and replace it with 'specific' range' date=' that being the point at which you can attack (adjacent hex by default, but could be any distance - you can not attack closer or further away without moving) as opposed to variable range (the normal 'range' advantage/power component).[/quote']

I think you are suggesting what I just pointed out above. But I'm not sure.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Ice9]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

This could be somewhat resolved by a "Reach" limitation for Stretching, probably -1, which encompassed the entire difference.

 

However, it still gets a bit clumsy applying it to a weapon - what about a "Reach" advantage for HtH attacks? Maybe +1/4 for fairly short reach, +1/2 for longer reach, -1/4 if you can't attack closer than the full reach. So a spear would be +0, a chain would be +1/4, and the monkey king's extending staff would be +1/2.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

This could be somewhat resolved by a "Reach" limitation for Stretching, probably -1, which encompassed the entire difference.

 

However, it still gets a bit clumsy applying it to a weapon - what about a "Reach" advantage for HtH attacks? Maybe +1/4 for fairly short reach, +1/2 for longer reach, -1/4 if you can't attack closer than the full reach. So a spear would be +0, a chain would be +1/4, and the monkey king's extending staff would be +1/2.

 

Except that giving it full Range costs +1/2, so this limited range would appropriately cost less than +1/2. That leaves "limited range - +1/4".

 

Which begs the question why Stretching cannot be eliminated entirely in favour of Limited Range on Strength (and any HTH attacks desired to be used, Damage Auras, etc.) and PSL's to offset Range Penalties. The fact that it needs to apply to all those different attacks provides one reason - it's more cumbersome. But then, isn't Stretching a lot more valuable to a Brick, Martial Artist or Weapons Master than to an Energy projector or a Mentalist? And don't we try to make the cost commensurate with the benefit?

[schir1964]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

This could be somewhat resolved by a "Reach" limitation for Stretching, probably -1, which encompassed the entire difference.

 

However, it still gets a bit clumsy applying it to a weapon - what about a "Reach" advantage for HtH attacks? Maybe +1/4 for fairly short reach, +1/2 for longer reach, -1/4 if you can't attack closer than the full reach. So a spear would be +0, a chain would be +1/4, and the monkey king's extending staff would be +1/2.

This could certainly work.

 

Personally, I see that the main difference between "Reach" and "Stretching" is that Reach defines the distance a character has for HtH/Manipulation without a change in the character's volume or form while Stretching defines the distance a character has for HtH/Manipulation with a change in volume and/or form.

 

In other words...

 

Reach allows one to extend a limb or object to a certain range, but whether the limb or object is extended or not, they still take up the same amount of volume or retain the same form.

 

Stretching allows one to extend a limb or object to a certain range, but when the limb or object is extended it's volume/form is not required to be maintained, and when the limb or object is retracted it's volume/form is not required to be maintained.

 

Is this just SFX, maybe... maybe not.

 

Addendum: This is why I think that Stretching should be a subset of Shapeshift since most applications of Stretching are changing one's form/volume to obtain the extra reach.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

.......................

 

I would handle it differently. I would allow attacks at the 'reach' range or less, but just like other weapons get penalties as the distance increases, a spear would get penalties as the distance decreases from the 'optimal' range.

 

 

I think you are suggesting what I just pointed out above. But I'm not sure.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Some attacks (like the spear point) could ONLY be used at a specific range. Other attacks (like the spear haft/quarterstaff) could be used at anything up to a certain range.

 

If we re-define 'melee' and 'ranged' as 'specific' and 'variable' range, we wind up with a way of defining a spear: a multipower with one slot for a stabby bit (which has a specific range of one hex) and a slammy bit (which has a variable range of up to one hex).

 

As Hugh points out 'ranged' is +1/2, so a variable range of (substantially) less than normal full range would have to be +1/4 (or -1/4 if the attack is already ranged).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

I actually wish this wasn't added to Stretching; removing velocity damage from it was a good start' date=' but this adds in to the number of things you have to limit out from it to represent anything that [i']isn't[/i] Mr. Fantastic.

 

I mean, when a spear has to be represented as:

Stretching, No Noncombat Stretching, Direct Only, No Velocity Damage, One "Body Part" Only ... it gets a bit clunky.

 

Spears, extending robot arms, telekinetic powers, spring attack - there are more forms of stretching which don't modify the shape of your body than which do.

There may be more forms, but are they collectively more common? Mr. Fantastic and Plasticman are major characters. Machine Man is not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

To increase the ability to customise characters you minimise the different uses of individual powers: I'm against 'logical' extras in powers, unless such extras are inevitable. The ability to change your dimensions to pass through small gaps is not inevitable for stretching, no matter how logical it is for many sfx.

[Ice9]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

Except that giving it full Range costs +1/2, so this limited range would appropriately cost less than +1/2. That leaves "limited range - +1/4".

I think that Reach could still cost up to +1/2, as it has certain advantages over a ranged attack. Primarily, it lets you use non-ranged maneuvers, like Grab. Also, it has the inherent advantages of HtH attacks, such as not breaking Invisibility. I'm not quite sure where to draw the line between the +1/4 and +1/2 levels - one or two hexes should definitely be +1/4, and reaching across the whole battlefield should be +1/2. Maybe set the dividing line at 6", given that's one move for a standard person?

 

There may be more forms, but are they collectively more common? Mr. Fantastic and Plasticman are major characters. Machine Man is not.

Are we playing the same game here? I've seen a lot more power-suit heroes than morphing ones, and that's in Champions, where Plasticman is at least on the table. In most other settings, morphic characters are even rarer. Besides, here's some basis things that reach could represent, and stretching, without significant limitations, wouldn't:

Wuxia: Spring attack, ki-projection (punching at a distance), chain-based weapons.

Fantasy: Spear / other reach weapon, magical extending staff, being inherently large.

Future: Extending cyber-arms, monowire weapon, exoskeleton armor.

Champions: All of the above.

[schir1964]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

Other threads that have touched on this topic:

[thread=48022]Shapeshift Alternative[/thread]

[thread=51284]Reach[/thread]

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Beast]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

your 5 pt power in effect allows the character to get out of entangles because of special effect

contortionist as a 3 point skill only allows +1 dc per pt made by vs entangles and this is more in line with Hero

 

Your 5 pt power is the is in effect the reverse of the the missile deflection discussion

you are able to deny a power by special effect

desolid is able to do this at a cost of 40 points and needing something that can hit you with out being having to have affects desolid

 

I'm not sure what the cost should be but it would need to be nearer to 40 points than 5

 

 

Desolidification (40 Active Points); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2)

is 27 active

 

maybe not able to pass through a 2x2 inch(real) might be worth -3/4 to -1

those 2 give us 23 to 20 points which I see as more in line as the cost

 

 

I've been thinking about shapeshifting and stretching and such and there are a number of things that 'logically' they should let you do. However' date=' such potential abilities either have to come with the power (and then you apply limits tot eh power if they are not present) or have to be paid for separately. I'm in favour of the latter approach. So...deformation...[/size']

Deformation

Body Affecting/Movement Power

Costs END

This is the power to move through obstacles that would normally prevent such movement. This causes no damage to the obstacles you circumvent.

For 5 points you can squeeze into small spaces as if your bones were made of rubber. This will allow you to slip many bonds and squeeze through the bars of a cage, but not a mesh (basically anything much bigger than a chain link fence and you can pass straight through). Each 1m of ‘obstacle’ (or part thereof) that you pass through slows your movement by 1m. You can also fold your body into spaces: you can turn yourself into a sphere or cube. GMs should consider a situational bonus to any concealment roll if there is somewhere you can hide that a normal person of your .

For 10 points you can squeeze through small spaces as if your flesh were a thick gel or bread dough, so that includes meshes, down to about 1cm squares.

For 20 points you can squeeze through small spaces as if you are made of water.

Interaction with other powers and game effects

Deformation provides no defensive abilities but it would be appropriate to link defences to deformation. Similarly Deformation gives no bonus to escaping a grab or entangle, but (although the GM may make individual exceptions depending on sfx). Although it is logical that this ‘mass shift’ would allow a form of stretching, it doesn’t – if you want to stretch, buy stretching and link.

[schir1964]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

Sean, I had created a new mechanic called "Protean" that was very similar to your "Deformation". But alas, it was on the old... old... threads and was lost in the last rebuild of these discussion boards. That was back in 1999/2000 or something like that.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

your 5 pt power in effect allows the character to get out of entangles because of special effect

contortionist as a 3 point skill only allows +1 dc per pt made by vs entangles and this is more in line with Hero

 

Your 5 pt power is the is in effect the reverse of the the missile deflection discussion

you are able to deny a power by special effect

desolid is able to do this at a cost of 40 points and needing something that can hit you with out being having to have affects desolid

 

I'm not sure what the cost should be but it would need to be nearer to 40 points than 5

 

 

Desolidification (40 Active Points); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2)

is 27 active

 

maybe not able to pass through a 2x2 inch(real) might be worth -3/4 to -1

those 2 give us 23 to 20 points which I see as more in line as the cost

 

I say you are wrong

 

First off being able to cancel entangles and (by your build) ignore all damage from attacks is worth 27 points.

 

Second, the deformation power specifically doesn't cancel entangle unless the GM allows it based on sfx AND (and this was not there, I accept, but...) the sort of sfx that I have in mind should be reflected in the build: an escapable entangle might be one where you get wrapped up in something with bits sticking out. That is worth a limitation.

 

Anyway, the system acknowledges that various power can affect entangles: shrinking, growth, stretching, whatever. That's rubbish too: build the damn thing properly. Entangle should be considered, by default, englobing and power proof (including teleport). If it isn't, you get a limitation.

 

So basic deformation is worth 5 points...IMO.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

Are we playing the same game here? I've seen a lot more power-suit heroes than morphing ones, and that's in Champions, where Plasticman is at least on the table. In most other settings, morphic characters are even rarer. Besides, here's some basis things that reach could represent, and stretching, without significant limitations, wouldn't:

Wuxia: Spring attack, ki-projection (punching at a distance), chain-based weapons.

Fantasy: Spear / other reach weapon, magical extending staff, being inherently large.

Future: Extending cyber-arms, monowire weapon, exoskeleton armor.

Champions: All of the above.

Using the game itself is not a fair comparison. You have to use the source material. Plasticman/Mr. Fantastic-type characters (and other shapeshifters) have long been a bit difficult to build and be viable in the HERO System. Powersuit characters have always been very efficient and powerful in Hero. I'd say that has a lot to do with why you see more of the latter in Champions. I've had many newbie players who, not yet familiar with HERO, wanted to build a shapechanging character.

 

I don't know much about Wuxia, but based on what little I do know, I wouldn't build those things with Stretching.

And reach weapons being built with Stretching is very clunky, and already has limitations on it (the 5 or 10 points at the most) that make it not-really-quite-stretching.

And being large has its own mechanism for additional reach that doesn't involve Stretching.

 

First off being able to cancel entangles and (by your build) ignore all damage from attacks is worth 27 points.

Nope! I assume you're referring to Desolid, Can't pass thru solid objects. That gives you immunity to all nonmental attacks that don't have Affects Desolid, with the limitation that you can't affect the physical world without a +2 Advantage on everything you might want to affect the physical world with. Those limitations make it a very different thing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

.....................

 

Nope! I assume you're referring to Desolid, Can't pass thru solid objects. That gives you immunity to all nonmental attacks that don't have Affects Desolid, with the limitation that you can't affect the physical world without a +2 Advantage on everything you might want to affect the physical world with. Those limitations make it a very different thing.

 

 

...er...well, quite. I was commenting on the suggestion that you could do what deformation does with desolid, and I don't think they are the same at all, which is why deformation might be a useful addition.

[Ice9]

Re: Passing through small gaps

 

Plasticman/Mr. Fantastic-type characters (and other shapeshifters) have long been a bit difficult to build and be viable in the HERO System. Powersuit characters have always been very efficient and powerful in Hero.

Really? Metamorphs often have access to the powerhouse which is Multiform, as well as other point-efficiency like variable defenses. Short of the often-disallowed "suit as a vehicle" build, power suit types have no special support. But I guess it depends how you build them, in either case.

 

That aside though, it's not like separating deformation from stretching is a huge power hit to shapeshifters. We're talking about an extra 10 points or so, and Stretching might even cost less. And for that matter, if you were previously buying Desolidification (not through solid objects) as a metamorph power trick, Deformation will replace it at the same or lower cost. Or put them both in a Multipower with Stretching, for maximum flexibility.