Breakout

[Sean Waters]

Thought:

 

Every 5 points you exceed the amount you need to establish a mental power translates to -1 on your opponent's breakout rolls.

 

To get 5 with standard effect is (5d6 = 15 standard effect for 25 points /3) about 8 points.

 

Make that 0 END: 12 points

 

Reduce the value because it can ONLY be used for reducing breakout rolls (say -2?) that gives you 4 points for -1 on opponent's breakout rolls (Let us assume that it is built like a talent and so just costs 4 points not 12/4). You could buy (for instance) an 8d6 Mind Control with -5 on breakout rolls for 60 points.

 

How does that work for you?

[director13]

Re: Breakout

 

Why not just call it five (points) to simplify, and have a similar price structure to other power options?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Breakout

 

Can't Negative Skill levels do that?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Breakout

 

Why not just call it five (points) to simplify' date=' and have a similar price structure to other power options?[/quote']

 

Because I wanted it to be cheaper than just buying another 1d6 AND that IS the right price (assuming I've costed it correctly). Buying +1 to breakout rolls is 2 points, so it shouldn't be more than 4 IMO to counter that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Breakout

 

Can't Negative Skill levels do that?

 

 

Sort of, but it would be horrific: you'd need to add 'range' and IPE (+3/4) and get rid of the END cost (mine are END free) and LOS and indirect and BOECV. That would make it cost 3 points basic x +3.75 (14 points) then you make it instant and linked to the mental power and you get 7 points: that is far too much and far too messy - better to just buy extra dice.

[secretID]

Re: Breakout

 

Sort of' date=' but it would be horrific: you'd need to add 'range' and IPE (+3/4) and get rid of the END cost (mine are END free) and LOS and indirect and BOECV. That would make it cost 3 points basic x +3.75 (14 points) then you make it instant and linked to the mental power and you get 7 points: that is far too much and far too messy - better to just buy extra dice.[/quote']

I don't know...maybe that tells us something.

 

I'm pretty leery of messing with Breakout rolls.

 

I doubt I'd allow the custom lim for only limiting breakout rolls, since that exact effect is already part of the power. I.e., the entirety of the dice not necessary to establish the level of effect are already devoted to adjusting the breakout roll, so isn't the mechanic for this effect already there in just buying more dice? If I did allow it, I wouldn't allow -2; I doubt I'd go over -1/2.

 

Of course, I may have missed something entirely.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Breakout

 

I don't know...maybe that tells us something.

 

I'm pretty leery of messing with Breakout rolls.

 

I doubt I'd allow the custom lim for only limiting breakout rolls, since that exact effect is already part of the power. I.e., the entirety of the dice not necessary to establish the level of effect are already devoted to adjusting the breakout roll, so isn't the mechanic for this effect already there in just buying more dice? If I did allow it, I wouldn't allow -2; I doubt I'd go over -1/2.

 

Of course, I may have missed something entirely.

 

One way to do it - I suppose - is to buy a number of dice and limit the maximum effect to (say) +10: everything over that automatically goes to breakout. That is not quite the same effect though.

 

My problem with breakout rolls is that they make mental powers, well, useless. In superheroic games where they are arguably most common, EGOs of 15-20 are routine, which means that, assuming around 12d6 effect (average 42 points) you get +27 to +22 effect: pretty good BUT if you are going for a +20 effect that gives you (at most) -1 on opponent's breakouts. With 15-20 EGO you get a 12- or 13- breakout roll: most of the time you are going to be incapable of maintaining your attack long enough to have any effect.

 

Given that it is generally far cheaper and more effective to buy +1 Breakout roll for 2 points than spend 2 points on mental defence (for all except Ego Attack), anyone who wants to take a character who can effectively ignore mental powers can - and cheaply: 10 point (+5 with breakout rolls) makes you all buy immune to mental effects even at very low levels.

 

Being able to reduce an opponent's breakout roll chance at a reasonable price does not seem like a bad thing.

[secretID]

Re: Breakout

 

One way to do it - I suppose - is to buy a number of dice and limit the maximum effect to (say) +10: everything over that automatically goes to breakout. That is not quite the same effect though.

 

My problem with breakout rolls is that they make mental powers, well, useless. In superheroic games where they are arguably most common, EGOs of 15-20 are routine, which means that, assuming around 12d6 effect (average 42 points) you get +27 to +22 effect: pretty good BUT if you are going for a +20 effect that gives you (at most) -1 on opponent's breakouts. With 15-20 EGO you get a 12- or 13- breakout roll: most of the time you are going to be incapable of maintaining your attack long enough to have any effect.

 

Given that it is generally far cheaper and more effective to buy +1 Breakout roll for 2 points than spend 2 points on mental defence (for all except Ego Attack), anyone who wants to take a character who can effectively ignore mental powers can - and cheaply: 10 point (+5 with breakout rolls) makes you all buy immune to mental effects even at very low levels.

 

Being able to reduce an opponent's breakout roll chance at a reasonable price does not seem like a bad thing.

I hear you. I don't know if there are good answers. But I think the issue is the overall mechanic. You might just want to mess with that.

 

I've thought about make the rolls less effective, but more frequent. Except for AP and DC limits, I don't think the issue is that mental powers are useless, so much as all-or-nothing - they have that tipping point. Changing the fact that subsequent breakout rolls step up on the time chart would be one part of doing that.

 

One thing I like to do is give the mentalist helpful senses, like Detect EGO. Proper choice of targets helps a lot.

 

Anyway, for your build, as a GM I'd want to know how this made sense as a matter of effect. If it did, I'd probably be more inclined to do it the second way you said - more dice, but limited to say you can only go for EGO + x. That seems like a more defensible effect, too - say, mental illusions that can't completely alter perceptions.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Breakout

 

That seems way too cheap. "Only to affect Breakout Rolls" should be about -1/2. That would put each -1 to about 5 points - still a bargain. And you'd still need to pay END for that. So 7 points for a -1 to Breakout Rolls at 0 END.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Breakout

 

That seems way too cheap. "Only to affect Breakout Rolls" should be about -1/2. That would put each -1 to about 5 points - still a bargain. And you'd still need to pay END for that. So 7 points for a -1 to Breakout Rolls at 0 END.

 

I think I'd stick to buying more dice at that price. A loss of -1.5 roll per 5 points is pretty negligible for the ability to use it to get higher effect rolls or get penalties to the breakout rolls. I'm not sure -2 is right either, though.

 

Maybe a Linked EGO drain that only affects breakout rolls...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Breakout

 

I think I'd stick to buying more dice at that price.

So would I. I was just calculating the cost per -1 to the roll. I based it not on Standard Effect, but on the average roll. But maybe I should have used SE instead.

 

10d6 - average 35, or -7 to the roll. Thus -1 costs 50/7 = 7.14. No END brings it to 7.14 x 1.5 = 10.71. And then "Only for Breakout Rolls" is applied. At -1/2 it's 7 points; at -3/4 it's 6 points; at -1 it's 5 points. I don't think there's any way you could convince me that it's more than a -1 limitation.

 

Using SE like Sean did, you get -1 for 25/3 = 8.333 points. No END brings it to 8.333 x 1.5 = 12.5. Only for Breakout Rolls brings it to 8, 7, or 6 points at -1/2, -3/4, and -1, respectively.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Breakout

 

Reducing breakout rolls has two effects: it makes any successful mental attack last longer on average AND, perhaps more importantly, it makes it more likely that an attack that hits and should affect a target actually will.

 

I know that the following cost formula does not work:

 

Mind control (only to reduce breakout rolls) + Mind control (everything but reducing breakout rolls = Mind Control

 

But, dammit, it should, or nearly.

 

By that token I'd say that actual mind controlling is more useful than preventing breakout, so the limitation should be worth more that -1. It puzzles me, it does.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Breakout

 

By that token I'd say that actual mind controlling is more useful than preventing breakout' date=' so the limitation should be worth more that -1. It puzzles me, it does.[/quote']

But the regular Mind Control dice are giving you both - effect and breakout penalties. So if you lose one of the two parts that's worth less than the other, that should be smaller than a -1 Limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Breakout

 

But the regular Mind Control dice are giving you both - effect and breakout penalties. So if you lose one of the two parts that's worth less than the other' date=' that should be smaller than a -1 Limitation.[/quote']

 

So what's worth more - the breakout roll alone, or the dice to get an effect alone? If they are both worth the same, then doing only one or the other is giving up 1/2 the effects of the power, making -1 an appropriate limitation value.

 

Of course, I fall in the same school of philosophy that Sean does - the sum of "only for reducing breakout rolls" and "not for reducing breakout rolls" should total 5 points per die.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Breakout

 

Let's not forget that you'd have to buy it separately for each Mental Power that allows Breakout Rolls, or we'd have to talk about a much higher price. I'd prefer to keep it simple and go with simple Negative Skill Levels myself (and not worry too much about requiring all kinds of Modifiers to make them work, since they are pretty specialized already).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Breakout

 

So what's worth more - the breakout roll alone, or the dice to get an effect alone? If they are both worth the same, then doing only one or the other is giving up 1/2 the effects of the power, making -1 an appropriate limitation value.

 

Of course, I fall in the same school of philosophy that Sean does - the sum of "only for reducing breakout rolls" and "not for reducing breakout rolls" should total 5 points per die.

Whoops! I seriously misspoke earlier and got it backwards. (mistyped?)

 

Context is everything.

 

12d6 Mind Control, only for Effect, no breakout roll penalty is clearly worth something, and is only a bit limited compared to a regular Mind Control, assuming you allow the dice to have an effect at all - in other words, there's the EGO-level threshhold you need and that's it. Maybe a -1/4 limitation, or maybe -1/2 at most.

 

12d6 Mind Control, only for Breakout rolls, no effect, is clearly worth nothing, since it can't have any effect. You get a -8 breakout roll, but there's nothing to break out of.

 

Add the two together, and you get regular Mind Control, and it should cost a total of 60 points.

 

This does not mean that say 8d6 MC + 4d6 Only for Breakout rolls should cost only 40 points.

 

Once you've achieved the desired threshhold of effect, the *only* purpose of additional dice is to increase the Breakout Roll penalty. So those extra dice that only increase the Breakout Roll penalty, are doing almost everything they could have been doing anyway, without the limitation.

 

Assuming a fairly normal game in which average characters have 10 EGO and PCs and baddies have say 13-18, unless their mentallists, the value of the limitation should vary depending on the base dice they get added to:

 

2d6 MC, plus extra dice for the Breakout Roll, fine. That'd be a -2 Lim.

4d6 MC, plus extra dice for the Breakout Roll. That's about a -1.5.

8d6 MC, plus extra dice for the Breakout Roll. Maybe -1.

12d6 MC, plus extra dice for the Breakout Roll. About -1/2.

16d6 MC, plus extra dice for the Breakout Roll, -1/4 if that.

[handleyj]

Re: Breakout

 

My problem with breakout rolls is that they make mental powers' date=' well, useless. In superheroic games where they are arguably most common, EGOs of 15-20 are routine, which means that, assuming around 12d6 effect (average 42 points) you get +27 to +22 effect: pretty good BUT if you are going for a +20 effect that gives you (at most) -1 on opponent's breakouts. With 15-20 EGO you get a 12- or 13- breakout roll: most of the time you are going to be incapable of maintaining your attack long enough to have any effect.[/quote']Wow, I totally disagree with that statement. In fact, I started a thread a while back asking about how to limit Metal Powers more, because I feel that they are too powerful and last too long.

 

But then I guess it depends on the power. Yeah, Mind Control is hard to pull off, as all the cool effects are +30. But Mental Illusions on the other hand, you only need a +10 to say "I make his teammates look like his enemies, and his enemies look like his teammates." And suddenly you have the villainous brick pounding on his teammates.

 

Then the duration is the Time Chart ... gah! If said brick misses his initial break out roll (and how can he possibly make it against a 12d6 effect ... with his 10 (maybe 12) EGO?) ... then he gets another on his next Phase ... but brother, if he misses that one, he's out for a full Turn ... and if he misses that one ... he's basically out for the rest of the combat!

 

Not to mention that now, the entire enemy team is having to defend themselves from a surprise attacker! And some of them may even try to attack the brick in order to "help" him breakout. So you've got the other team members "wasting" their phases trying to deal with their own brick!

 

I had to house rule that everyone gets a break out roll every Post Segment 12, and I really wanted to make it every Phase!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Breakout

 

This depends a lot on which character you're playing. The Mentalist might wonder why everyone gets a breakout roll after the hit, another after a phase and another in PS 12 when he gets to stay KO'd once he's below -20 STUN from a good hit from more conventional attacks.

 

I'd be OK with the mental powers bumping up to 10 per 1d6, but automatically cumulative without limit. Make All or Nothing a -1 limitation, and away we go.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Breakout

 

Wow, I totally disagree with that statement. In fact, I started a thread a while back asking about how to limit Metal Powers more, because I feel that they are too powerful and last too long.

 

But then I guess it depends on the power. Yeah, Mind Control is hard to pull off, as all the cool effects are +30. But Mental Illusions on the other hand, you only need a +10 to say "I make his teammates look like his enemies, and his enemies look like his teammates." And suddenly you have the villainous brick pounding on his teammates.

 

Then the duration is the Time Chart ... gah! If said brick misses his initial break out roll (and how can he possibly make it against a 12d6 effect ... with his 10 (maybe 12) EGO?) ... then he gets another on his next Phase ... but brother, if he misses that one, he's out for a full Turn ... and if he misses that one ... he's basically out for the rest of the combat!

 

Not to mention that now, the entire enemy team is having to defend themselves from a surprise attacker! And some of them may even try to attack the brick in order to "help" him breakout. So you've got the other team members "wasting" their phases trying to deal with their own brick!

 

I had to house rule that everyone gets a break out roll every Post Segment 12, and I really wanted to make it every Phase!

 

The first time a villain pulls the 'your team mates look like enemies' thing, sure - it is going to cause problems but, given that (at EGO +10) your team mates still act like your team makes and, given that most GMs would probably allow an INT/PER roll to notice the apparent change as well as a breakout roll, that trick gets old and useless - at least in open combats - quickly.

 

EGO+20 is very useful, of course, and overcomes some of those problems by also making people ACT like the other side, but for most superheroic types, they get a straight breakout roll there, so it is only effective 38% of the time, even when it does hit. EGO+30 is almost impossible to get to stick.

 

It is all about your experience of course, but mine is that breakout rolls make mental powers too random and flimsy.

[handleyj]

Re: Breakout

 

The first time a villain pulls the 'your team mates look like enemies' thing' date=' sure - it is going to cause problems but, given that (at EGO +10) your team mates still act like your team makes and, given that most GMs would probably allow an INT/PER roll to notice the apparent change as well as a breakout roll, that trick gets old and useless - at least in open combats - quickly.[/quote']

 

Actually the book says that to make enemies see their teammates look and act like enemies is only +10 for Mental Illusions. Of course it's up to the GM, but I don't see a "dumb brick" or a couple of VIPER Agents (who happen to be manning a V-12 Destructor Blaster Cannon) getting (or making) an INT/PER roll, even if the GM is mean enough to allow one. I could hear the lamentation of my players now if I started doing that...!

 

However I completely agree that Mind Control is too weak. +10 gets you nothing, and +20 is pretty lame as well (IMHO and according to Ultimate Mentalist). But I think that Mental Illusions is too strong.

 

Anyway, I'm just sayin' ... be careful about changing all Mental Powers, unless you're willing to redefine the effects for +10, etc. on some of them (namely Mental Illusions).

[CourtFool]

Re: Breakout

 

There are simply too many variables with Mental powers. The cleverness of the mentalist, the GM's interpretation (to say nothing of prejudice) of +10/+20/+30.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Breakout

 

IMO, a large part of the problem comes from the annoying vagueness of the MC levels.

 

Wow, I succeeded with my Mind Control and exceeded my target's EGO, so now I can make him do things he was going to do anyway? Thanks for nothing.

 

Wouldn't mind doing? Again thanks for nothing.

 

I sure hope this stuff was fixed/clarified in 6th. More concrete (and better) definitions, or at least more examples. Or even some definitions at all would be an improvement.

[secretID]

Re: Breakout

 

Actually the book says that to make enemies see their teammates look and act like enemies is only +10 for Mental Illusions.

That particular illusion is really overpowered - I don't know why it's only +10.

 

The only mentalist I've ever built was an illusionist type. I gave him invis., mental illusions, and a big PRE boost linked to shapeshift (e.g., hot babe, scary monster). Then I put him away because he was way too powerful.

 

Mental entangle can get in that class too, depending on DC limits.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Breakout

 

Actually the book says that to make enemies see their teammates look and act like enemies is only +10 for Mental Illusions. Of course it's up to the GM, but I don't see a "dumb brick" or a couple of VIPER Agents (who happen to be manning a V-12 Destructor Blaster Cannon) getting (or making) an INT/PER roll, even if the GM is mean enough to allow one. I could hear the lamentation of my players now if I started doing that...!

 

However I completely agree that Mind Control is too weak. +10 gets you nothing, and +20 is pretty lame as well (IMHO and according to Ultimate Mentalist). But I think that Mental Illusions is too strong.

 

Anyway, I'm just sayin' ... be careful about changing all Mental Powers, unless you're willing to redefine the effects for +10, etc. on some of them (namely Mental Illusions).

 

Sheesh - hadn't used MI for a while and hadn't realised that Look and Act was only +10. I quite agree with you.