New Mechanic: Block Sense

[schir1964]

Block Sense (Sense Affecting / Constant)

Block Sense prevents a character from perceiving information with the affected sense. The sense is blocked for as long as Endurance is expended.

 

Cost

Targeting Sense Group (10 Points)

Non-Targeting Sense Group (5 Points)

 

Adders

Lingering Effect (2 Points Per Second): Sense remains blocked even after Block Sense in no longer being used on the character. Effect lingers the total seconds that are purchased. The power's owner can choose to affect the target for less duration than purchased by only using the points needed for the duration wanted.

 

Modifiers

Area Effect (Varies): See Area Effect Advantage. Area Effect causes anyone in the area to be affected. It does not affect anyone outside the area nor prevent anyone outside from perceiving into the area affected (See Field Advantage).

Area Effect - Field (+1/2): The Field Modifier for Area Effect when applied prevents senses from perceiving into the field of affect (whether inside or outside the area).

 

Attempt To Combine Flash And Darkness Mechanics (Work In Progress)

 

Thoughts?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

It is going to need a defence and some way to prevent this mularkey:

 

Block sight group (5 points)

+55 seconds lingering

Instant -1/2

40 points

 

Also need to consider the effect of AoE: is the whole AoE sense blocked (like darkness) or just the people in it (like flash)?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

For 40 points, Sean?

 

Let's see...

 

Blindness FieldBlock Sense: Sight (5 points), AoE Radius, 32", Selective (+2 1/2 - 5 doublings), 0 END (+1/2) 20 points

 

With the extra 40, I'll buy +10 OCV with Blindness Field

 

Fire it off for 1 END, pick everyone you want in your 32" radius, hit them with +10 OCV and they just stay blind since you don't have to spend any END.

 

Or make it Uncontrolled with 1/2 END and pump in a dozen or so END.

 

Persistent makes it permanent, so that might be worth considering.

 

Or add some more sense groups so that guy with targeting hearing and radar sense isn't getting off so light. Uncontrolled is looking very good, now that I consider it - fire it off from a Multipower. Bring it up to 60 AP and it should have all sorts of bells and whistles. Hmmm...

 

Sensory Deprivation FieldBlock Sense: Sight (5 points), Hearing (3 points), Radio (5 point), Uncontrolled (+1/2), AoE Radius, 16", Selective (+2 1/4 - 4 doublings), AoE 1 hex accurate (+1/2), 1/2 END (+1/4) 58 points. Spend 10 - 20 END for 5 - 10 phases, and most of your opponents should be blinded for a turn or two.

[jye42]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

.... this power is darkness if you want it to effect a smaller area make it a small area

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

For 40 points, Sean?

 

Let's see...

 

Blindness FieldBlock Sense: Sight (5 points), AoE Radius, 32", Selective (+2 1/2 - 5 doublings), 0 END (+1/2) 20 points

 

With the extra 40, I'll buy +10 OCV with Blindness Field

 

Fire it off for 1 END, pick everyone you want in your 32" radius, hit them with +10 OCV and they just stay blind since you don't have to spend any END.

 

..........

 

Your point...?

 

It does seem a tad abuseable, doesn't it?

 

Flash and darkness are sufficiently similar to warrant this kind of discussion, but probably different enough that merging them would cause more problems than it solves. Regeneration, I'm looking at you

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

Remember how people felt when Regen was combined with Healing? This will have the same result. There is no reason for the combination. Flash and Darkness are sufficiently different, so that making a single power will just make it harder to model either.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

Your point...?

 

Much less obvious since I started combing over it, isn't it?

 

It does seem a tad abuseable' date=' doesn't it?[/quote']

 

It does, indeed. Not that, in and of itself, that's a reason to pan it.

 

But Flash and Darkness are workable now, so tinkering with them only makes sense if the replacement is a significant improvement. I don't see that here.

 

Flash and darkness are sufficiently similar to warrant this kind of discussion' date=' but probably different enough that merging them would cause more problems than it solves. Regeneration, I'm looking at you [/quote']

 

5e Regeneration, I presume. I understand it's back to a separate power under 6e.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

.......................

 

5e Regeneration, I presume. I understand it's back to a separate power under 6e.

 

Downloading 6e as we speak

[Fearghus]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

I agree with Bigbywolfe...

 

This power is flash with a few advantages to make it last longer. I see no need for a new power for this.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

Updated.

 

This is not an attempt to "improve" what already exists. The current mechanics work just fine for what they are intended to do. It is an attempt to create a mechanic that is more toolkit in nature than the current constructs.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

But you can already "toolkit" either existing power, and very easily. If you make a single power you have to "toolkit" just to get back to the originals. It is adding complexity (which isn't always bed) for no visible reason (which usuaully is). What can't you do with Flash or Darkness respectively that you could do with this amalgam of the two?

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

But you can already "toolkit" either existing power' date=' and very easily. If you make a single power you have to "toolkit" just to get back to the originals. It is adding complexity (which isn't always bed) for no visible reason (which usuaully is). What can't you do with Flash or Darkness respectively that you could do with this amalgam of the two?[/quote']

I would surmise then that you found the elimination of Armor and Force Field that was replaced with a single mechanic with which both could be built from also "adding complexity" and "for no visible reason"?

 

Nothing wrong with that opinion. As I implied, just another way to do the mechanic.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

No actually, but there is, IMO, a much broader difference between Flash and Darkness than there was between FF and Armor. YMMV. The way I see it, disabling the use of a sense (Flash) and blocking the use of a sense in a given area (Darkness) are, though the descriptions sound similar, very different mechanically. In 5ER you could model a Force Field with Armor or vice-versa, with a minimal amount of adjustment, so combining them made sense. You can not currently model Darkness with Flash and vice-versa without significant changes to how the Power functions.

 

Also, see Sean’s and Hugh’s concerns. I doubt there is a great way to price it without having one of the two common uses of the power end up being way too cheap or way too expensive in relation to the other.

 

EDIT: Also, your method above does not mention defense. Is there now no defense for Flash (or it's equivalent)? Or is there Block Sense Defense? If so, then you now have Darkness Defense built in with Flash Defense, unless you add yet more modifiers to the base Power, or have the Defense only work against Block Sense with certain modifiers attached. This seems clunky and over complicated to me. Again, YMMV.

 

EDIT 2.0: Hope I'm not coming across as argumentative. I have to ask again though, if the purpose of combining the Powers is purely for "Toolkitting" then what can you do with the combined power that you can't do, even more easily, with the individual powers?

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

No actually' date=' but there is, IMO, a much broader difference between Flash and Darkness than there was between FF and Armor. YMMV. The way I see it, disabling the use of a sense (Flash) and blocking the use of a sense in a given area (Darkness) are, though the descriptions sound similar, very different mechanically. In 5ER you could model a Force Field with Armor or vice-versa, with a minimal amount of adjustment, so combining them made sense. You can not currently model Darkness with Flash and vice-versa without significant changes to how the Power functions.[/quote']

And that may be, but in my opinion the main difference between the two is how Defense is handled (more on that below).

 

Also' date=' see Sean’s and Hugh’s concerns. I doubt there is a great way to price it without having one of the two common uses of the power end up being way too cheap or way too expensive in relation to the other.[/quote']

I've adjusted pricing and I'll wait to see what Hugh and Sean make of it since they seem to be able to analyze cost/price better than I do.

 

EDIT: Also' date=' your method above does not mention defense. Is there now no defense for Flash (or it's equivalent)? Or is there Block Sense Defense? If so, then you now have Darkness Defense built in with Flash Defense, unless you add yet more modifiers to the base Power, or have the Defense only work against Block Sense with certain modifiers attached. This seems clunky and over complicated to me. Again, YMMV.[/quote']

This is a good point and I've been thinking about this since Sean brought it up.

 

Why does Flash have a Defense?

Why doesn't Darkness have a Defense?

 

Why should there be a difference between these two?

If my character has Polarizing Goggles that protects him from blinding light by filtering it out, why can he see normally vs Blinding Light Of A Camera Flash but can't see normally vs a Field Of Blinding Light?

 

Perhaps I'm overlooking something here, but I don't think so.

 

EDIT 2.0: Hope I'm not coming across as argumentative. I have to ask again though' date=' if the purpose of combining the Powers is purely for "Toolkitting" then what can you do with the combined power that you can't do, even more easily, with the individual powers?[/quote']

You're not really coming across as argumentative. But I do like consistency. My earlier comment to you about combining mechanics was to find out where your "threshold" was concerning this. Was there any changes in 6th Edition where mechanics were eliminated and reintroduced as smaller components to be built up from that you also deemed as "adding complexity" and "for no visible reason"?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

I don't think I'd pay extra points for the ability to linger for extra seconds. Just keep spending END, or make it 0 END. 10 points for Sight, slap on 0 END for +1/2 and it's now 15 points (2.5 extra seconds). The only drawback is that it will drop if I''m KO'd.

 

This is even more pronounced if I'm already paying +1 for AoE and +1/2 for Field. That makes it 25 points, 30 at 0 END. I'd only get one extra second for that 5 point expenditure after applying the above advantages.

 

There's no compelling reason to merge the two abilities, and no improvement I see in doing soo.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

Hey, there was also a pretty big difference between Force Wall and Entangle, but...yeah, okay, I'm a little bitter, and tired. Time to go to bed. Heh.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

And that may be' date=' but in my opinion the main difference between the two is how Defense is handled (more on that below).[/quote']

 

 

I've adjusted pricing and I'll wait to see what Hugh and Sean make of it since they seem to be able to analyze cost/price better than I do.

 

 

This is a good point and I've been thinking about this since Sean brought it up.

 

Why does Flash have a Defense?

Why doesn't Darkness have a Defense?

 

Why should there be a difference between these two?

If my character has Polarizing Goggles that protects him from blinding light by filtering it out, why can he see normally vs Blinding Light Of A Camera Flash but can't see normally vs a Field Of Blinding Light?

 

Perhaps I'm overlooking something here, but I don't think so.

Well, to compare it to real world stuff, the difference is having a very bright camera flash go off in your face (Flash) and having someone turn the lights off in a windowless room (Darkness). Or, if you insist on using the same SFX, then you can’t see when the “Blinding Light Of A Camera Flash” goes off, but with your Polarized Goggles your eyes are protected from the “damage” of the Flash. With a “Field Of Blinding Light”, however, your goggles do not help, because the light isn’t blinding you, it’s just the only thing you can see. The light supersedes everything else.

To put it another way, Flash directly affects the sense it affects (I know, sounds like non-sense, but wait) while the Darkness actually affects the environment. This is why you can have defense against Flash, but not Darkness. It’s why someone outside a Darkness field cannot see through it (it is affecting the environment) but someone just outside the range of an AoE Flash has no affect what-so-ever (it’s only affecting the senses of those in its range).

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Block Sense

 

That does look better. It is actually more expensive than Darkness in 6e though that uses a different mechanic for area rather than an advantage you have to spend more to increase the area. Not sure how I feel about that: it makes large area darkness ridiculously expensive. Anyway - that's off topic.

 

A couple of observations though:

 

Defences:

 

Flash (to my mind, at least) tends to work by overcoming the maximum threshold of a sense - overwhelming it. Darkness tends to work (usually) by preventing the thing being detected 'getting to' the sense - going below the minimum threshold for detection. I don't really like the idea of a darkness field being an area of blinding light for the reason you identified: if you are wearing the right sort of eye protection you SHOULD be able to see in there. I suppose the answer is 'build it right - if you have a darkness field as a blinding light, put in a limitation: (doesn't work if target has 5 or more points of Flash Defence).

 

Scaling:

 

One good thing about Flash is that it scales: you spend more you get a more useful power. Darkness is a bit all or nothing - the only way around it is to have a sense it does not affect - which is entirely binary.